British migrant rights defender Andy Hall found guilty in a shock ruling by Bangkok court

[jimmybkk]

2 hours ago, joeyg said:

I'm pretty sure all my shoes and shirts I bought in California were made in those factories.  Some electronics as well... 

 

Yeah...  Still don't really get it... Are you saying you're totally into the whole child labour thing?

[jimmybkk]

2 hours ago, joeyg said:

Man that's a relief!

 

Ah ok.... Now I got it... You don't have any point to make, you're just a distraction... Thanks for clarifying. Good to know!

[Khun Han]

“Today’s verdict is an appalling end to a trial that never should have started. Thailand needs to take seriously its obligation to protect human rights activists rather than allowing its legal system to be hijacked by companies seeking to silence those exposing abusive practices."

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/another-human-rights-activist-unjustly-targeted/

[Jonathan Swift]

1 hour ago, hawker9000 said:

LOL.  IOW, if they don't agree with you, they should shut up.  'Very enlightened.

Icare 999 Simple minded and nonsensical defense of a system that everyone knows is crooked, whether they live there or not. A lot of the comments here come from people who HAVE spent time there, including me. If you don't want to hear what we have to say then why are you here? Is it your purpose in life to try to neutralize criticism? Nobody here will take you seriously. You have no grasp of how the real world works. Thailand's dark secrets and dark side are no longer secret. It's the 21st century, not the dark ages. Get used to it. If you don't like it why don't get your buddy Prayuth to make the changes he promised to make? And even HE declared the police to be corrupt. One of your own admits that to the world. Maybe you should move to the US and become a Trump supporter - you'd fit right in. Now turn your computer and your smart phone off and leave them off until you get an education. . We don't want to hurt your feelings with the truth. 

[Thechook]

16 hours ago, canopus1969 said:

Again Thailand is on center stage worldwide - and made themselves look a total bunch of pr*cks

Made the Australian news and not a pretty picture painted about Thailand and thier shoot the messenger policy.  Thailand doesn't like thier dirty laundry aired as they see it as an attack on thier image

[F4UCorsair]

13 hours ago, DM07 said:

Sooooo...not too long ago, Europe and the US were burning witches!

If that happened here, would you step back and say "let Thailand make it's way"?

Oh...of course you would, because you are Thai'er than Thai...that's why they all love you!

 

 

OK DM07, you responded in part to my request to explain your post above.  

 

You said you're a tireless campaigner for the world's downtrodden, especially those subject to human rights violations, and I accept that.

 

But, you failed to explain the bizarre last line, so can you please go ahead and do so.

 

I just don't understand your saying that I am Thai'er than Thai, and that's why they all love me.

 

It's ridiculous, at best, and downright bizarre, even quite crazy at worst.

 

So, let's hear your explanation.  

Edited September 20, 2016 by F4UCorsair
addition

[F4UCorsair]

Let me tell a story of supposed human rights violations.

 

Some years ago, in Vietnam, a Vietnamese guy set up a factory building model aircraft, the type that one uses radio controls to fly.  The hobby had evolved from the hobbyists building their own models from scratch, time consuming, and costly, to buying models that were largely built, called ARF's (Almost Ready to Fly), using a production line system, saving a lot of time, and money.  Yes, they were actually cheaper than buying the materials in the west and spending sometimes hundreds of hours building an aircraft.  He even had a factory build engines that he self branded, probably copies of recognized brands, but the spin off business employed more people.

 

He employed hundreds of locals, teaching them skills, admittedly limited skills, giving them an income, and more importantly, self esteem, and he housed them collectively, in tin sheds, hot and uncomfortable.  But, he wasn't paying them enough in the eyes of activists in the west.  I clearly remember the campaign to boycott his products on a radio control forum.

 

The campaign was so effective, he went out of business, hundreds of people lost jobs, they didn't gain skills, they had NO money, and seriously lost self esteem, and they were homeless, back to living on the streets.  They were also back to picking through rubbish bins for something to eat.

