The ' R ' And The ' L ' Letters

[baennaenae]

Everything is ' L ' in Thai spoken language but that doesn't mean the ' R ' doesn't exist. How do you know if the word contains ' r ' and what do you do?

Since I haven't used a lot so I get confused with some words, too. ONLY A FEW WORDS though !

Pai la,

Cheers

[Richard W]

Everything is ' L ' in Thai spoken language but that doesn't mean the ' R ' doesn't exist. How do you know if the word contains ' r '...

Look it up in a dictionary! If it's spelt with ร it has an 'r'; if it's spelt with ล or ฬ it has an 'l'. If you can't tell the tone and the /l/ is word-initial, you have to look it up under ร, ล, หร and หล. (Thai words don't start with ฬ.)

If you're an academic researcher, you could try looking at the form in dialects. Southern Thai preserves the /r/, Northern and North-Eastern Thai change it to /h/, whence such doublets as รัก [H]rak and ฮัก [H]hak for 'love'. Just to complicate matters, North-Eastern Thai gets doublets in /l/ by borrowing the Central Thai word in /r/, and Pali/Sanskrit words are likely to be pronounced with /l/ in Northern and North-Eastern Thai, though the Lanna and old Lao script spellings will then have the equivalent of ร.

...and what do you do?

I go with the flow if no-one else if pronouncing /r/, though I'm told I shouldn't.

[s.sophon]

I think it depends on the Thai person you are talking to. Sometime he/she comes from Issarn or Chiang Mai where R are substitute for L or H.

[baennaenae]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects but I like listening to the dialects conversation. ( where do you place the ' s ', is it at the end of dialect ? or converstion? )

I would go with the flow, too, if I were a learner and that is a big problem when you don't know how the words are spelt. We don't pronounce a something letter and ' L " as in a word either , for example, klaang = middle, lot of people just say ' Kaang ' instead which makes it harder for themselves when they speak English, for examp, ' What time does your _ock (clock) say? ( Excuse me for saying )

or

a tain = a train

lepeat = repeat

legister = register

fower = flowers

leading = reading

Which affect foreigners especially those who are learning Thai because no one tells them the correct words ( associate with the ' R ' and ' L ' only )

Cheers, got to go get the stickers

[Pink Mist]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects but I like listening to the dialects conversation. ( where do you place the ' s ', is it at the end of dialect ? or converstion? )

I would go with the flow, too, if I were a learner and that is a big problem when you don't know how the words are spelt. We don't pronounce a something letter and ' L " as in a word either , for example, klaang = middle, lot of people just say ' Kaang ' instead which makes it harder for themselves when they speak English, for examp, ' What time does your _ock (clock) say? ( Excuse me for saying )

or

a tain = a train

lepeat = repeat

legister = register

fower = flowers

leading = reading

Which affect foreigners especially those who are learning Thai because no one tells them the correct words ( associate with the ' R ' and ' L ' only )

Cheers, got to go get the stickers

why do you think they call me blonco

[baennaenae]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects but I like listening to the dialects conversation. ( where do you place the ' s ', is it at the end of dialect ? or converstion? )

I would go with the flow, too, if I were a learner and that is a big problem when you don't know how the words are spelt. We don't pronounce a something letter and ' L " as in a word either , for example, klaang = middle, lot of people just say ' Kaang ' instead which makes it harder for themselves when they speak English, for examp, ' What time does your _ock (clock) say? ( Excuse me for saying )

or

a tain = a train

lepeat = repeat

legister = register

fower = flowers

leading = reading

Which affect foreigners especially those who are learning Thai because no one tells them the correct words ( associate with the ' R ' and ' L ' only )

Cheers, got to go get the stickers

why do you think they call me blonco

Who are those that call you ' blonco ' ?

[baennaenae]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects but I like listening to the dialects conversation. ( where do you place the ' s ', is it at the end of dialect ? or converstion? )

I would go with the flow, too, if I were a learner and that is a big problem when you don't know how the words are spelt. We don't pronounce a something letter and ' L " as in a word either , for example, klaang = middle, lot of people just say ' Kaang ' instead which makes it harder for themselves when they speak English, for examp, ' What time does your _ock (clock) say? ( Excuse me for saying )

or

a tain = a train

lepeat = repeat

legister = register

fower = flowers

leading = reading

Which affect foreigners especially those who are learning Thai because no one tells them the correct words ( associate with the ' R ' and ' L ' only )

Cheers, got to go get the stickers

why do you think they call me blonco

Who are those that call you ' blonco ' ?

