Want to buy condo but need visa solution

[sikishrory]

I Work On A Superyacht 6-8 Months A Year And When On Leave I Stay In Thailand. I Have Been Doing This Awhile Now On 30 day Visa Exempt Entries.
I Have A Issue With My Countries Tax Office. They Still Consider Me A Resident For Tax Purposes, Therefore Want Me To Pay Tax On My Offshore Income. They Dont Count Living On A Boat As A "Place Of Abode". 
Having An Address And An Immigration Status That Is Not "Tourist" Clears Things Up From A Tax Point Of View.
I Have Cash For A Condo But Am Unsure What To Do With Immigration Side Of Things.
I Am Early 30s So Retirement Is Out.

Elite visa - no. Expensive and also can't work on it and can't marry on it as far as I know. Quite limiting really.
Have Previously Worked In Thailand And Not Keen On Doing It Again... for awhile at least.
Business Would Be Cool. I Don't Think There Are Many Businesses That You Can Leave Unnatended For 8 Months Of The Year Though.
Marriage - Have A Longtime Girlfriend That Is Open To Marriage. So This Is An Option But I Would Rather Keep Some Of My Independance. This is sort of a last check to see if im missing anything before I proceed with this I suppose.
Investment Visa - I Cant Remember How Much. I Think 10million Baht? I Probably Dont Have Enough Cash.

I Wonder Is It Possible To Get A Visa For Starting Up A Company That Stays Relatively Dormant? 
I Should Mention This Isnt Only About Tax. I Have Previously Lived In Thailand For Around 4 Years And Do Want To Set Myself Up In There For Now And The Future, Regardless Of Tax Status.
PS Excuse the capitals, computer was having an issue.

Edited October 1, 2016 by sikishrory
Add text

[Ronuk]

Not sure what your actually asking but you don't need any particular type of visa in order to buy a Condo. The main point is that you need to prove that the funds you are using for the purchase were derived outside of Thailand.

[geriatrickid]

Why do you have to buy a condo? Can you not rent? People do live in apartments.  I would describe the purchase of a condo by a single man who spends most of the year on a boat a poor investment. 

[SoFarAndNear]

What is your actual question? Visa options in Thailand to avoid paying taxes in your home country? If you are from UK or US then you will always be taxed there expect if you pay income tax in another country of residency. And Thailand is absolutely not an option in this case. You cant get a work permit just for living in Thailand and working abroad. Not to mention that Thailand is not tax heaven even if you could somehow manage to pay income tax in Thailand with working offshore.

[hagler]

Used to work the Med and Carib seasons for years and declared myself non resident for tax purposes.

 

4 of us leased an apartment in HK and that was sufficient to qualify for non resident for tax purposes. 

 

Remember countries now have reciprocol tax agreements with Aussie so pick your country for leasing wisely

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, sikishrory said:

Elite visa - no. Expensive and also can't work on it and can't marry on it as far as I know. Quite limiting really.

 

Expensive : individual judgment. Cannot work on it : no problem working offshore on an elite visa. Cannot marry on it : where did you get that idea?

 

On the other hand, it would be good to get advice on whether it would solve your tax problem.

 

Note: you can live in a condo in Thailand without owning it, and a lease agreement ought to be equally acceptable as proof of ownership for establishing non resident status.

[JomtienEats]

Which country are trying to escape from? Some are easier than others. Generally what I think you're looking for is proof of a tax residency. It's quite unfair for a country to claim you as a tax resident simply on the basis that you do not have another tax residency, but some countries will try that on.

[sikishrory]

3 hours ago, hagler said:

Used to work the Med and Carib seasons for years and declared myself non resident for tax purposes.

 

4 of us leased an apartment in HK and that was sufficient to qualify for non resident for tax purposes. 

 

Remember countries now have reciprocol tax agreements with Aussie so pick your country for leasing wisely

I think most countries have reciprocal tax treatys now. I know Thailand and Australia have an agreement. If I am ruled by ATO as being a non resident for tax purposes though based on having a room/life in thailand then I don't think any tax treatys affect me do they? Unless there is something my accountant is not telling me.

Anyway yeh maybe I can lease a very cheap place. I am considering that as well. It would just be nice to have a status other than tourist. I guess my only option is marriage.

[JackThompson]

14 hours ago, sikishrory said:

I think most countries have reciprocal tax treatys now. I know Thailand and Australia have an agreement. If I am ruled by ATO as being a non resident for tax purposes though based on having a room/life in thailand then I don't think any tax treatys affect me do they? Unless there is something my accountant is not telling me.

