Contracts, like warranties are useless in Thailand

[KittenKong]

31 minutes ago, lkn said:

AdrianBerry: How bad is the state of these units? Are we talking about obvious defects or only that the finish is not like what was displayed in the showroom?

 

He did mention some fairly major problems:

 

" My first inspection found a couple of small easy-to-fix electrical faults in my units but my last inspection found some major issues that would take the builder/developer some serious money to rectify and were indeed life-threatening – the building does not meet the Thai Electrical Code!.  As well, they were building some external stairs that day for the Juristic office out of some undersized / too-thin tube steel (it will not last too long that close to the sea).  "

[AdrianBerry]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

AdrianBerry: How bad is the state of these units? Are we talking about obvious defects or only that the finish is not like what was displayed in the showroom?

 

If it is the latter, I would probably go for a discount and then pay for fixing up the place myself.

 

Some of the issues are more cosmetic than anything, some are more serious and will affect the ability to resell the units - they have fixed up many of the defects and more obvious things.

 

I judge that the builder suffered from a lack of effective supervision - if 25 year old "project engineer" could not organise the rework effectively (work order, invoices, inspections, checklists etc.) who is doing the supervision?  How is he going to tell (especially older) tradespeople their work is not satisfactory?

 

I tried to get them to put in a Daikin air conditioner (per the contract) and not the cheap Samsung - do you think that I am going to have any luck negotiating a discount?  For the developer, it is all about you get what we give you.

 

I am loath to consider taking even one of the units because of the electrical and structural issues - anyone can put icing on a mouldy cake and make it look nice.

[Asiantravel]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 12:17 AM, funandsuninbangkok said:

It is illegal to buy landed property using a company in Thailand. Your friend is lucky he did not lose everything 

you are wrong and he was not lucky at all because my neighbour  explained to me the company in question was set up so long ago that it enjoyed certain privileges you can no longer get by having a company today. Don't you think the court system would have jumped on him if what you describe applied to him?

Anyway that's beside the point. The point is the justice system here is corrupt to the core..

[KittenKong]

39 minutes ago, Asiantravel said:

you are wrong and he was not lucky at all because my neighbour  explained to me the company in question was set up so long ago that it enjoyed certain privileges you can no longer get by having a company today. Don't you think the court system would have jumped on him if what you describe applied to him?

 

Every day I see hundreds if not thousands of people breaking dozens of different laws here. Lack of enforcement does not make a thing legal.

[Asiantravel]

6 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Every day I see hundreds if not thousands of people breaking dozens of different laws here. Lack of enforcement does not make a thing legal.

okay but this case is substantially different. the plaintiff had a watertight case because of his methodically kept evidence. The defendant's lawyers were looking for any chink  at all in his armour.  don't you think at some point in the case which dragged on for five years either they or even the judge  for that matter would have pounced on him and said something to the effect of " in any case your company shouldn't even be holding this property in the first place?"

[AdrianBerry]

I thought that it was time for another update on what is happening with my case...

 

After meeting with the OCPB in September,  they were committed to putting my file before the "Selection Committee" to see if it warranted being handled by their lawyers.  What that meant was a March time frame was given for the next sitting of the committee - no guarantee that it would have been selected or not, 6 months away, I decided to go it on my own and pay for the lawyer myself (Thai bureaucracy moves ...very... slow) as the legal fees are covered at part of the contract as claimable as well as the associated expenses I have made in relation to the travel to Bangkok and even potentially the lost opportunity costs (the money I would have received if the units had been rented out.

 

So I selected a local Pattaya lawyer that a friend had recommended who had recently won a case for him and speaks excellent English (previously I have gone through an "agent" that would relay all of the information to the Thai speaking lawyer - everything needed to be translated and I never got what I wanted explained).  I thought that his rate was reasonable (THB 50,000) for the initial court filing and handling - at least he was not asking for a straight % fee (I had been quoted 10% oor THB 300,000 by one lawyer) and was confident that I had a solid case.

