How does Karma and Rebirth relate to modern theories of Evolution

[Damrongsak]

I did a week of solitary meditation years ago,  maybe somewhere in Chonburi.  Came out like a wet noodle.

[true word]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:02 PM, lungmi said:

Serious discussion, I agree.

But for myself I stop. Why?

In a german television interview with The Dalai Lama he was asked

what  is his position concerning Rebirth.

--- Oh, I believe Rebirth.

--- and your Rebirth?

-- I will be reborn as a bee, because I love honey too much.

 

if you believe in birth how can you be sure of not rebirth?

In that case Hitler for example who killed and burned millions then he shot himself in the head will rest in peace!

Edited March 28, 2017 by true word

[VincentRJ]

On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:37 PM, rockyysdt said:

 

Aren't all Awakenings personal experiences?

 

 

If that is truly the case, Rocky, then anyone can claim to be enlightened, or at least think they are enlightened, and no-one can disprove it without indentification of neuronal changes which have been associated with the state of Nirvana and observed through an MRI scan.

People who think they are enlightened should offer themselves to such scientific confirmation processes, for the benefit of humanity.

Edited April 2, 2017 by VincentRJ

[rockyysdt]

On 02/04/2017 at 2:28 PM, VincentRJ said:

If that is truly the case, Rocky, then anyone can claim to be enlightened,

Hi Vincent.

 

This has always been the case hasn't it?

 

Didn't the Buddha proclaim Awakening without empirical evidence (enlightenment being an 18th century word which doesn't capture the original Sanskrit & Pali words)?

 

 

[VincentRJ]

20 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi Vincent.

 

This has always been the case hasn't it?

 

Didn't the Buddha proclaim Awakening without empirical evidence (enlightenment being an 18th century word which doesn't capture the original Sanskrit & Pali words)?

 

 

Hi Rocky,

But does it have to continue to be the case? Why not make use of the facilities of modern science that were not available to the Buddha?

The problem with religions in general is that they tend to be stuck in the past. There needs to be a merger between the best concepts of Buddhism and the best concepts of modern science. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

[rockyysdt]

On 04/04/2017 at 10:20 PM, VincentRJ said:

Hi Rocky,

But does it have to continue to be the case? Why not make use of the facilities of modern science that were not available to the Buddha?

The problem with religions in general is that they tend to be stuck in the past. There needs to be a merger between the best concepts of Buddhism and the best concepts of modern science. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

 

I have a feeling that scientific measurement can only be used to measure the realm of Samsara.

 

If you can measure it Awakening hasn't taken place.

 

Nibbana is beyond measurement.

[VincentRJ]

On 4/6/2017 at 3:33 PM, rockyysdt said:

 

I have a feeling that scientific measurement can only be used to measure the realm of Samsara.

 

If you can measure it Awakening hasn't taken place.

 

Nibbana is beyond measurement.

 

Surely such a view, or feeling, is pure religious belief, Rocky.

 

I fist began thinking about this issue after watching a TED talk  featuring a neuroscientist, Jill Bolte Taylor, who described her own experiences during a stroke that occurred in the left side of her brain. Basically, the left side of the brain deals with practical matters such as language, reasoning, logic, and the right side deals with insight, intuition, creativity, holistic and religious thought.

 

Here's her account of her experiences during the time the stroke took place.

 

"And I'm asking myself, "What is wrong with me? What is going on?" And in that moment, my left hemisphere brain chatter went totally silent. Just like someone took a remote control and pushed the mute button. Total silence. And at first I was shocked to find myself inside of a silent mind. But then I was immediately captivated by the magnificence of the energy around me. And because I could no longer identify the boundaries of my body, I felt enormous and expansive. I felt at one with all the energy that was, and it was beautiful there. 

 

So here I am in this space, and my job, and any stress related to my job — it was gone. And I felt lighter in my body. And imagine all of the relationships in the external world and any stressors related to any of those — they were gone. And I felt this sense of peacefulness. And imagine what it would feel like to lose 37 years of emotional baggage! Oh! I felt euphoria — euphoria. It was beautiful. 

 

So who are we? We are the life-force power of the universe, with manual dexterity and two cognitive minds. And we have the power to choose, moment by moment, who and how we want to be in the world. Right here, right now, I can step into the consciousness of my right hemisphere, where we are. I am the life-force power of the universe. I am the life-force power of the 50 trillion beautiful molecular geniuses that make up my form, at one with all that is. Or, I can choose to step into the consciousness of my left hemisphere, where I become a single individual, a solid. Separate from the flow, separate from you. I am Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor: intellectual, neuroanatomist. These are the "we" inside of me. Which would you choose? Which do you choose? And when? I believe that the more time we spend choosing to run the deep inner-peace circuitry of our right hemispheres, the more peace we will project into the world, and the more peaceful our planet will be. And I thought that was an idea worth spreading."

 

The following links relate to recent research on this issue.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12661646

 

"Martin is on a quest to find out how enlightened minds work and whether a certain 'button' in the brain can be pressed that would unlock inner peace."
 

http://www.scmp.com/article/991167/scientist-finds-nirvana-brains-bright-spots

Edited April 8, 2017 by VincentRJ

[rockyysdt]

On 08/04/2017 at 11:02 PM, VincentRJ said:

 

Surely such a view, or feeling, is pure religious belief, Rocky.

 

I fist began thinking about this issue after watching a TED talk  featuring a neuroscientist, Jill Bolte Taylor, who described her own experiences during a stroke that occurred in the left side of her brain. Basically, the left side of the brain deals with practical matters such as language, reasoning, logic, and the right side deals with insight, intuition, creativity, holistic and religious thought.