If they are Thai, you are lucky that they call you ' blonco ' not ' bonco ' because ...

bonco sounds like bonk-ko in Thai

If being called ' bonk-ko ' then you may become ' bonk ' and ' bonk' in Thai and I meant in Thai is Ting-tong

But if yo don't want to be bonk-ko or bonk you may change it to ' bong-go ' and that is a cute name

bong = is a water pipe used for smoking marijuana or other drugs.

gra-bong = a long weapon (not a gun but maybe a big stick don't know what you guys call them) that a security guard carries on his waist while on duty.

go = a chinese word for ' brother '

To your question above, I don't have a clue why they call you ' blonco ' or

Maybe you ...................... a horse

[Pink Mist]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects but I like listening to the dialects conversation. ( where do you place the ' s ', is it at the end of dialect ? or converstion? )

I would go with the flow, too, if I were a learner and that is a big problem when you don't know how the words are spelt. We don't pronounce a something letter and ' L " as in a word either , for example, klaang = middle, lot of people just say ' Kaang ' instead which makes it harder for themselves when they speak English, for examp, ' What time does your _ock (clock) say? ( Excuse me for saying )

or

a tain = a train

lepeat = repeat

legister = register

fower = flowers

leading = reading

Which affect foreigners especially those who are learning Thai because no one tells them the correct words ( associate with the ' R ' and ' L ' only )

Cheers, got to go get the stickers

why do you think they call me blonco

Who are those that call you ' blonco ' ?

If they are Thai, you are lucky that they call you ' blonco ' not ' bonco ' because ...

bonco sounds like bonk-ko in Thai

If being called ' bonk-ko ' then you may become ' bonk ' and ' bonk' in Thai and I meant in Thai is Ting-tong

But if yo don't want to be bonk-ko or bonk you may change it to ' bong-go ' and that is a cute name

bong = is a water pipe used for smoking marijuana or other drugs.

gra-bong = a long weapon (not a gun but maybe a big stick don't know what you guys call them) that a security guard carries on his waist while on duty.

go = a chinese word for ' brother '

To your question above, I don't have a clue why they call you ' blonco ' or

Maybe you ...................... a horse

quite simply it was from a post a long time ago asking about the "L" and "R" function, so my R became an L

[Rikker]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects

I assume you are using the word dialect to mean ภาษาถิ่น. The linguist's definition of "dialect" is simply a certain variety of a language. Even if a dialect is spoken by the majority of people (or in the capital city!), it's a dialect.

So I hate to break it to you... but you, my friend, speak a ภาษาถิ่น! From your comments, it sounds like it's probably ถิ่นกรุงเทพฯ.

Here's the reasoning: a standardized form of Thai is taught in schools around the country. What they try to instill in you in the schools is ภาษาไทยมาตรฐาน or ภาษาไทยกลาง. But what you speak with your friends and family is not exactly what they taught you in school. If you turn ร into ล or say ปา when you mean ปลา, then you're speaking your local dialect. Everyone speaks a dialect, because everyone speaks.

Someone from upcountry might have just as much trouble understanding a conversation between you and your friends as you would between them and theirs.

[baennaenae]

I am talking about the Thai National Language not the dialects because I don't speak dialects

I assume you are using the word dialect to mean ????????. The linguist's definition of "dialect" is simply a certain variety of a language. Even if a dialect is spoken by the majority of people (or in the capital city!), it's a dialect.

So I hate to break it to you... but you, my friend, speak a ????????! From your comments, it sounds like it's probably ????????????.

Here's the reasoning: a standardized form of Thai is taught in schools around the country. What they try to instill in you in the schools is ?????????????? or ???????????. But what you speak with your friends and family is not exactly what they taught you in school. If you turn ? into ? or say ?? when you mean ???, then you're speaking your local dialect. Everyone speaks a dialect, because everyone speaks.

Someone from upcountry might have just as much trouble understanding a conversation between you and your friends as you would between them and theirs.

Whoops... I was wrong there...I do speak ???????? but ????? " ? " and ????? " ? " have nothing to do with ???????? or ???????? (Thai national language) because they exist in my dialect and most Bangkok people don't use them in spoken language in general which is the same as all over the country. My dialect is written as the same as the national language but how we say it makes it different. For example, ???????? ???????????? ??-???-???? , ??????? ( tasty chili paste ) ??????? pronounced Naam-prig.

