NO hols for foreign teachers?

[Deepinthailand]

10 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

I have the section of said law in my database. Once you put up or shut up, I'll make it clear to you. 10,000.Baht says it's the law and in the law. Cheers mate.

Man what is your problem the guy asks you for the refrence you keep talking about. Now you treat it as a bartering matter surley you can see by the post already on this thread no one exept yourself has this  standard government contract. So please let us see it. I expect you have it but schools up and down the country don't abide with it. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by Deepinthailand

[BruceMangosteen]

1 minute ago, Deepinthailand said:

Mam what is your problem the guy asks you for the refrence you keep talking about. Now you treat it as a battering matter surley you can see by the post already on this thread. Seems no one exept yourself has this  standard government contract. So please let us see it. I expect you have it but schools up and down the country don't abide with it. 

"Section 4 DOES apply to teachers and all government employees. So you are not entitled to any of the protections under the Labor Protection Act, including severance.  The same applies to all government employees, Thai and farang alike."

 

Never mind the wager. Look up Section 4 in the law related to said matters. As for the standard contract, you will live and learn as I opined...it's a question of them liking you, not your job performance or contract. End of story. No charge. O O and God Bless You. 

[Deepinthailand]

3 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

"Section 4 DOES apply to teachers and all government employees. So you are not entitled to any of the protections under the Labor Protection Act, including severance.  The same applies to all government employees, Thai and farang alike."

 

Never mind the wager. Look up Section 4 in the law related to said matters. As for the standard contract, you will live and learn as I opined...it's a question of them liking you, not your job performance or contract. End of story. No charge. O O and God Bless You. 

I won't bother looking up section 4 as it will be like every other thai law never used.

I personaly do not agree with you on your last paragraph. But if that's your take on it so be it.  But I beg to differ greatly. I have seen two other foreign teachers given notice in the school I work within it has always always been done as per the contract. Both were as you put it not really liked by the schools leader but that was mostly their own fault. But the point is there contract was honoured re termination of contract. So if you have been or seen diffrent  may  I suggest the school was at fault.

[BruceMangosteen]

2 hours ago, Deepinthailand said:

I won't bother looking up section 4 as it will be like every other thai law never used.

I personaly do not agree with you on your last paragraph. But if that's your take on it so be it.  But I beg to differ greatly. I have seen two other foreign teachers given notice in the school I work within it has always always been done as per the contract. Both were as you put it not really liked by the schools leader but that was mostly their own fault. But the point is there contract was honoured re termination of contract. So if you have been or seen diffrent  may  I suggest the school was at fault.

Hello...and again....It isn't my take on anything. A lot of schools/employers adhere to termination agreements. Same with teachers/employees. I never said different. The topic was enforcement and validity of said contracts. Have a nice weekend.

[Deepinthailand]

15 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

Hello...and again....It isn't my take on anything. A lot of schools/employers adhere to termination agreements. Same with teachers/employees. I never said different. The topic was enforcement and validity of said contracts. Have a nice weekend.

Blowing in the wind again you change your statements from post to post

[muzmurray]

4 hours ago, BruceMangosteen said:

"Section 4 DOES apply to teachers and all government employees. So you are not entitled to any of the protections under the Labor Protection Act, including severance.  The same applies to all government employees, Thai and farang alike."

 

Never mind the wager. Look up Section 4 in the law related to said matters. As for the standard contract, you will live and learn as I opined...it's a question of them liking you, not your job performance or contract. End of story. No charge. O O and God Bless You. 

 

OK, the Labour protection Act does not have a "section 4" that deals with severance. Severance is covered in chapter 11, and begins at section 118. Also, there is no mention in that chapter of Government workers being exempt from severance.

 

You can not have meant Chapter 4, that deals with young workers.

 

Section 4 - " Section 4. This Act shall not apply to: (1) central administration provincial administration, and local administration; and (2) state enterprises under the law governing state enterprise labour relations".

 

Does NOT mean that foreign teachers are exempt from the Act !!!!

 

Still waiting for the link to the "Standard Government contract" - is that in your database too?

 

As I said before - stop with the bar stool talk.

Edited October 1, 2016 by muzmurray

[thequietman]

38 minutes ago, muzmurray said:

 

OK, the Labour protection Act does not have a "section 4" that deals with severance. Severance is covered in chapter 11, and begins at section 118. Also, there is no mention in that chapter of Government workers being exempt from severance.

 

You can not have meant Chapter 4, that deals with young workers.

