Sole custody - consentual

[Nabili]

Hi all,

 

my ex girlfriend and I expect a daughter in December. She agrees for me to take care of her and to live with me in Europe. For that I need to gain sole custody.

Now I wonder how this works:

- can we jointly register sole custody at the amphora?

- do we have to go to court and get a judge ruling?

 

As said, she agrees, so i want this to be as smooth as possible.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[MikeyIdea]

You will have to go to court. The process is to legitimize, then to give shared or sole custody, can be done in one court hearing 

 

It is easy if the mother really consents. Waiting time 2.5 to 3 months in Bangkok, perhaps a bit slower in some places but it's pretty quick everywhere in Thailand. Then one month until court order takes effect. Waiting time for a second hearing is approx 3 - 4 months

 

You don't need sole custody to do it actually, what you need is minimum shared custody and formal consent

 

Prepare the mother, discuss options and money and ensure her that you will let her see the child in the future if she wants. The court will not just agree with the mother and push on. They will ask if she wants access in the future etc.

 

The mother should be the one taking this to court, she wants the father legitimised and then her request

 

Not expensive if consent, should be no more than 50,000

 

Good Luck

Edited October 8, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[Nabili]

Hi,

 

thanks for your informations.

 

One thing: 

You say one month till court order is in effect. Will I get the written ruling before and can I leave Thailand before that with my daughter? Or do I have to stay?

 

Cheers

 

 

[MikeyIdea]

The other party always have 30 days to decide if they want to appeal the court order or not. You can get copies of the court order almost immediately but they will not contain the proper stamps. For that you will have to wait 30 days. I don't know if Immigration will accept copies without proper stamps as evidence and let you out. It is not likely

 

The mother will have shared or sole custody until the court order takes effect so you can ask her to go to the amphur and get a printed paper where she gives you permission to take the child out of Thailand. That will work fine and you can leave with the child before the court order becomes valid. Your lawyer can send the paperwork to you when it is ready

 

It will be several sessions in court if the mother does not come to court at all by the way

 

Mikey

[Nabili]

Hi Mikey,

thanks. Good Information... well don't like them as it prolongs my stay... but good to know.

 

The mother should show up..... she has an interest here... you can imagine which...

 

My Lawyer told me that due to the new surrogacy laws they will not let me leave with a newborn without the mother or without a court ruling from the family court. 

 

I wonder if the appealing time is mandatory if both parties consent... so it's not really a fight just has to be done via court.

But oh well... so overall rather 4 months... instead of 3...

 

Cheers

 

[MikeyIdea]

14 hours ago, Nabili said:

Hi Mikey,

thanks. Good Information... well don't like them as it prolongs my stay... but good to know.

 

The mother should show up..... she has an interest here... you can imagine which...

 

My Lawyer told me that due to the new surrogacy laws they will not let me leave with a newborn without the mother or without a court ruling from the family court. 

 

I wonder if the appealing time is mandatory if both parties consent... so it's not really a fight just has to be done via court.

But oh well... so overall rather 4 months... instead of 3...

 

Cheers

 

 

Appeals time is mandatory, there is no way around that

 

I don't know about newborns but it wouldn't surprise me at all if immigration would blankly refuse. Thailand is pretty good at controlling childrens movements nowadays

 

You need time to get passports, that's fast for the Thai passport (both the mother and you must consent in person unless either of you have sole custody by court order, takes 2-3 days, 1,000 + 40 baht and they send by EMS) but your embassy will probably take weeks, if not months to either process citizenship and then passport or get a visa into your daughters Thai passport.

 

Your daughter should have the right to enter the country you're going to too, not only the right to leave this country 

 

[whatproblem]

Marry her ,after baby born divorce her and make sole custody paper at amphur if she is willing ,tell her that way easier to get passport for your country 

[Confuscious]

One VERY IMPORTANT note:

I was married and divorced about 7 years ago.
The mother agreed to let me have "Sole Custody" of the child (in exchange for 40,000 baht cash).

We went to the Amphur and the divorce was signed between me, my wife, 2 whitnesses and the maire at the Amphur.
I had the Thai divorce papers with clearly written that I would have the sole custody of our child.
Also, on the divorce papers in my home country the same custody of the child was cleary written.

 

But when I wanted to get my child a Thai ID-Card, it was impossible to get a Thai Id-Card.

I went with my child to different "Thetsabaan", a local Thetsabaan, a Thetsabaan at the Amphur and a major Thetsabaan in the city.

 

But everywhere I went, I got the same reponse:
"Sir, we don't care what is written in the Divorce papers or any other documents. The law says very clearly that the child need to be accompagnied by a Thai parent for the the ID-Card and we will not issue an ID-Card unless we see the legal mother of the child.

Finally, I hired a lawyer who managed to get an ID-Card for my child paying some VIP people.

 

About 6 months later, I needed to travel to my home country for an urgent operation.

I booked a last minute ticket and went a few days later to the airport.
Everything went smooth, untill we came at the Immigration desk.

