Poland debates total abortion ban

[webfact]

Poland debates total abortion ban

 

 

WARSAW: -- The Polish parliament has begun debating proposals that would implement a total ban on abortion, despite already having some of Europe’s most restrictive laws.

 

Currently pregnancy terminations in Poland are only allowed in cases of rape, incest or if the mother or baby have serious health problems.

 

The Catholic Church supports the proposals, which would also see sex eduction curbed, but the ruling Law and Justice party, fearful perhaps of a public outcry, appears reluctant to give its full backing.

 

If adopted on Friday the new law could see doctors who perform abortions, and women who undergo the medical procedure, jailed for five years.

It would also put Poland in a group of eight states in the world, including El Salvador, Guatemala and the Vatican.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-09-23

[williamgeorgeallen]

sounds good to me. murder is murder, call it what you want but it is still murder. so many good parents who cant have their own kids wanting to adopt and  all these babies being killed.

[KarenBravo]

7 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

sounds good to me. murder is murder, call it what you want but it is still murder. so many good parents who cant have their own kids wanting to adopt and  all these babies being killed.

 

Yes......make it illegal and let's return to the days of back-street butchers and wire coat-hangers.

[halloween]

Strange isn't it, that men feel quite comfortable making laws about women's reproductive rights, in most cases with the support of the catholic church. Imagine the uproar if a majority female government passed a law requiring mandatory chemical castration of rapists.

[williamgeorgeallen]

8 minutes ago, halloween said:

Strange isn't it, that men feel quite comfortable making laws about women's reproductive rights, in most cases with the support of the catholic church. Imagine the uproar if a majority female government passed a law requiring mandatory chemical castration of rapists.

womans reproductive rights? you mean the right to murder their young. think most people would be behind castrating rapists, especially pedophiles if if it was a woman who bought in the legislation.

[williamgeorgeallen]

28 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

 

Yes......make it illegal and let's return to the days of back-street butchers and wire coat-hangers.

yes and lets ban cars because they cause accidents and go back to the days of riding horses.

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

womans reproductive rights? you mean the right to murder their young. think most people would be behind castrating rapists, especially pedophiles if if it was a woman who bought in the legislation.

Pray a little harder and maybe god will stop it.

[KarenBravo]

Typical pro-lifer. Bet you support the death penalty, too, eh?

[helpisgood]

Actually, I favor legalizing abortions. 

 

However, isn't the rape exception logically inconsistent with, from what I understand, is the rationale for making them illegal, viz., that abortion is a form of murder?  I can certainly understand the other two exceptions.  One is explicitly concerned about health.  And with incest, from what I have heard and read, there are also health risks.

 

I, of course, can very much understand a woman's feelings about having the baby of the man who had raped her.  Yet, that’s the woman's perspective.  So, to be consistent with this law, why does a baby's life become less meaningful or meaningless merely because his or her father was a bad actor?  It's not the baby's fault.  I do not think we need any research to discover that children conceived by a rape can turn out to be wonderful people who are able to contribute to society.  Thus, their lives are just as meaningful.  

 

I do not want to be in the position where I am telling a raped woman that she must keep the baby.  In fact, I favor the woman's choice to terminate.  My point is that if anti-abortionists want to be consistent, then there must not be a rape exception.  Otherwise, it reveals a flaw in their thinking.  Maybe it's not about the baby's life, but it's really about being anti-woman.  Maybe it’s about imposing the values of people in power, including a dogmatic church, on women and thus limiting their choices about what they can do with their own bodies.  

[RuamRudy]

Fewer babies being born means fewer potential contributors to the Vatican bank, which is already under threat due to increasing people recognising that bigoted superstition has no place in a modern society. Ban abortions and add to that the imposition of Victorian sensibilities when it comes to sex education for our young people, and the future could, potentially, be a little less shaky for the Holy See.

[williamgeorgeallen]

24 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Typical pro-lifer. Bet you support the death penalty, too, eh?

the death penalty is also murder. you can read my posts on the matter. once we start telling society it is ok to murder people (weather they are in the womb or in a jail) it is a slippery slope leading away from civilized society.