 

My lawyer filed the case with in November with the Pattaya Provincial Civil Court.  As It had to do with a consumer complaint, I did not have to have to pay the 2% (bond?) fee to the Court.  I had our first meeting with the defendant's lawyer on Monday (they actually sent a "lawyer" this time and came from Bangkok as the company is based there) if they had not showed up or had send a clerk again like they had in the past, I would have "won" the initial submission and he would have asked for a judgement based on my submission and lack of appearance.

 

Not surprisingly, their side tried to get me to take one or both of the units "at a discount" though no numbers were thrown around - in reality even if I took one unit, they would still owe me money at this point.  I refused the offer on the basis that I am aware of significant safety issues in the property that would a:) expensive to fix and b:) they have already passed inspection.  Besides, they have exhibited unsavoury behaviour that I would not want to be associated with them as a tenant in the future.

 

The best that they would come up with was repayment of the principal amount.  I held firm to demanding the 7 1/2% interest and legal fees in addition to the principal but waived my claim to the opportunity costs.  The mediator who sat with us failed to get a resolution and he took his paperwork to the Judge to get him to sign off on it and arrange the next appearance date in 15 days (their lawyer was pissed off she had to cut her Chinese New Year trip short - awwww) No way I will pass up on the interest - they have been using my money for 5 years and still have the units to sell off... I will not reward them for bad behaviour.

 

The director of the company (through the lawyer) was saying he wished he could have just called me to resolve the issue instead of getting dragged to Court and to the OCPB - every email and every letter has my phone number right there! - He also had opportunity to answer my Facebook message that I sent him as well!

 

I was shocked that the Judge (who was signing off on the paperwork) came into the mediation room and tried to explain the "lay of the land" - he was getting nowhere in getting me to relent my position so he sent the lawyers out of the room to have a one-on-one with me.  He said that he has seen dozens of these cases here in Pattaya and that I should consider taking their offer as is was "as good as I was going to get" - or that it will end up going on and on for years (likely 2 or 3 years depending on appeal).  BRING IT ON!  There is no way I will "reward" a developer in giving up THB 700,000 in interest just because they think they are clever and can refuse to answer my letters and claims!

 

The director still has still not called me days later, I gave them 7 days to accept my reduced offer and we meet again on the 20th...  I am hoping for a resolution as I have a very good Contract but I think that they are just too foolish to give up.

[beautifulthailand99]

On 2/7/2018 at 5:12 AM, AdrianBerry said:

I thought that it was time for another update on what is happening with my case...

 

After meeting with the OCPB in September,  they were committed to putting my file before the "Selection Committee" to see if it warranted being handled by their lawyers.  What that meant was a March time frame was given for the next sitting of the committee - no guarantee that it would have been selected or not, 6 months away, I decided to go it on my own and pay for the lawyer myself (Thai bureaucracy moves ...very... slow) as the legal fees are covered at part of the contract as claimable as well as the associated expenses I have made in relation to the travel to Bangkok and even potentially the lost opportunity costs (the money I would have received if the units had been rented out.

 

So I selected a local Pattaya lawyer that a friend had recommended who had recently won a case for him and speaks excellent English (previously I have gone through an "agent" that would relay all of the information to the Thai speaking lawyer - everything needed to be translated and I never got what I wanted explained).  I thought that his rate was reasonable (THB 50,000) for the initial court filing and handling - at least he was not asking for a straight % fee (I had been quoted 10% oor THB 300,000 by one lawyer) and was confident that I had a solid case.

 

My lawyer filed the case with in November with the Pattaya Provincial Civil Court.  As It had to do with a consumer complaint, I did not have to have to pay the 2% (bond?) fee to the Court.  I had our first meeting with the defendant's lawyer on Monday (they actually sent a "lawyer" this time and came from Bangkok as the company is based there) if they had not showed up or had send a clerk again like they had in the past, I would have "won" the initial submission and he would have asked for a judgement based on my submission and lack of appearance.