 

So, us moralists in the west must ask ourselves which is better, remembering that there are serious violations in our own countries, perhaps not as obvious because people like Andy Hall didn't see a cause, but there nevertheless.

 

I recall when I was a young pilot, desperate to gain experience, being underpaid, flying more than the legal number of hours, overloading (carrying more weight than the aircraft's certified load), doing work on the aircraft that should have been done by licensed mechanics, cleaning aircraft, and living rough in an outpost.  I was a union member, and their position was that if an employer couldn't, or wouldn't, pay the legal contract rate, and observe other legal requirements, he shouldn't have been in business, and I agreed, but I continued, because it was fundamental to my career success, just as it is for the pineapple factory workers, fundamental to their requirement to continue eating.

 

Of course there will be howls on TV accusing me as being part of the problem, but a willing part of the problem, and that will ALWAYS exist.  People need jobs, money, experience, food, self esteem, and it's all very well for a do gooder to want to shut it down, but at what cost??

 

The west demands cheaper products, and that drives what happens in these developing countries.  We are also part of the problem.

 

Incidentally, it all paid off for me, and I didn't have to fly over hours, or overloaded aircraft, do maintenance, change oil and plugs, and I stayed in 5 star hotels.  I lived happily ever after, but I bet everything I own, that there are young guys and girls doing exactly what I did way back................ because they must!!

 

I think that the Vietnamese guy may have re-emerged as Phoenix Models, maybe Seagull, but not sure, perhaps still operating as he did, but I have no idea.

 

I don't condone what's happening, but it's life.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by F4UCorsair
addition

[NRGF]

If he can not produce any evidence or witnesses then it's just hearsay.

 

[wprime]

18 hours ago, DiscoDan said:

Great news, he could not back up his claims with evidence in court and that's why he lost simple.

 

Citation required. If this comment is based on common sense then you'd be wrong. Truth is not an absolute defense in Thailand.

[bamukloy]

I dont really get the hysteria.

The guy will ultimately serve no jail time.

If it were a Thai escaping charges with no jail time, the whole TV peanut gallery would be up in arms screaming corruption

 

No-one here saw the evidence presented.

Obviously he could'nt put forward anything with teeth. Just like the bunch of opportunities he missed in the Kho Tao trial.

 

The trouble with guys like him is they rarely see these alleged abuses first hand,  they are often manipulated by other business groups,

 shlt-stirrers and do gooders.

 

There are many abuses in our own countries.

Immigrant workers shipped in on sham visas so rich companies can get them to work for half the legal rate.

why not start there?

[Thechook]

33 minutes ago, bamukloy said:

I dont really get the hysteria.

The guy will ultimately serve no jail time.

If it were a Thai escaping charges with no jail time, the whole TV peanut gallery would be up in arms screaming corruption

 

No-one here saw the evidence presented.

Obviously he could'nt put forward anything with teeth. Just like the bunch of opportunities he missed in the Kho Tao trial.

 

The trouble with guys like him is they rarely see these alleged abuses first hand,  they are often manipulated by other business groups,

 shlt-stirrers and do gooders.

 

There are many abuses in our own countries.

Immigrant workers shipped in on sham visas so rich companies can get them to work for half the legal rate.

why not start there?

If it was a thai who walked in his shoes I don't believe the comments would be any different.

[gemguy]

This should be no surprise.

If foreign Thai based Journalists are going to expose the wrong doings of Thai people or Thai companies or the Thai governments and Thai politicians with wealth and power and influence and the means and ways to legally and or underhandedly stifle the criticisms of those that expose their various forms of malfeasance then journalist have to be far more savvy as compared to the way they go about exposing them with journalistic "frontal assaults"

What did they think was going to happen after they internationally exposed and publically accused a Thai company of a number of wrong doings and crimes.