At the Immigration desk they wanted to see a "Letter of Consent", signed by the mother.
I missed the flight and was able to fly a few days later after I managed to localize the mother (steady on the flee for the loansharks) and managed to get a "Letter of Consent".

The "Sole Custody" has NO VALUE in Thailand.
It is a worthless piece of paper.
You will need the presence of the mother for everything you want to do with your child.

This is not only talking or saying bad about Thailand, but it is the true story of everything I went trough and I can show you the proof if you want.



 

[MikeyIdea]

4 hours ago, Confuscious said:

One VERY IMPORTANT note:

I was married and divorced about 7 years ago.
The mother agreed to let me have "Sole Custody" of the child (in exchange for 40,000 baht cash).

We went to the Amphur and the divorce was signed between me, my wife, 2 whitnesses and the maire at the Amphur.
I had the Thai divorce papers with clearly written that I would have the sole custody of our child.
Also, on the divorce papers in my home country the same custody of the child was cleary written.

 

But when I wanted to get my child a Thai ID-Card, it was impossible to get a Thai Id-Card.

I went with my child to different "Thetsabaan", a local Thetsabaan, a Thetsabaan at the Amphur and a major Thetsabaan in the city.

 

But everywhere I went, I got the same reponse:
"Sir, we don't care what is written in the Divorce papers or any other documents. The law says very clearly that the child need to be accompagnied by a Thai parent for the the ID-Card and we will not issue an ID-Card unless we see the legal mother of the child.

Finally, I hired a lawyer who managed to get an ID-Card for my child paying some VIP people.

 

About 6 months later, I needed to travel to my home country for an urgent operation.

I booked a last minute ticket and went a few days later to the airport.
Everything went smooth, untill we came at the Immigration desk.

At the Immigration desk they wanted to see a "Letter of Consent", signed by the mother.
I missed the flight and was able to fly a few days later after I managed to localize the mother (steady on the flee for the loansharks) and managed to get a "Letter of Consent".

The "Sole Custody" has NO VALUE in Thailand.
It is a worthless piece of paper.
You will need the presence of the mother for everything you want to do with your child.

This is not only talking or saying bad about Thailand, but it is the true story of everything I went trough and I can show you the proof if you want.
 

 

For getting an ID card, I actually don't know. You could very well be right and the law says that a Thai parent must come. Impossible situation as the Thai parent according to law no longer have the right to sign for her child if she signed away sole custody...

 

Yes, I can really believe that. Thanks for the information

 

Immigration rules for leaving the country have been clarified so that should be different now. Still wise to plan with additional time as it may have to go up to supervisor / manager level

 

There are 3 ways to get sole custody in Thailand

1) The law does actually allow parents to write a custody agreement of their own - if legalization has been done - but that paper is generally not accepted even though it should legally be. Totally Useless Yes!

2) Sole custody through court order - That document if containing the correct stamps is definitely valid. You need to take it to the amphur in person to have it updated into the registry.

3) Sole custody by stating sole custody at the back of the divorce form at the amphur - It does count the same as a court order (after the obligatory waiting time as a court must order, this is a process behind the scene). Both the divorce status and the custody status should automatically be updated in the amphurs computer, I do not know if that always happen

 

By current clarification:

1) I bet rules were not clear 7 years ago 2) You didn't use the correct legal document according to current interpretation 

 

Immigration

Immigration will most likely not honour a sole custody agreement if it is done through point 1 above

 

Immigration will honour a sole custody agreement according to point 2 - with the correct stamps. They can demand the original to see if stamps are valid

 

Amphur sole custody: The officially correct document that you must have is not the divorce papers but another document specifically stating sole custody. You can request from the amphur but from what I have heard only if you have sole custody according to point 2 and 3. I also tried to request it myself having sole custody according to point 1 once and I was denied. 

 

That document only deals with the custody of the child and does not include anything about the divorce and can only be given if there is proper evidence of sole custody. Sorry but I cannot remember the form number. As I said, it could very well have be different a few years back. Divorce papers from your home country are useless here

 

Confuscious: I recommend that you go down to the amphur only with the birth certificate and your passport and ask who has custody. That way you should find out if custody was updated or if only divorce was.

 

I do worry about leaving the country with the child being so young in this case. There will be warning bells going off everywhere if a farang comes with a newborn child without the mother.

 

The OP has taken legal advice and the lawyer clearly confirmed current rules so OP should be OK

 

Mikey

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[Confuscious]

18 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

For getting an ID card, I actually don't know. You could very well be right and the law says that a Thai parent must come. Impossible situation as the Thai parent according to law no longer have the right to sign for her child if she signed away sole custody...

 

Yes, I can really believe that. Thanks for the information

 

Immigration rules for leaving the country have been clarified so that should be different now. Still wise to plan with additional time as it may have to go up to supervisor / manager level

 

In Thailand, every Official has the right to ask for additional documents (or better explained: "Bend the rules to their liking").
I have many people seen been refused a Visa/Visa extention or a depart at the airport because they could not provide the additional documents.