 

Section 4 - " Section 4. This Act shall not apply to: (1) central administration provincial administration, and local administration; and (2) state enterprises under the law governing state enterprise labour relations".

 

Does NOT mean that foreign teachers are exempt from the Act !!!!

 

Still waiting for the link to the "Standard Government contract" - is that in your database too?

 

As I said before - stop with the bar stool talk.

Listen to me..... I have no dog in this race. However....... I went to the labor office and inquired about severance from a government school I had been working at for 5 years. I was told no severance for foreigners and a seriously reduced severance for Thai teachers. It was explained to me that if severance is not mentioned in the contract (yearly), then there is no severance due. This is why we get 1 year renewable contracts, so they don't have to pay severance.

i didn't trust their answer so my wife called labor office in Bangkok and got the same answer. Government schools are different.

Please accept this as truth.

[Deepinthailand]

51 minutes ago, thequietman said:

Listen to me..... I have no dog in this race. However....... I went to the labor office and inquired about severance from a government school I had been working at for 5 years. I was told no severance for foreigners and a seriously reduced severance for Thai teachers. It was explained to me that if severance is not mentioned in the contract (yearly), then there is no severance due. This is why we get 1 year renewable contracts, so they don't have to pay severance.

i didn't trust their answer so my wife called labor office in Bangkok and got the same answer. Government schools are different.

Please accept this as truth.

If we accept this as the truth then why do schools such as mine honour the severance agreement in our contracts. Because as in everywhere else in thailand in every government department has a very diffrent interpretation of the laws. The main points on this thread was one person saying dogmatically  that goverment school contracts are all the same and that farang will never get severance pay. I can say truthfully that is not correct

Please belive me

Edited October 1, 2016 by Deepinthailand

[BruceMangosteen]

5 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

If we accept this as the truth then why do schools such as mine honour the severance agreement in our contracts.

 

We are talking the payment of severance, not the notice etc.. As to the other member who posted Section 4(I assume), it is clear the Government is exempt and you are working for the government and that is that. "Administration" is the schools. My o my. Post it isn't the section then concur with my attorney's statement? Or did you make a typo?

[Deepinthailand]

32 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

 

We are talking the payment of severance, not the notice etc.. As to the other member who posted Section 4(I assume), it is clear the Government is exempt and you are working for the government and that is that. "Administration" is the schools. My o my. Post it isn't the section then concur with my attorney's statement? Or did you make a typo?

How clear do I need to be on this .

The school I work for is Goverment run. The last two times farang teachers were cut they were given one months notice in writing, and one months pay in lieu of notice, as they wanted them off the school grounds. (They also do this to thai teachers as well).

[thequietman]

55 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

How clear do I need to be on this .

The school I work for is Goverment run. The last two times farang teachers were cut they were given one months notice in writing, and one months pay in lieu of notice, as they wanted them off the school grounds. (They also do this to thai teachers as well).

Yes, but that's severance as contained in the contract. As you indicated before, it is in your contract. If it isn't in the contract, then no severance. 

[Slip]

This point about labour law has come up here many times before and I am yet to see a definitive answer.  A teacher who I know who worked for many years at the same school was dismissed without the substantial severance he would have been entitled to.  He planned to take them to the labour court- they brought in their lawyer who argued he was not entitled, but they still settled rather than go to the court.  (private primary/ high school).

Edited October 1, 2016 by Slip

[Deepinthailand]

25 minutes ago, thequietman said:

Yes, but that's severance as contained in the contract. As you indicated before, it is in your contract. If it isn't in the contract, then no severance. 

Jesus h that's what the whole debate has been about contracts abs severance pay catch up!!!

[muzmurray]

Severance does not need to be included in the contract for it to be paid - it is the law.

 

Having problems getting it? Go to the Labour court, they are very pro-employee.

[muzmurray]

9 hours ago, BruceMangosteen said:

 

We are talking the payment of severance, not the notice etc.. As to the other member who posted Section 4(I assume), it is clear the Government is exempt and you are working for the government and that is that. "Administration" is the schools. My o my. Post it isn't the section then concur with my attorney's statement? Or did you make a typo?

 

Actually you are not working for the government, you are what is called a "local hire". If you were working for the government, you would have the benefits and uniforms that your Thai peers have.

 

Not sure how you get to "administration" equaling schools?

[BruceMangosteen]

3 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Not sure how you get to "administration" equaling schools?

 

I was told that by good attorneys. It wasn't my conclusion as I don't read Thai. 