They published damaging accusations while they did their job well and got paid for it and then they thought what ???.....it would all be over ...job done...now move on to the next issue at hand here.....and lets say we publicly criticize and shame and expose the malfeasance of the current Thai government while our man in Thailand, Andy Hall ( and Andrew Drummond)  will sign their names to the public criticisms and public shaming and take the lead role in this journalistic endeavor.

You would think after all these years here in Thailand that they would do what needs to be done but do it with a well orchestrated plan that includes the means and ways of avoiding been hauled into a Kangaroo Court and sentenced in the manner we are witnessing.

Seriously......what were they thinking would happen while it seems they had no plan or any means and or ways or resources to be applied to avoid this from happening while they more or less let it happen to themselves in that regard seemingly believing that the truth and justice will prevail here in Thailand......lol

 

It is another fine example where if you are going to attack a person or company you do not just walk up to them with a knife in hand to confront them when they are armed with a tank.

Best to have a much more clever and or intelligent plan on how to assault a tank and walk away unscathed.

 

Cheers

Edited September 21, 2016 by gemguy

[Deepinthailand]

9 hours ago, joeyg said:

I'm pretty sure all my shoes and shirts I bought in California were made in those factories.  Some electronics as well... 

+1 exactly freedom of choice great point

[stander]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Natural Fruit could have cleaned up their act and approached their suppliers with incontravertible proof of their doing so. As could Betagro. Instead, they both tried to shoot the messenger. Betagro went bust, and I bet Natural Fruit will go the same way now, if they rely on exports. It's all they deserve. Good luck to them getting adequate recompense from Andy, but at least they saved some face for domestic consumption. Other, more ethical companies will take their market share and provide more jobs to enable them to do this .

Government inspectors visited and still visit the process plant regularly and no serious issues have been found, so there is no reason for Natural fruits to "clean up their act".

[Deepinthailand]

1 hour ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

 

There were plenty of witnesses and evidence to support his report.

The boss of Natural Fruit allegedly threatened one of the witnesses in the toilet during the trial according to several reports.

 

You say there is plenty of evidence yet none was used. Then you shoot yourself in the foot  saying "allegedly" that all the evidence hearsay and allegedly. Which Luckly enough has no place in a court of law.

[NongKhaiKid]

2 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

You say there is plenty of evidence yet none was used. Then you shoot yourself in the foot  saying "allegedly" that all the evidence hearsay and allegedly. Which Luckly enough has no place in a court of law.

Many issues have no place in a court of law but it's the Thai version of a legal ' system ' that' being written about !

[stander]

1 hour ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

 

There were plenty of witnesses and evidence to support his report.

The boss of Natural Fruit allegedly threatened one of the witnesses in the toilet during the trial according to several reports.

 

"The boss of Natural Fruit allegedly threatened one of the witnesses in the toilet during the trial according to several reports."

 

Hearsay, again nothing more than tittle-tattle 

[pookiki]

One must remember that Andy's situation is by no means unique.  Others are suffering the same fate.

Others who have fought against HR abuses in Thailand for a longer period of time than Andy.

See -

 

https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/tag/somchai-homlaor/

[joeyg]

6 hours ago, Shaunduhpostman said:

 

Of course it is just one isolated incident that may seem insignificant to you and to most people, but it is exemplary of the kinds of things that are happening to many people on a wide scale in Thailand and globally: they are increasingly being attacked by their rich minorities, the corrupt governments etc. The problems people are having everywhere  are directly connected to what is happening with the Fruit Company case, it is that powerful people are running amok and unchecked, accountable to no one and nothing. Some people do care about these things Joey, and I care and many  care that Natural Fruit Company abuses it's workers and now appears it will continue to do so with complete impunity, that it uses its influence to abuse the law and the courts in Thailand.