When the guy/woman at Immigration or at the airpoty don't like your face, you are in for a big ride.
The law is one thing and the actual interpretation is another thing.
They are not necessarly the same.

 

18 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

There are 3 ways to get sole custody in Thailand

1) The law does actually allow parents to write a custody agreement of their own - if legalization has been done - but that paper is generally not accepted even though it should legally be. Totally Useless Yes!

2) Sole custody through court order - That document if containing the correct stamps is definitely valid. You need to take it to the amphur in person to have it updated into the registry.

3) Sole custody by stating sole custody at the back of the divorce form at the amphur - It does count the same as a court order (after the obligatory waiting time as a court must order, this is a process behind the scene). Both the divorce status and the custody status should automatically be updated in the amphurs computer, I do not know if that always happen

 

My divorce papers are No. #3 as we both agreed upon the divorce.

Initially they were not updated at the amphur (needed to drive 650 km b/f for a single document a few months after the divorce because of that), but it is updated now.

 

18 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

By current clarification:

1) I bet rules were not clear 7 years ago 2) You didn't use the correct legal document according to current interpretation 

 

The rules were clear and the correct document was used.

But as I said already, in Thailand every official has the right to make his/her own rules.
What are you going to do when an official don't want to listen to you?
Call the Police?
Be my guest.

It is not because that you have the 100% right documents that you will get what you want.

 

18 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

Immigration

Immigration will most likely not honour a sole custody agreement if it is done through point 1 above

 

Immigration will honour a sole custody agreement according to point 2 - with the correct stamps. They can demand the original to see if stamps are valid

 

Amphur sole custody: The officially correct document that you must have is not the divorce papers but another document specifically stating sole custody. You can request from the amphur but from what I have heard only if you have sole custody according to point 2 and 3. I also tried to request it myself having sole custody according to point 1 once and I was denied. 

 

That document only deals with the custody of the child and does not include anything about the divorce and can only be given if there is proper evidence of sole custody. Sorry but I cannot remember the form number. As I said, it could very well have be different a few years back. Divorce papers from your home country are useless here

 

Confuscious: I recommend that you go down to the amphur only with the birth certificate and your passport and ask who has custody. That way you should find out if custody was updated or if only divorce was.

 

I do worry about leaving the country with the child being so young in this case. There will be warning bells going off everywhere if a farang comes with a newborn child without the mother.

 

The OP has taken legal advice and the lawyer clearly confirmed current rules so OP should be OK

 

Mikey

 

 

I hope for the OP that he has the telephone number of the lawyer ready to ring when an official does not agree about the "Sole Custody".

I only named a few points here, but the list continues as the years goes by.

Hope the best for you.

[sandemara]

Any court orders (especially civil or family matters) issued by courts in other countries have no standing or relevance in Thailand. And vice-a-versa.  Have you considered arranging dual passports and citizenship for the child? Could make things easier in future.  I think it would be useful to keep the mother on-side and  "in the loop" of information and procedures until you and the child are on a plane heading out of the country.  From then on it's all up to you.

[MikeyIdea]

8 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

In Thailand, every Official has the right to ask for additional documents (or better explained: "Bend the rules to their liking").

 

Hmmm

 

IMO, it's mostly because officers are afraid of making mistakes and the rules aren't clear so they don't know how much documentation they need to protect themselves.

 

But of course there are some of what you say too

 

[Preacher]

3 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

Hmmm

 

IMO, it's mostly because officers are afraid of making mistakes and the rules aren't clear so they don't know how much documentation they need to protect themselves.

 

But of course there are some of what you say too

 

 

An official has the right to ask for additional documents. But you can ask the official to give you a letter stating the reason why they want to see the additional documents. In case of an amphur, this letter must be signed by the neigh amphur himself. The reason can be challenged in court and they can be made to pay you compensation  if the court find you had to provide documents without a valid reason for things as travel expenses, delays, costs of documents and translations.

 

As my former amphur explained to me recently, when you ask for this letter they will in a lot of cases back-down, as they don't have a good valid reason. Often the only reason is that they don't want to make their own translation or are afraid to translate a western word or name into Thai.

 

 

 

 

[offset]

I have sole custody of my son by a Children's Court order I have traveled out of the country without his mother with no problem my son has my surname which might of helped I also got him an ID card without his mother being present only using the blue book with his name on and the court order

 

I would recommend going by the Children's Court because it gives you a paper which most authorities will accept including in my case Airport Immigration officer, local Immigration officer, Local Amhper (getting ID card) and the Thai Passport office I did not need his mother present at any time dealing with these people

 

It would be a good idea to get some copies of the court order done by the Children's Court when you pick up your order from the court they will all have the official stamp on them not a photo copy 

[Nabili]

Hi all,

 

thanks for the many advises. Appreciated. 

 

We will go to the family court and I have a lawyer to help me present the case. Still good to know that it most likely makes sense to play it safe and to have the letter of consent and most likely the Por Kor 14 from the amphora after we're done with court to be safe.

 

Good tip to know that if any of the officials demand documents that it's good to get a written statement why they demand them.

 

Cheers