 

Not surprisingly, their side tried to get me to take one or both of the units "at a discount" though no numbers were thrown around - in reality even if I took one unit, they would still owe me money at this point.  I refused the offer on the basis that I am aware of significant safety issues in the property that would a:) expensive to fix and b:) they have already passed inspection.  Besides, they have exhibited unsavoury behaviour that I would not want to be associated with them as a tenant in the future.

 

The best that they would come up with was repayment of the principal amount.  I held firm to demanding the 7 1/2% interest and legal fees in addition to the principal but waived my claim to the opportunity costs.  The mediator who sat with us failed to get a resolution and he took his paperwork to the Judge to get him to sign off on it and arrange the next appearance date in 15 days (their lawyer was pissed off she had to cut her Chinese New Year trip short - awwww) No way I will pass up on the interest - they have been using my money for 5 years and still have the units to sell off... I will not reward them for bad behaviour.

 

The director of the company (through the lawyer) was saying he wished he could have just called me to resolve the issue instead of getting dragged to Court and to the OCPB - every email and every letter has my phone number right there! - He also had opportunity to answer my Facebook message that I sent him as well!

 

I was shocked that the Judge (who was signing off on the paperwork) came into the mediation room and tried to explain the "lay of the land" - he was getting nowhere in getting me to relent my position so he sent the lawyers out of the room to have a one-on-one with me.  He said that he has seen dozens of these cases here in Pattaya and that I should consider taking their offer as is was "as good as I was going to get" - or that it will end up going on and on for years (likely 2 or 3 years depending on appeal).  BRING IT ON!  There is no way I will "reward" a developer in giving up THB 700,000 in interest just because they think they are clever and can refuse to answer my letters and claims!

 

The director still has still not called me days later, I gave them 7 days to accept my reduced offer and we meet again on the 20th...  I am hoping for a resolution as I have a very good Contract but I think that they are just too foolish to give up.

Crikey I'm very sorry for your predicament and all the trouble you are going through. Sounds like you have reached the end of the road and should take any money on the table , run and put it down to a painful lesson. Sounds like if you plough on through the system you will wind yourself even more and not get a better outcome. This is Thailand I'm afraid and you are a foreigner clashing with a corrupt system ,  justice and the rule of law are in very short supply. 

[Tagaa]

On 10/5/2016 at 11:00 AM, AdrianBerry said:

why don't they just ask for our wallets once we land here and tell us to get back on the plane?

 

 

 Now your finally getting it.

[AdrianBerry]

On 15/02/2018 at 5:56 PM, beautifulthailand99 said:

Crikey I'm very sorry for your predicament and all the trouble you are going through. Sounds like you have reached the end of the road and should take any money on the table , run and put it down to a painful lesson. Sounds like if you plough on through the system you will wind yourself even more and not get a better outcome. This is Thailand I'm afraid and you are a foreigner clashing with a corrupt system ,  justice and the rule of law are in very short supply. 

Sorry, I reject that.  Quite frankly that is what they are expecting me to do... everyone else has done exactly that.

 

I had my second mediation attempt this morning at the courthouse.  The defendant's lawyer did show up and very pissed off at me as the appointment cut her Chinese New Year trip in half.  Despite asking for my phone number so her boss could contact me and negotiate directly, that did not happen... no surprise there.

 

They told me that it was "not company policy" to refund monies paid for the condo, instead they expected me to take at least one of the properties (I have a studio and a 1-bedroom) following the terms of the contract they would have to pay me out significant baht depending on which room I took.  They chose to ignore all of the interest and late fees that would be owed to me to get as sweet a deal as they could for themselves (we are talking about a million Baht here).  They even wanted to deduct depreciation on the property - even if they are selling the same rooms for a million baht more than what I had bought them for!