 

You were happy with your shoe store wage, and you were taken care of but it didn't materialize out of the kindness of your employers' hearts. I am sure you recall a time when American workers fought for and got things like a weekend or a free education. People fought for these things and this is what is going on here, or appears to be, so for that reason it is interesting and I care though it is just some no name fruit company in the faraway swamps of Thailand. The Burmese workers had serious complaints, among them were not being paid, if I remember correctly. This is an issue for many people who work in Thailand, not least of whom would be Thais, so this is a case that for once  people are not just getting screwed and nothing is coming of it.

 

I am sure Americans would be interested in how an entire country runs itself in this kind of manner, that paying people who work extremely hard  is a mere option and if you try to do anything about it you could find yourself in prison and with a 10 million pounds sterling compensation bill to pay. Just because people don't care about something doesn't mean it isn't important and later on they may care if they don't now. 

 

If there were more of these fights back home, Americans wouldn't be in the kind of shape you say they are in. What is happening to people in America or anywhere is not in essence any different than this kind of garbagio from the Natural Fruit Company: corrupt justice systems, big business bought off corrupt governments, attacks on workers rights, wages and general well being and farcical elections, among other things, I'm sure I don't have to tell you.

friends ask me what Thailand is like.  One of the things i often say is you really have to try hard to get in trouble here.  Unlike the Nanny United States.  Thailand is pretty cool...  I fought "the Man" for years in the streets .  Took my lumps, wound up in jail and have a record because of it.  I gave it a good shot  and did things I won't state in an open forum.  I gave up.  You gotta pick your battles.  If this is yours stop talking and do something about it.

[Yann55]

20 hours ago, Alive said:

The worst thing about today in Thailand is no one really cares. This guy can go to jail and be forgotten. Thais don't even know what happens in their country and when they hear they don't care. No one gets upset and angry about the abuse going on . No ones cares and the western world with its business first attitudes empowers the abusive governments and corporations. The world needs an enema!

 

Sir, you make some very valid points in this post and the one you made just before. But it seems that your (justified) anger keeps you from seeing the bigger picture. In the first post, for example, you say that Thais and expats are waking up to the reality of this regime, but you do realize, don't you, that this defamation thing has been going on for a long time ? It's here to protect not a regime, but the rich and powerful. The regimes themselves actually have no other agenda, other than to serve and to protect ... the rich. That is what they've all been doing. The posturing, the words, the declarations, that's just wind, never mind what color code.

 

You also narrow the issue when you say that the problem 'in Thailand' today is that no one really cares. Even though it's entirely true, the problem is a lot wider than that. In the Western world, people don't care a bit either, they just react (and for a very short period) to what the media decide to put forward, and that in turn is why and how terrorist organizations terrorize the 'civilized' world : they manipulate the media, who in turn manipulate the public.

 

There is less and less concern, all over the world, for deeper and more meaningful issues such as Human Rights, because the general trend is to focus on oneself, the perfect illustration of this being the 'selfie', which should really be re-named the selfish.

 

People around the world are engulfed, lost, hypnotized in screens, big, medium or small, which are the sociological version of the black hole. To adress that problem, we need first to see it for what it is, as it is, and to see how huge it is. But most humans simply do not see it, because it's extremely difficult to be both 'in the car' and 'watching the car go by'. It's also called thinking out of the box, and it poses a challenge that few people actually grasp, even though the expression itself is very common.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Yann55

[joeyg]

6 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

 

Hahaha... You're back... Nice to see you again, and to see that you're still toeing the party line. Now remind me... what was the point of that post of yours again...?

"Toeing the party line"  LOL far from it.  I fought against "The Man" for years.  You couldn't imagine, really.  I'm retired now and watching the show.  My last battle is controlling my mind.  Trying my best to follow Buddhas instructions.  It ain't easy.  Ya gotta pick your battles though.

[Khun Han]

30 minutes ago, stander said:

Government inspectors visited and still visit the process plant regularly and no serious issues have been found, so there is no reason for Natural fruits to "clean up their act".