Unlike, Chiang Mai and Isaan dialects because they use different words.

?????????? ???? ( for example ) Yog-tua-yaang chen ...

?????? is ???????? and my ???????? but ???????, ??????? are dialects Though ??????? pronounced ' Puad ngeeb ' is a slang

Let me know if I confused you or made mistakes

[baennaenae]

Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo why don't my Thai words show on the thread? They showed up on my Mac OS X when I was typing it

[baennaenae]

Whoops... I was wrong there...I do speak ???????? but ????? " ? " and ????? " ? " have nothing to do with ???????? or ???????? (Thai national language) because they exist in my dialect and most Bangkok people don't use them in spoken language in general which is the same as all over the country. My dialect is written as the same as the national language but how we say is different. For example, ???????? ??????????????? ??-???-????, ??????? ( tasty chili paste )in both my dialect and national language pronounced Naam-prig.

Unlike, Chiang Mai and Isaan dialects because they use different words.

?????????? ???? ( for example ) Yog-tua-yaang chen ...

?????? is a ???????? and my ???????? for Headache but ??????? pronounced Jeb-hua, ??????? pronounced Puad-ngaoo, are dialects Though ??????? pronounced ' Puad ngeeb ' is a slang

Let me know if I confused you or made mistakes.

?????? ???????????? , ???? pronounced ' Wonnee phokhaeneegorn, na ka (Enough for today, Na ka )

[baennaenae]

Whoops... I was wrong there...I do speak ภาษาถิ่น but อักษร " ร " and อักษร " ล " don't always refer the dialect they exist in my dialect and most Bangkok people don't use them in spoken language in general either which is the same as all over the country. My dialect is written as the same as the national language but how we say is different. For example, ภาษากลาง ??????????????? พา-ส่า-กลาง, นำ้พริก ( tasty chili paste )in both my dialect and national language pronounced Naam-prig.

Unlike, Chiang Mai and Isaan dialects because they use different words.

ยกตัวอย่าง เช่น ( for example ) Yog-tua-yaang chen ...

ปวดหัว is a ภาษากลาง and my ภาษาถิ่น for Headache but เจ็บหัว pronounced Jeb-hua, ปวดง่าว pronounced Puad-ngaoo, are dialects Though ปวดหงีบ pronounced ' Puad ngeeb ' is a slang

Let me know if I confused you or made mistakes.

วันนี้ พอแค่นี้ก่อน, นะคะ pronounced ' Wonnee phokhaeneegorn, na ka (Enough for today, Na ka )

[baennaenae]

?????? ??? ? ?? ???? อยากจะร้องไห้ ...

[baennaenae]

????????? ???? ? ไม่เขา้ใจ จริง ๆ

[Briggsy]

As I understand it, you are Thai. Why are you so confused about your own language. I assume your spelling is very good.

Are you teaching farangs to teach Thai and thus looking for a way to concisely explain the r and l pronunciation deviations?

I am not sure why you are asking what you already know, that's all.

[baennaenae]

Whoops... I was wrong there...I do speak ???????? but ????? " ? " and ????? " ? " don't always refer the dialect they exist in my dialect and most Bangkok people don't use them in spoken language in general either which is the same as all over the country. My dialect is written as the same as the national language but how we say is different. For example, ???????? ??????????????? ??-???-????, ??????? ( tasty chili paste )in both my dialect and national language pronounced Naam-prig.

Unlike, Chiang Mai and Isaan dialects because they use different words.

?????????? ???? ( for example ) Yog-tua-yaang chen ...

?????? is a ???????? and my ???????? for Headache but ??????? pronounced Jeb-hua, ??????? pronounced Puad-ngaoo, are dialects Though ??????? pronounced ' Puad ngeeb ' is a slang

Let me know if I confused you or made mistakes.

?????? ????????????, ???? pronounced ' Wonnee phokhaeneegorn, na ka (Enough for today, Na ka )

ไชโย่...ใช้ได้แล้ว! pronounced ' Chai yoooooooo....Chai dai laew ' Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....it works !

[baennaenae]

But it is quite a pain in the butt when I have to repeat what I typed in the edit form, weird !

What happens is after I typed Thai letters, it appears ????????? ?????? ??????? then I have to edit and type the same words again

[Briggsy]

Fascinating, you are conducting a thread คนเดียว

[baennaenae]

As I understand it, you are Thai. Why are you so confused about your own language. I assume your spelling is very good.