Anyway yeh maybe I can lease a very cheap place. I am considering that as well. It would just be nice to have a status other than tourist. I guess my only option is marriage.

 

Thailand does not tax you on income brought into the country if that income was earned a year+ prior.

 

If you only spend 4-mo / yr here, you would have no problems at all staying on Tourist Visas.  You could always rent an inexpensive condo or apartment full-time in your name, and let your GF stay there - using that as "proof of residence."

[BuckBee]

^
As above, renting better than buying, condo property not great investment & a potential ball ache when want get money back out from a sale etc. Condos have monthly fees plus sinking fund and the likes, cheap apartment keeps you flexible & if get bad neighbours or unpleasant changes in area it easy move on .

Owning a condo gives you no big advantage on visa status, generally it more of a long term burden than benefit .

For short periods of stay setv tourist are easy & even if married setv would be easier for just 4 months stay .

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by BuckBee

[sikishrory]

Thanks i will look into it

[williamgeorgeallen]

think renting a condo is the best option. no need to buy. dont get married, bad idea. leaving a condo or thai wife unattended for long periods of time is risky. just rent one and dont leave anything expensive in it. elite visa best of you can scratch the funds together but a multi entry tourist visa would do the job. can get up to 6 months at a time.

[SteveB2]

Crikey - this is easy stuff. No need to waste several thousand baht a month renting/purchasing some useless condo that you're hardly going to live it... or marrying some some dodgy Pattaya gold digger hoe  - now that idea is just plane gaa-gaa. Hoes (just like the condos) should only be rented and not purchased outright.

 

The solution is simple, get yourself an overseas mailing address. These can be had for just a few hundred baht per month.

 

Then declare 'permanent exit' from your previous country of tax residence.

 

For example, if previously tax resident in the UK, fill  out form P85 to let the tax man know you have gone, will not be coming back, and you want any tax back you have paid this year

https://www.gov.uk/tax-right-retire-abroad-return-to-uk

 

For mailbox rentals in Pattaya, try the local post offices and mail box etc 

 

or PM me and in exchange for a case of decent beer and a night out on WS with a smiley chaser, you can use my address for mailing. Cheers 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by SteveB2
Spelling again...

[bangkapi]

You don't need a visa solution as much as you need a tax solution.

[Pinot]

On 10/1/2016 at 9:17 AM, geriatrickid said:

Why do you have to buy a condo? Can you not rent? People do live in apartments.  I would describe the purchase of a condo by a single man who spends most of the year on a boat a poor investment. 

 

Visa and buying a condo don't have anything to do with each other. Rent a place here in Phuket for 10,000 baht a month if you want an address, but I don't see what good it does you.

 

Rent in two places that are a short plane ride away from each other. Cheap flights between KL and Phuket, alternating every 30 days, for instance. Throw in a 3rd place in Cambodia or Vietnam. Every place has it charms. I could easily live in three Asian countries at once. 

 

I always advise never to buy in LOS, always a bad financial decision. 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Pinot

[Pinot]

1 hour ago, SteveB2 said:

Crikey - this is easy stuff. No need to waste several thousand baht a month renting/purchasing some useless condo that you're hardly going to live it... or marrying some some dodgy Pattaya gold digger hoe  - now that idea is just plane gaa-gaa. Hoes (just like the condos) should only be rented and not purchased outright.

 

The solution is simple, get yourself an overseas mailing address. These can be had for just a few hundred baht per month.

 

Then declare 'permanent exit' from your previous country of tax residence.

 

For example, if previously tax resident in the UK, fill  out form P85 to let the tax man know you have gone, will not be coming back, and you want any tax back you have paid this year

https://www.gov.uk/tax-right-retire-abroad-return-to-uk

 

For mailbox rentals in Pattaya, try the local post offices and mail box etc 

 

or PM me and in exchange for a case of decent beer and a night out on WS with a smiley chaser, you can use my address for mailing. Cheers 

 

 

 

Does he say where he's from? Americans are stuck paying taxes on income no matter where they live. Giving up citizenship is difficult to avoid taxes can be done but it's not easy and rightfully so. 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Pinot said:

 

Does he say where he's from? Americans are stuck paying taxes on income no matter where they live. Giving up citizenship is difficult to avoid taxes can be done but it's not easy and rightfully so. 