Edited September 23, 2016 by williamgeorgeallen

[williamgeorgeallen]

25 minutes ago, halloween said:

Pray a little harder and maybe god will stop it.

god helps those who help themselves. that means god wont do anything as per normal, if s/he exists. not sure why you would think because i am pro life that i would be religious. are atheists pro abortion? another poster assumed that because i am anti abortion that i would be pro death penalty. where do people get these ideas from?

[crankshaft]

Looking at the photo in the OP....how many woman do you see? Until a man can get pregnant he should have absolutely no say in woman reproductive rights 

[Mosha]

Watching BBC reporting on the sole N Dakota clinic. The reporter asked what would the do if abortion is banned. One woman said they'd find a way, either a pen or coat hanger. You ban it, you drive it underground.
Pro lifers are actually mostly pro birth, nowhere to be found as the baby grows up in a life of poverty.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[halloween]

2 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

god helps those who help themselves. that means god wont do anything as per normal, if s/he exists. not sure why you would think because i am pro life that i would be religious. are atheists pro abortion? another poster assumed that because i am anti abortion that i would be pro death penalty. where do people get these ideas from?

Perhaps from your inability to differentiate between a cluster of cells unsustainable without the mother and a person.

[Grouse]

Regressive move.

 

Reflection of the times in which we live with the lunatics taking over asylum.

[williamgeorgeallen]

57 minutes ago, halloween said:

Perhaps from your inability to differentiate between a cluster of cells unsustainable without the mother and a person.

when you were born you were a cluster of cells unable to survive without your mum. there needs to be one rule. allow murder or dont allow it. when does the cluster of cells become a human. 3 weeks, 3 months? or the day it is born? or when it can sustain itself after high school some time?

edit, when do you think a human becomes a human? not that there is a right answer.

Edited September 23, 2016 by williamgeorgeallen

[halloween]

1 hour ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

when you were born you were a cluster of cells unable to survive without your mum. there needs to be one rule. allow murder or dont allow it. when does the cluster of cells become a human. 3 weeks, 3 months? or the day it is born? or when it can sustain itself after high school some time?

edit, when do you think a human becomes a human? not that there is a right answer.

When I was born I was quite able to survive without the life support of my mother. I certainly required support and care, but I was a viable living creature. That care could have been provided by any other reasonably mature person.

Correct, there is no right answer, but a single cell formed at conception is definitely the wrong answer. As is your black and white accusations of murder.

[williamgeorgeallen]

10 minutes ago, halloween said:

When I was born I was quite able to survive without the life support of my mother. I certainly required support and care, but I was a viable living creature. That care could have been provided by any other reasonably mature person.

Correct, there is no right answer, but a single cell formed at conception is definitely the wrong answer. As is your black and white accusations of murder.

many issues are not black and white, however murder is. will ask once more. at what stage does that cluster of cells become a human? the day it is born?

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

many issues are not black and white, however murder is. will ask once more. at what stage does that cluster of cells become a human? the day it is born?

As you stated there was no right answer, I assumed the question was rhetorical, and didn't require one. But different countries have varying rulings as decided by their governments and acceptable to them. Not being likely to ever become pregnant, it is a decision I would leave to the woman or girl concerned.

But I certainly don't agree with the blanket ban imposed by the male-only priests of the catholic church, and think that religion has no place in government, especially when it imposes religious dogma on those who reject their myths.

[DM07]

5 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

the death penalty is also murder. you can read my posts on the matter. once we start telling society it is ok to murder people (weather they are in the womb or in a jail) it is a slippery slope leading away from civilized society.

Except for the "people" in the womb, they are not even "living"!

They are bunch of cells and until a certain time, they don't feel, think, breath, eat...

That is science...you know,...the stuff you most likely call "devils' work"!

Edited September 23, 2016 by DM07

[DM07]

5 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

god helps those who help themselves. that means god wont do anything as per normal, if s/he exists. not sure why you would think because i am pro life that i would be religious. are atheists pro abortion? another poster assumed that because i am anti abortion that i would be pro death penalty. where do people get these ideas from?

There most likely is no God, so ...back to the drawing- board!

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, helpisgood said:

Actually, I favor legalizing abortions. 