[BruceMangosteen]

3 hours ago, muzmurray said:

Severance does not need to be included in the contract for it to be paid - it is the law.

.

 

It's not the law for Government schools/employers. That's my position and as of yet, not refuted, only confused by some on here...

[BruceMangosteen]

11 hours ago, Deepinthailand said:

Jesus h that's what the whole debate has been about contracts abs severance pay catch up!!!

 

No, the discussion as expanded. Contracts are what they are. We then moved on to enforcement of severance both in contracts and not. 

[BruceMangosteen]

12 hours ago, Deepinthailand said:

 as they wanted them off the school grounds. 

 

What did they do or fail to do to create such an adversarial position?

[Deepinthailand]

43 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

 

What did they do or fail to do to create such an adversarial position?

I have no idea and how so you know it was adversarial. Read my post again. They do that for everyone they cut.

Now had enough of this now you have no intention of listening to anyone except yourself. By the way Thai layers are never incorrect are they!!! Maybe they just saw you coming l. You enjoy your teaching I don't expect the kids in your care enjoy it much mind. But as from Friday evening I am no longer an active teacher so do enjoy yourself

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 10:50 AM, Fookhaht said:

Geez, for a minute, I thought we were back on the topic of the foreigner who fixes Thai road holes in Buriram.   

Seriously,  holidays have always been excluded from the sign-in list in three educational organizations/institutions I have worked at in Thailand.  Maybe some clerk is just lazy and doesn't bother to delete the days.  Among the hundred or so foreign teachers I know in Thailand, everyone gets the same Thai holidays off as does Thai staff.  

Two questions:

• Do you have to physically come in on the holiday to sign in and out?  If so, that's just crazy.  
• Let me get this right--the Thai teachers at your same institution DON'T have to sign in/out for the holiday?  

You got it 100%. The whole task takes a few seconds, but has to be completed before 8 am. 

 

Most Thais got 2 weeks' off.

 

What makes us foreigners sore is that we were all promised 3 weeks' vacations. But then our boss developed a strange idea about temporary staff. He probably feels superior as civil servant. OTOH, what's the big deal to an institution? They ain't gonna save a single Baht! 

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 11:40 AM, allane said:

I am a now retired teacher who taught at three high schools in Thailand. This may be a definitional problem as to what constitutes a "holiday".

Before and after the official vacation period, there are often a few days where foreign teachers are expected to report in the morning to punch in/sign the register, and possibly, report back in the late afternoon to punch out/sign out. This was a privledge accorded only to the foreign teachers. At the schools where I worked, the Thai teachers were expected to remain at school all day during such periods. Understandably, it was they who did the complaining.

Well, we had been promised 3 weeks' holidays. Now we are getting exactly 0 days off. A colleague has to ride about 70 km to do this and he is not happy either. 

 

Do you see any added value from this rule? Thai Labour law specifies a minimum number of holidays. And TBH, this is a first for me. Never ever have I not gotten permission to go on vacation!! 

 

A refreshed and happy teacher will start the new semester with more energy and enthusiasm. But now, I'm bearing a grudge and harbor resentment. There might be greener pastures elsewhere... Providing exactly 0 holidays is outrageous. (The 13 public holidays don't count AFAIK as Thai Labour law speciifies those separately).

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 0:05 PM, Fookhaht said:

It also might be helpful to know at what type of school the OP is working:  private school?  government high school?  vocational college?  university?  Among these types of institutions, standards vary significantly.

It's a tertiary government institution. And the foreigners have been promised "3 weeks' holidays" and this signing-in-nonsense is the typical last minute knee-jerk reaction. 

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 7:58 PM, nongsangcity said:

check your contract.....what happens if you dont clock in and out...would you get paid or not...you have to be firm with schools...you tell them what the score is...if not they could walk all over you....a good friend of mine was told his school was closed october and he booked a 2 week holiday to europe on the 16th of october they told him last week schoool is open on the 17th...he told them he wont be back until the 31st..so he has an extra 2 weeks off...the cannot do any thing as they told him school was closed all of october..

Blame me, as I blame myself. The contract is in Thai and as I've stated previously, I thought I could TRUST the statement that we would get "3 weeks" off.

 

 

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 8:03 PM, BruceMangosteen said:

 

Repeating myself...such things are not in the contracts of Government schools. Perhaps you refer to a private school? What they "told" him doesn't matter. All that mattes is if they like him/her. 