 

If the government inspectors are doing a proper job, and Natural Fruit are doing no wrong, then it would be easy for Natural fruit to show this to their customers and to publicly debunk Finnwatch's claims, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if the government inspectors are being 'looked after' by Natural Fruit (now, that would be an unusual behaviour in Thailand, wouldn't it?), and Finnwatch has solid evidence of worker abuse (which it has), then the only recourse for Natural Fruit is the Thai courts, citing government inspector support, which the Judges will be inclined to believe over Finnwatch, as is their wont. Make sense? No, of course not: you have a grudge against Andy Hall, and all of us who read and write on the Koh Tao murders threads know why.

[Khun Han]

33 minutes ago, stander said:

"The boss of Natural Fruit allegedly threatened one of the witnesses in the toilet during the trial according to several reports."

 

Hearsay, again nothing more than tittle-tattle 

 

And you dearly want it to be hearsay.

[stander]

 

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

If the government inspectors are doing a proper job, and Natural Fruit are doing no wrong, then it would be easy for Natural fruit to show this to their customers and to publicly debunk Finnwatch's claims, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if the government inspectors are being 'looked after' by Natural Fruit (now, that would be an unusual behaviour in Thailand, wouldn't it?), and Finnwatch has solid evidence of worker abuse (which it has), then the only recourse for Natural Fruit is the Thai courts, citing government inspector support, which the Judges will be inclined to believe over Finnwatch, as is their wont. Make sense? No, of course not: you have a grudge against Andy Hall, and all of us who read and write on the Koh Tao murders threads know why.

The judges heard two sides; they choose to give credence the Natural Fruits evidence, end of story.

Yes, I dislike Hall and his ilk, he is nothing more than a money grabbing charlatan, who has not done an honest day’s work in his life.

[stander]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And you dearly want it to be hearsay.

Give me the proof, that's all I need, without it it's just good ole tittle-tattle.

[Khun Han]

Just now, stander said:

 

The judges heard two sides; they choose to give credence the Natural Fruits evidence, end of story.

Yes, I dislike Hall and his ilk, he is nothing more than a money grabbing charlatan, who has not done an honest day’s work in his life.

 

It's not the end of the story.

And you have libelled Andy Hall. We all know why: It's because of his involvement in the Koh Tao murders defence.

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, stander said:

Give me the proof, that's all I need, without it it's just good ole tittle-tattle.

 

If the worker stepped up and made a deposition in court, you would explain it away, just as you do all the evidence that doesn't fit your unsavoury agenda on the Koh Tao murders case. Like I said, people like you are  not in these discussions to get to the truth, you're here to push an agenda.

[joeyg]

11 minutes ago, stander said:

 

The judges heard two sides; they choose to give credence the Natural Fruits evidence, end of story.

Yes, I dislike Hall and his ilk, he is nothing more than a money grabbing charlatan, who has not done an honest day’s work in his life.

Finally.  You won't get far with the truth here though.

[Bkk Brian]

53 minutes ago, stander said:

"The boss of Natural Fruit allegedly threatened one of the witnesses in the toilet during the trial according to several reports."

 

Hearsay, again nothing more than tittle-tattle 

This it tittle tattle? Plenty of threats were made againts the witnesses throughout the whole trial even the intial

 

How can you get proof if the police do not investigate impartially? Without that then it always remains hearsay, but enough concerns for a previous witness to be provided official witness protection after bullet casings where dropped in the court room and the British Government asking for an investigation. Thats what happens when you have a strong witness that can sway the case.

 

[stander]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

This it tittle tattle? Plenty of threats were made againts the witnesses throughout the whole trial even the intial

 

How can you get proof if the police do not investigate impartially? Without that then it always remains hearsay, but enough concerns for a previous witness to be provided official witness protection after bullet casings where dropped in the court room and the British Government asking for an investigation. Thats what happens when you have a strong witness that can sway the case.

 

People just need to see proof, not endless conspiracy theories