 

I don't think the OP is a US-Citizen, and I think only the USA and China taxes ex-pat incomes.

 

You are correct about the difficulty of renouncing one's US-Citizenship, though it is not "rightfully so."  I am US-citizen.  Why should I have to pay taxes in a country where I do not live?  What service am I paying for?  I already pay for passport-renewals separately, in cash.  First, you have to get another passport first - not easy and/or expensive.  Then you must pay through the nose for "permission" to escape. 

 

Remember the old Berlin Wall?  I doubt many of those escapees kept paying taxes to the East German government, from their West-German incomes - though many got free university-educations from socialism.  The "American Citizen" wall is invisible, so you cannot even apply for asylum when you leave, but if you don't pay "your" (sic) taxes, goodbye passport, and to the gulag you go.  I pay every penny to avoid being kidnapped by them - aka "extortion."

 

US-Citizenship is useless to those for whom it is near the bottom of the list of countries where we would ever want to live.  If only we could legally swap passports with a gullible Thai, who doesn't know better ... but that would be cruel.   I couldn't do it; the guilt would make me ill, and then the karma...

[sandgroper2]

On 01/10/2016 at 9:17 AM, geriatrickid said:

Why do you have to buy a condo? Can you not rent? People do live in apartments.  I would describe the purchase of a condo by a single man who spends most of the year on a boat a poor investment. 

Rent 6 to 8 months a year.Same as money flushed down the loo. Only those who cant afford to buy are against it. I bought, sold for about 20% more than i paid, have lived the equivalent of rent free for 12 years. Experience speaks truth.

[sandgroper2]

30 minutes ago, sandgroper2 said:

Rent 6 to 8 months a year.Same as money flushed down the loo. Only those who cant afford to buy are against it. I bought, sold for about 20% more than i paid, have lived the equivalent of rent free for 12 years. Experience speaks truth.

P.S. For the Ozzies,loo means dunny. For Americans, loo means bathroom. (strange , but true)

Edited October 3, 2016 by sandgroper2
added more

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 1/10/2559 at 11:16 PM, sikishrory said:

I think most countries have reciprocal tax treatys now. I know Thailand and Australia have an agreement. If I am ruled by ATO as being a non resident for tax purposes though based on having a room/life in thailand then I don't think any tax treatys affect me do they? Unless there is something my accountant is not telling me.

Anyway yeh maybe I can lease a very cheap place. I am considering that as well. It would just be nice to have a status other than tourist. I guess my only option is marriage.

Forget about Tax Treaties as they do not apply to you! Fire Your Accountant, as he is not telling you what you need to know! You do not need to own a property, or rent one, in a different country to be considered a non-resident of your country if you are not from the USA. In other words, owning a property in a different country does not prove you are a resident of that country. I have Canadian Friends who own property in Florida and vacation there every winter, but for tax purposes they are considered living in Canada. 

 

To be a non-resident of your country  you basically have to prove you don't live their or plan to return in the future, and thus have to cut your family and financial ties to that country. Remember that your home is where your heart is. So if you had a wife living in your home country, while you worked overseas, they would consider your home to be where your wife is.

 

If you keep paying your club memberships, have a car their, and a property to move back into, they may consider this as your plan to return, and thus not a non-resident. So basically you don't have to prove you live somewhere else (although this may help). You just have to prove you don't live in you Home Country anymore and thus keep your visits there down to a minimum. Maybe not at all your first year or so.  

 

In your present circumstances, I wouldn't buy a condo or even rent one. What I did when I was single and working overseas and coming to Thailand 4 to 6 months a years, was rent a hotel room on a monthly basis. All hotels I talked to in Pattaya where willing to make a deal but that should get you at least a 25% discount or the regular room price. I was paying about 1,000 Baht a night for a nice room that rents out at 1,300 Baht a Night. So for 26 nights it cost me 26,000 Baht all inclusive including a free breakfast in a nice place, plus of course I only paid that when I stayed there. 

 

You first steps to moving here should be to open a Thai Bank Account and get a Thai Driver's License. I did this after I already had an Extension to stay based on Retirement so I can't comment on how to do this without that. But others here have claimed they were able to do that just on their Visa Exempt, so I guess there is a way it can be done.    

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, sandgroper2 said:

Rent 6 to 8 months a year.Same as money flushed down the loo. Only those who cant afford to buy are against it. I bought, sold for about 20% more than i paid, have lived the equivalent of rent free for 12 years. Experience speaks truth.