 

I told her that I had signed a Contract - a Contract that I felt was a promise between two parties - me and the Director of the company that signed it... I did not agree to anything else - especially not their "policy"!

 

The Contract was my starting point and I asked for everything that was allowed for in the Contract for recompense.  Last time, I took the 'lost opportunity costs' off the table (1.4 million Baht) and asked for the principal, interest (at 7.5%) and legal costs.  I have compromised further this week and reduced it to 5% interest and lawyer fees - after several hours of negotiation with the mediator and the Judge (the same one that tried to strong-arm me last time) we started to get some movement (pending a Board Meeting to discuss a change of "policy") when I was out of the room I told my lawyer half of the interest and the legal cost would be OK... Well what do you know, they took half of the 5% instead of 7 1/2% owing under the Contract - Great! now you tell me after I signed the paper!

 

So, from my court claim of THB 4.1M, I have come down to THB 2.95M and further to THB 2.6M while they have come up from THB 2.2M to just THB 2.45.  I am always expected to be the one to compromise in the mediation it seems as I am the only decision maker in the room... it is my choice to accept or make issue with a few hundred thousand baht.  In the end, it may make it worthwhile for me to fight it - I can pay for a lot of legal costs for THB 500,000!

 

It was interesting to she the defendant's lawyer loose her cool a bit.  I know that I have all of my ducks in a row here and ready for a trial - I doubt that she has even read the Contract!  I cannot even imagine what advice she has been giving her client!  I do think that the Judge gave her a serious talking too (45 minutes) about "Contracts vs Policy" because she was much more pliable regarding the interest... I hope they listen.

 

 

[rayongchelsea]

On 07/02/2018 at 12:12 PM, AdrianBerry said:

I thought that it was time for another update on what is happening with my case...

 

After meeting with the OCPB in September,  they were committed to putting my file before the "Selection Committee" to see if it warranted being handled by their lawyers.  What that meant was a March time frame was given for the next sitting of the committee - no guarantee that it would have been selected or not, 6 months away, I decided to go it on my own and pay for the lawyer myself (Thai bureaucracy moves ...very... slow) as the legal fees are covered at part of the contract as claimable as well as the associated expenses I have made in relation to the travel to Bangkok and even potentially the lost opportunity costs (the money I would have received if the units had been rented out.

 

So I selected a local Pattaya lawyer that a friend had recommended who had recently won a case for him and speaks excellent English (previously I have gone through an "agent" that would relay all of the information to the Thai speaking lawyer - everything needed to be translated and I never got what I wanted explained).  I thought that his rate was reasonable (THB 50,000) for the initial court filing and handling - at least he was not asking for a straight % fee (I had been quoted 10% oor THB 300,000 by one lawyer) and was confident that I had a solid case.

 

My lawyer filed the case with in November with the Pattaya Provincial Civil Court.  As It had to do with a consumer complaint, I did not have to have to pay the 2% (bond?) fee to the Court.  I had our first meeting with the defendant's lawyer on Monday (they actually sent a "lawyer" this time and came from Bangkok as the company is based there) if they had not showed up or had send a clerk again like they had in the past, I would have "won" the initial submission and he would have asked for a judgement based on my submission and lack of appearance.

 

Not surprisingly, their side tried to get me to take one or both of the units "at a discount" though no numbers were thrown around - in reality even if I took one unit, they would still owe me money at this point.  I refused the offer on the basis that I am aware of significant safety issues in the property that would a:) expensive to fix and b:) they have already passed inspection.  Besides, they have exhibited unsavoury behaviour that I would not want to be associated with them as a tenant in the future.

 

The best that they would come up with was repayment of the principal amount.  I held firm to demanding the 7 1/2% interest and legal fees in addition to the principal but waived my claim to the opportunity costs.  The mediator who sat with us failed to get a resolution and he took his paperwork to the Judge to get him to sign off on it and arrange the next appearance date in 15 days (their lawyer was pissed off she had to cut her Chinese New Year trip short - awwww) No way I will pass up on the interest - they have been using my money for 5 years and still have the units to sell off... I will not reward them for bad behaviour.