Bruce, you are definitely on to something here. Years ago, some select few foreign teachers got another inofficial holiday after the finals while others had to come in every morning and sign their names. The lucky guys could sign "later", after their return from an island etc.

 

But here, this rule applies to ALL FOREIGNERS.

 

TBH, it looks like some crass misunderstanding by someone who has no knowledge of HR. oops, what HR management? Do they have that? Not sure, TBH. (Often, one comes in only to hear of some "Parents' Day" or something).

[onlycw]

On 9/28/2016 at 8:27 PM, jadee said:

Very much like tifino's reply! Working over here can at times seem more like a 'working holiday', especially when all-day sports days, events or ceremonies leave you with a clear schedule. 
In answer to the OP, I guess it is 'fair and legal' if it's in the contract and you signed it. 

Hell no, it's neither. IF employers could do away with pesky little laws like those governming labour for full time employees in Thailand, don't you think others wouldn't  abolish holidays, too?!?

[onlycw]

On 9/29/2016 at 6:21 AM, muzmurray said:

 

How on earth do you claim to know what is in each and every contract issued by a Government school?

 

Each establishment uses their own contract - there is no standard Government school contract.

Once, I signed a contract written by officials in Bangkok. Or was it approved by them? It was years ago, so I forgot what it was. That was at a government high school in rural Isaan. A well written contract, it was, both in English and Thai. 

[onlycw]

On 9/29/2016 at 9:33 AM, muzmurray said:

 

Please provide the link to this "standard" contract - it must be on the OBEC site ? Or maybe the Ministry of Education's site ?

 

My contract at a Government school certainly did cover all the things you said it didn't.

 

Do you have a link to substantiate the claim that Government schools are exempt from paying severance ?

 

Your posts seem to be full of "bar stool" talk and no verifiable facts.

 

The one and only standard contract I signed as written (or approved) by the "Ministry of Finance". Who pays the piper, calls the tune?

[onlycw]

On 10/1/2016 at 10:08 PM, Slip said:

This point about labour law has come up here many times before and I am yet to see a definitive answer.  A teacher who I know who worked for many years at the same school was dismissed without the substantial severance he would have been entitled to.  He planned to take them to the labour court- they brought in their lawyer who argued he was not entitled, but they still settled rather than go to the court.  (private primary/ high school).

Disputes of teachers vs government schools aren't heard by the Labour courts. 

 

Administrative Courts charge 2% of the amount claimed, then they reimburse it upon success (proportionally). 

 

I have more questions than answers, of course. And when 
I took my contract there to ask some lawyers working for the court, they asked me: do you want to sue? Apparently, there is a case, but they avoided giving any legal advice or clarify the law regarding no holidays. 

 

I might return and bring a translator, as they were discussing the contract among themselves. 

 

 

[Fookhaht]

Your supervisor is playing power/status/mind games with those who are 1) foreigners, and 2) temporary contract employees.   Been there, done that, got the axed holidays/teacher privileges.  

In one institution where I worked, free staff shirts and concert tickets (at another time) were handed out to all teachers EXCEPT the above two categories.  

STAFF SHIRTS:   Of course, the permanent Thai teachers were mandated to wear the staff shirts on Mondays.   Right away, the first day of every week, it was very visible as to who were the low-lifes.  

CONCERT:  The permanent Thai teachers who received the free tickets sat at round tables on the main floor with dinner and free drinks flowing throughout the concert.   We low-lifes (attendance was mandatory at this school-sponsored concert), had to buy our 150B tickets, sit in the mezzanine/balcony and look down on the royalty feasting and drinking.  Most of us left a few minutes into the concert as a silent protest.  I suspect we were hardly noticed. 

For some reason, the turnover is horrendous in that particular department.  Rarely does a foreign or contract teacher stay more than one year.  

So, don't fret, and don't take it personally.  It's just childish behavior by the administration to increase their own self-importance and those of officers/permanent staff.

 

This type of behavior saturates the hierarchical culture that is Thai.   I have several Thai farmer and laborer friends.  They suffer under this type of status discrimination on a regular basis, and have done so from birth.  Of course, their Buddhist background tells them that they "deserve" the status of life into which they were born.   So most take it silently (publicly) but always complain to trusted friends as the "universal conscience" of humanity tells them it's wrong.  We westerners have it a little tougher,  trying to work within such a system.   Seldom can you fight it with success.  Hard to change ingrained cultural mores/values.  Good luck.  

Edited October 8, 2016 by Fookhaht