I believe the OP said he would be out of Thailand 6 to 8 months a year, and not living here like you said. So in one year he may only live here 4 months. 

 

So I agree with you that renting a Condo for 12 months, and living in it for only 4 is a bad idea. But I am not so sure that buying a Condo here under those circumstances is a good idea either. Especially being only 32 years old and no way yet of securing a Long Term Extension to stay here. Or even knowing where he will be working in a few years from now and thus if he can come here as often as he does. 

 

Buying a Condo for investment purposes I think is a bad idea also, although better then renting 12 months for a 4 month stay. For the cost of a condo, a safe investment in a bank stock that pays a decent dividend will out-preform what he would pay in rent and his property value increase, with far less risk.  Especially if he is forced to rent it out because he can't live here. But???

[sikishrory]

Just now, sandgroper2 said:

P.S. For the Ozzies,loo means dunny. For Americans, loo means bathroom. (strange , but true)

Yeh really buying is not much of an issue for me. Picking up a condo for a million baht is a far cry from buying a house in melbourne where you would be looking at 50 million baht.  If looking at it purely from an investment angle then maybe not ideal but it would be nice to have something as after 10 years rent is going to be just as bad of an investment 

[Pinot]

10 Reasons I'll never buy a condo

[keeniau96]

As I understand the OP you are looking for a residence that will allow you legitimate claim to being out-of-country i.e. not in USA/UK/whatever for a large part of the tax year. Seems that renting a place would be adequate. Thus renting an apartment or even just a room should be enough. To reinforce that buy a car (cheap used will do) or motorbike. This would be as little as 3k baht per month. Add regular monthly expenses (with receipt proof for the tax dudes) for electric, phone, internet and it sure would look like bona fide residence, which is all you need for the taxmen.

[sandgroper2]

1 hour ago, Pinot said:

10 Reasons I'll never buy a condo

Just read them, first, mostly you say, if , maby , usually etc. Secondly, do your sums on a 700000K condo in Jomtien. Anybody can play with figures and make them come out any way they chose.

[BuckBee]

condo buy or rent is waste of money for most .

rent apartments, they do monthly if needed and way cheaper than goldbuggy 1,000 a night hotel .

Can rent a decent apartment in bkk if you take time walk around & hunt them down for 60,000 a whole year, contract is easy 6 months and extends as long as like with easy clauses .

I used my money buy in singapore & money I make renting that could pay for 6 apartments in bkk . Condo property here is p155 poor investment unless you really personally need the space & intend be located here close to indefinitely .

Condos can also suffer from massive maintenance issues when fes unpaid or funds vanish plus serious neighbour issues or other local development can change your expensive investment into a 5hit hole you can't give away .

[new2here]

Coming back to the central question of what does it take to meet the 'I live overseas' question goes. I'd refer back to your national tax authority and see what they say.

I'm quite sure you're not the first person to be in this kind of a scenario, so I'm sure that on some level, they (the tax authority) have set some rules or even guidelines as to what constitutes proof.


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[JayBird]

The problem:

You are working at a company that is withholding tax from you and submitting it to the appropriate tax authorities (either where you are registered, lived, or the country they are registered in).

 

You are asking to get that money back from the country that has effectively taxed you.

 

In order to request a refund from that country you have to prove you live in another country and the withholding tax is not applicable to you.

 

The status 'I don't live in XYZ' is a tough one to prove.  Most likely you will have to prove 'I live in ABC'.  In either case, you are going down a complicated tax hole.  Before you do that, is it possible to do a simpler thing:

 

Prevent your company from withholding taxes (inform them you will pay it yourself).  Then fill in tax forms as required/applicable.  (Some countries allow this).

 

Inform your company that you are now a resident in ABC (which has more favourable tax conditions). 

Owning a condo does not qualify for that (it does in some countries like UAE and Malaysia if memory serves), but not in Thailand.  And you do not spend enough time (6 months + 1 day) in Thailand to qualify as a tax resident.  I believe yacht workers are domiciled either in the country of the ships port or the country of the worker's nationality (I'm not a pro on maritime tax law here, so double check that).

 

But, if I understand the issue correctly, I think you are stuck paying the taxes you are paying because by law those are probably the taxes you are supposed to pay :)  (Cruise ship workers pay taxes even if floating in overseas waters, based on which nationality you are).

 

One option for you is to, um, not work  Or perhaps work less than 6 months.