 

The director of the company (through the lawyer) was saying he wished he could have just called me to resolve the issue instead of getting dragged to Court and to the OCPB - every email and every letter has my phone number right there! - He also had opportunity to answer my Facebook message that I sent him as well!

 

I was shocked that the Judge (who was signing off on the paperwork) came into the mediation room and tried to explain the "lay of the land" - he was getting nowhere in getting me to relent my position so he sent the lawyers out of the room to have a one-on-one with me.  He said that he has seen dozens of these cases here in Pattaya and that I should consider taking their offer as is was "as good as I was going to get" - or that it will end up going on and on for years (likely 2 or 3 years depending on appeal).  BRING IT ON!  There is no way I will "reward" a developer in giving up THB 700,000 in interest just because they think they are clever and can refuse to answer my letters and claims!

 

The director still has still not called me days later, I gave them 7 days to accept my reduced offer and we meet again on the 20th...  I am hoping for a resolution as I have a very good Contract but I think that they are just too foolish to give up.

In my opinion you should be focusing on the validity of the building. You’ll get no where by yourself or by focusing on your snags..

I very much doubt if they have complied with all the building “safety” requirements, e.g fire. Ask them if they complied with all necessary local and governmental requirements.

 

There is probably a standard clause in your contract that states all such compliance’s are in place.

 

You should be focusing on the tessabaan documentation and looking at the overall title deed of the property at the land department.

 

request a book of the rules and regulations for the condo..ask them to show the warranties for things like air con etc...look at the list of common property, have they all been transferred to the juristic office.

 

The developer doesn’t care, if you begin to realise that then you will realise and make sense of his actions.You have 2 units in a building where the committee and management company will be put in place by the developer...you simply have no idea what mess is to come..absolutely under no circumstances transfer..forget the 700k..

 

you never know what other cr*p is out there...and you clearly have not been educated in the Thai legal process..50k is nothing and how it works..

 

Good luck for your stance..

 

[AdrianBerry]

 

Well yesterday marked my last appearance at the courthouse as we finally came to some resolution.  The developer refused to give me my money back and refused to honour the Contract at all.  In the end, I had to accept the smaller of the two condos (a studio room) plus some of the cash that had been paid totalling 600K.  While not "in the hole", after 5 years I walk out of there with the room "in my hands" and 68K in cash as a 'profit'.

 

Here are my take-aways from it all:

 

1.  Contracts really are useless in this country - I was shocked to see the very thought of enforcing them rejected by a sitting Judge in favour of what I would call 'forced mediation'.  There was (almost) no way that I was going to be allowed to stop the mediation process in the way I was being pressured.

 

2.  Companies will put anything in a Contract to get the sale knowing full well that they will never honour the terms and conditions within.  They only care about the internal policies with the company and hide as such behind those policies.

 

3.  The Office of Consumer Protection (OCPB) was useless and powerless in resolving my case - they did not want to pursue it at all and I would never have gotten are far as I did without badgering them to act.  I wasted a year on them for a nil result.  I have still not heard from them about our "March 2018 appointment" nor do I ever expect to...  Without media attention, there is no desire to act on behalf of the little guys - saying that, they were not shy about bringing out the cameras when I had my session in front of the 15-odd member Board.  Pictures or it never happened as thy say.  The only way I could have brought any media attention to my plight was to risk the very strict defamation and internet laws in Thailand.  Catch 22. 

 

4.  It is not that I felt that the Thai justice system is stacked against us farang, rather the system is self-perpetuating.  I get it that the courts are clogged up with cases - it takes years to get though the system of courts and appeals - the job of mediation is to (aggressively) get cases off of the dockets.  The very fact that the courts are tied up is the failure of an effective mediation / court process.  Developers such as this act with such complete impunity to flout the law - it is simply not worth it to potentially drag it out for years - I became very wary about the side deals and how documents were being interpreted and used against me as leverage to accept a mediated offer.  I was sickened.