 

However, isn't the rape exception logically inconsistent with, from what I understand, is the rationale for making them illegal, viz., that abortion is a form of murder?  I can certainly understand the other two exceptions.  One is explicitly concerned about health.  And with incest, from what I have heard and read, there are also health risks.

 

I, of course, can very much understand a woman's feelings about having the baby of the man who had raped her.  Yet, that’s the woman's perspective.  So, to be consistent with this law, why does a baby's life become less meaningful or meaningless merely because his or her father was a bad actor?  It's not the baby's fault.  I do not think we need any research to discover that children conceived by a rape can turn out to be wonderful people who are able to contribute to society.  Thus, their lives are just as meaningful.  

 

I do not want to be in the position where I am telling a raped woman that she must keep the baby.  In fact, I favor the woman's choice to terminate.  My point is that if anti-abortionists want to be consistent, then there must not be a rape exception.  Otherwise, it reveals a flaw in their thinking.  Maybe it's not about the baby's life, but it's really about being anti-woman.  Maybe it’s about imposing the values of people in power, including a dogmatic church, on women and thus limiting their choices about what they can do with their own bodies.  

You can consider the baby's life sacred if you wish, but in REAL LIFE people are not considered sacred. Your country and mine have armies of professional killers paid for by taxpayers, wars are everywhere in the world, people die in the Med just because they want to move to rich countries etc etc etc.

Anti abortionists would have a stronger case if human life AFTER birth was a respected as they claim it is before.

 

Personally I fail to see the point in forcing women to have babies if they grow up to die of malnutrition or war.

 

All babies should be wanted BY THE MOTHER, and I disagree that a woman should be forced to have a child just so sterile.

couples can adopt it.

 

Lastly, no man should be allowed to force a woman to have an unwanted baby, given that they are unable to do so themselves.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

many issues are not black and white, however murder is. will ask once more. at what stage does that cluster of cells become a human? the day it is born?

That's like asking women that hate men, but love even male children, when a male child becomes a hated man.

 

IMO till the foetus becomes able to live independently, it is the woman's choice as to carry the parasite or not.

 

BTW, if that ban came in, it would mean Zika babies would have to be carried to term. Is that a good thing? Would you want a Zika baby? Does god want Zika babies? Do we want a god that wants Zika babies?

[Pimay1]

22 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

it is the woman's choice as to carry the parasite or not.

Parasite? Oh my, my.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Pimay1 said:

Parasite? Oh my, my.

What don't you understand about "parasite"? That is the correct technical term for an organism that uses another to support itself.

 

A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. Parasites can cause disease in humans. Some parasitic diseases are easily treated and some are not.Jul 28, 2016

CDC - Parasites

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by thaibeachlovers

[Pimay1]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What don't you understand about "parasite"? That is the correct technical term for an organism that uses another to support itself.

 

A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. Parasites can cause disease in humans. Some parasitic diseases are easily treated and some are not.Jul 28, 2016

 

CDC - Parasites

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/

 

I understand fully what a parasite is. To me it is unthinkable to call a baby a parasite.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Pimay1 said:

I understand fully what a parasite is. To me it is unthinkable to call a baby a parasite.

Why? That's what it is till it is independently viable - FACT.

Try telling a woman being forced to carry a baby she hates that it isn't a parasite, and see what reaction you get. If this law goes through, they'll be using the coat hangers again. I thought European people had moved beyond that barbarity.

[williamgeorgeallen]

1 hour ago, DM07 said:

Except for the "people" in the womb, they are not even "living"!

They are bunch of cells and until a certain time, they don't feel, think, breath, eat...

That is science...you know,...the stuff you most likely call "devils' work"!

a baby in a womb is not living? champ not sure what sort of science you are into but if it is cooking crack you need to lay of testing too much of  your product. a baby in the womb has a beating heart for almost the whole time of its development. it has a brain and of course it is thinking and moving. this can be shown in ultra sounds, ultra sounds i saw when my kids were developing in my girls womb. why do you nutters keep trying to bring god or the devil into this? makes you sound like crackpots.

[williamgeorgeallen]

23 minutes ago, Pimay1 said:

I understand fully what a parasite is. To me it is unthinkable to call a baby a parasite.

the vast majority of babies are wanted and should never be called a parasite. even the small number of unwanted babies have couples out there ready and wanting to adopt.