Are you teaching farangs to teach Thai and thus looking for a way to concisely explain the r and l pronunciation deviations?

I am not sure why you are asking what you already know, that's all.

Not at all, but just wanted to see if you are taught properly. Just don't want you guys to learn the wrong words But if you are happy with how we use ' R ' and ' L ', it's fine by me

[Johpa]

Not at all, but just wanted to see if you are taught properly. Just don't want you guys to learn the wrong words But if you are happy with how we use ' R ' and ' L ', it's fine by me

There is no single "proper" pronuciation of many Thai words regarding /r/ and /l/ although at some point the words were codified in writing. Only the most retentive academic souls fron Bangkok, and there are many, would make an effort to correct another Thais pronuciation on the matter, mainly in order to attempt to boost their own social standing. At least the Sankrit based words have an older written history pointing to one pronunciation over another.

The two letters represent, from a phonetic perspective, a fairly close pronunciation. Many languages will incorporate one or the other sound to be used phonemically, that is used to create meaning. A few languages like English will use both for phomemic purposes allowing word pairs like row/low to differentiate meaning. You can look up just about any language on Wikipedia to get a list of permitted consonants for that language.

I don't know the history of the Tai languages well enough to know whether both phonemes existed prior to contact with the South Asian languages, but I do know that the Thai people I have known over the decades have no issues with many words being pronounced either way. And as others have noted, other Tai languages in Thailand such as Kham Muang spokeb up north have other changes, such as /r/ ----> /h/, leading to one of my favorite Thai-English pairs "hot-hawn" when the weather gets really hot.

[baennaenae]

Not at all, but just wanted to see if you are taught properly. Just don't want you guys to learn the wrong words But if you are happy with how we use ' R ' and ' L ', it's fine by me

There is no single "proper" pronuciation of many Thai words regarding /r/ and /l/ although at some point the words were codified in writing. Only the most retentive academic souls fron Bangkok, and there are many, would make an effort to correct another Thais pronuciation on the matter, mainly in order to attempt to boost their own social standing. At least the Sankrit based words have an older written history pointing to one pronunciation over another.

The two letters represent, from a phonetic perspective, a fairly close pronunciation. Many languages will incorporate one or the other sound to be used phonemically, that is used to create meaning. A few languages like English will use both for phomemic purposes allowing word pairs like row/low to differentiate meaning. You can look up just about any language on Wikipedia to get a list of permitted consonants for that language.

I don't know the history of the Tai languages well enough to know whether both phonemes existed prior to contact with the South Asian languages, but I do know that the Thai people I have known over the decades have no issues with many words being pronounced either way. And as others have noted, other Tai languages in Thailand such as Kham Muang spokeb up north have other changes, such as /r/ ----> /h/, leading to one of my favorite Thai-English pairs "hot-hawn" when the weather gets really hot.

That is absolutely correct !

My friends and family have no issues with it either with the spoken language but believe me... a lot of Thai say " Uh-oh...how do I spell this word, is it an ' r ' or and ' l ' ? when they write.

Most uneducated people don't know if the words are spelt with the ' r ' or ' l ' but the educated people would and the well educated ones should know better I am not trying to nitpicking anyone or looking down the unducated people on this thread but just wanted to point out why...knowing the ' r ' and the ' l ' is also important. ( That's all ! )

By the way, I don't know the history of the Thai language that well either but that is based on my studying over the years.

I believe the ' r ' will eventually disappear in the writing language just like a few others but you still see it on the chart.

[Richard W]

I don't know the history of the Tai languages well enough to know whether both phonemes existed prior to contact with the South Asian languages

They did. One needs a contrast between initial *r and *l to explain the Northern Tai dialects (= Northern Zhuang in Chinese terminology), and the contrast correlates well with the contrast in Siamese cognates. (I could dig a good dozen examples out of Li's Handbook.) The distinction is less clear in some clusters. The contrast is also needed for Central Tai dialects (spoken in Laos, Vietnam and China), but I'm less confident of the dating there.

I'm less confident of pushing the distinction back to Proto-Tai-Kadai, and of course if Tai-Kadai is Austronesian, it is relevant that Austronesian seems not to have had *r. Related languages have a confusing habit of developing in parallel. What's happening with Ostapirat's work on Proto-Tai-Kadai initials?