 

What I should have done:

 

1.  Right from the start was to attend the free mediation services that are run out of the courthouse - dragged the staff from the condo at the beginning to get them to mediate the dispute.  Engaged a lawyer only after mediation had failed.  Essentially all my lawyer did was to attend the same mediation sessions after he made the court filing and the witnessed the settlement.  I would have saved myself 3 years of dispute - or should I say - them ignoring me.

 

2.  Never have considered buying 'off the plan'.  The risks are too high - a Contract is NO protection and there is no way to know who you are really dealing with.

 

So I have a nice studio condo available located in a great location near Prat Tamnack and Thappraya roads if anyone is interested in picking up a new studio condo - don't worry, I won't be quick to ask you to sign a Contract!

 

I hope that this thread helps someone in the future... in service, Adrian

[Phil90]

Doesn't getting a renewal and transfer clause in a land lease require, essentially, a contract?  I read that this is the case because Thai lease law doesn't allow for it.  But then you run into more problems because when the owner of the land sells it, the lease transfers but the contracts about the renewal and transfer rights don't.  Isn't that true?

But if contract law is "worthless" does it apply to those types of contracts too in that your lease renewal and ability to transfer it are questionable even if the owner does not sell the land?

Edited March 8, 2018 by Phil90

[AdrianBerry]

3 hours ago, Phil90 said:

Doesn't getting a renewal and transfer clause in a land lease require, essentially, a contract?  I read that this is the case because Thai lease law doesn't allow for it.  But then you run into more problems because when the owner of the land sells it, the lease transfers but the contracts about the renewal and transfer rights don't.  Isn't that true?

But if contract law is "worthless" does it apply to those types of contracts too in that your lease renewal and ability to transfer it are questionable even if the owner does not sell the land?

I am really not sure in this regard.

 

What I expressed is just my opinion and have relayed my experience.

 

The laws are there... have you got enough time, money and energy to challenge them.  If you are talking big money, it is worth it.  A lawyer I was speaking to once told me that unless you are talking about a case more than one million (dollars) it was not worth fighting over.  Another lawyer also said better to take them (have them in your hand) than to fight the case.  Both were right.

[beautifulthailand99]

If there is a prize for dogged tenacity in the face of huge odds then I'm sure you would walk it. Heartwarming that at last you have an outcome that gives you some satisfaction. Just a crying shame you didn't do a course in basic Thai culture in advance. Buying off plan is a huge and well known risk. Just back from Thailand and we considered a condo in Pattaya and decided not to go down that route when we can rent cheaply if we want to spend any time in country (we don't , just short family visits from now on). Your Theppraya Road condo isn't the Supalai  one by any chance ?

Edited March 11, 2018 by beautifulthailand99

[AdrianBerry]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

If there is a prize for dogged tenacity in the face of huge odds then I'm sure you would walk it. Heartwarming that at last you have an outcome that gives you some satisfaction. Just a crying shame you didn't do a course in basic Thai culture in advance. Buying off plan is a huge and well known risk. Just back from Thailand and we considered a condo in Pattaya and decided not to go down that route when we can rent cheaply if we want to spend any time in country (we don't , just short family visits from now on). Your Theppraya Road condo isn't the Supalai  one by any chance ?

Mostly I just feel stupid - satisfied is not a word that I would use.  I hate that I let my own arrogance get in the way of a speedy result.

 

No it is not the Supalai project.  I would love to name and shame the developers but the strict internet and defamation laws that exist here prevent me from doing anything of the sort.

 

I went into the sales office the other day and talked to some of the staff about the paperwork and Contract and summed up the value of it when I questioned it, the developer just (figuratively) just wiped their <deleted> with it and handed it back to me.  Now I sit here with crap all over my hands.