 

Here's her account of her experiences during the time the stroke took place.

 

"And I'm asking myself, "What is wrong with me? What is going on?" And in that moment, my left hemisphere brain chatter went totally silent. Just like someone took a remote control and pushed the mute button. Total silence. And at first I was shocked to find myself inside of a silent mind. But then I was immediately captivated by the magnificence of the energy around me. And because I could no longer identify the boundaries of my body, I felt enormous and expansive. I felt at one with all the energy that was, and it was beautiful there. 

 

So here I am in this space, and my job, and any stress related to my job — it was gone. And I felt lighter in my body. And imagine all of the relationships in the external world and any stressors related to any of those — they were gone. And I felt this sense of peacefulness. And imagine what it would feel like to lose 37 years of emotional baggage! Oh! I felt euphoria — euphoria. It was beautiful. 

 

So who are we? We are the life-force power of the universe, with manual dexterity and two cognitive minds. And we have the power to choose, moment by moment, who and how we want to be in the world. Right here, right now, I can step into the consciousness of my right hemisphere, where we are. I am the life-force power of the universe. I am the life-force power of the 50 trillion beautiful molecular geniuses that make up my form, at one with all that is. Or, I can choose to step into the consciousness of my left hemisphere, where I become a single individual, a solid. Separate from the flow, separate from you. I am Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor: intellectual, neuroanatomist. These are the "we" inside of me. Which would you choose? Which do you choose? And when? I believe that the more time we spend choosing to run the deep inner-peace circuitry of our right hemispheres, the more peace we will project into the world, and the more peaceful our planet will be. And I thought that was an idea worth spreading."

 

The following links relate to recent research on this issue.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12661646

 

"Martin is on a quest to find out how enlightened minds work and whether a certain 'button' in the brain can be pressed that would unlock inner peace."
 

http://www.scmp.com/article/991167/scientist-finds-nirvana-brains-bright-spots

 

Hi Vincent.

 

I think I viewed her video.

It was quite some time ago.

Quite inspiring.

 

I don't think a "Silent Mind" or "Conscious State without Thought" equals "Awakening".

 

You can spend considerable time in that state (Samadhi or Stillness of Mind) but this is not Awakening.

 

I've also read that this state contains traps which lay in wait for the practitioner.

 

Samadhi (Right Concentration) is one of a number of tools one uses on the path to Awakening.

 

In terms of the "pure religious belief" description, wouldn't we have to take this up with the Buddha?

 

We are talking about that which is the opposite to "Impermanent & Conditioned"?

 

To us, not only is it inconceivable, how could we ever devise tools with which to measure or degine it?

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

18 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

In terms of the "pure religious belief" description, wouldn't we have to take this up with the Buddha?

 

We are talking about that which is the opposite to "Impermanent & Conditioned"?

 

To us, not only is it inconceivable, how could we ever devise tools with which to measure or degine it?

 

Hi Rocky,

If something is beyond description, and beyond any tools we could devise to measure it, then surely it is similar to the concept of a Creator God which has to be taken on pure faith.

Of course, the nature of a Creator God is described in the scriptures just as Nirvana is also described in the Buddhist scriptures.
However, from a profound philosophical level, it seems to be agreed that Nirvana is beyond description. Likewise, the nature of a Creator God is beyond description, from both a common sense and philosophical perspective. Don't you agree? 
 

[rockyysdt]

4 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Hi Rocky,

If something is beyond description, and beyond any tools we could devise to measure it, then surely it is similar to the concept of a Creator God which has to be taken on pure faith.

Of course, the nature of a Creator God is described in the scriptures just as Nirvana is also described in the Buddhist scriptures.
However, from a profound philosophical level, it seems to be agreed that Nirvana is beyond description. Likewise, the nature of a Creator God is beyond description, from both a common sense and philosophical perspective. Don't you agree? 
 

 

I think the Buddha leaned towards a state both "Permanent & Unconditioned" rather than a supreme individual.

 

I agree that Nirvana is beyond description but a Creator God, as indicated by the Buddha, is also in Samsara along with us, only with greater powers.

 

21st century man could take on the guise of a God in the eyes on stone age man.

 

Soon we'll uncover the genetic puzzle which causes us to age and perhaps man can then live for very long periods.

 

However all our powers and might are impermanent & conditioned.

 

 

Yes, Nirvana is beyond description.

 

All we need do is ponder infinity & beginning to settle on the notion that there's a very good chance there is something beyond our noses.

Edited April 11, 2017 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

On 4/11/2017 at 3:42 PM, rockyysdt said:

Yes, Nirvana is beyond description.

All we need do is ponder infinity & beginning to settle on the notion that there's a very good chance there is something beyond our noses.

Well, Rocky, it's looks as though we are the only two interested in this subject, on this forum.

 

I'm assuming that your statement: "there's a very good chance there is something beyond our noses", is rhetorical.

 

Buddhism recognizes that there are 6 senses. 
(1) sight and colour/form (visual) (rapa-ayatana);
(2) hearing and sound (auditory) (abda-ayatana);
(3) smell and odour (olfactory) (gandha-ayatana);
(4) taste and flavours (gustatory) (rasa-ayatana);
(5) touch and tangible objects (tactile, haptic) (spara-ayatana); and
(6) the mind and ideas (reasoning and cognition) (mano-ayatana).

 

In Western science, the 6th sense is considered to be beyond the nose. Don't  you agree?

 

It is through the sixth sense that I am interested in Buddhism.
It is through the sixth sense that I can understand a connection between certain aspects of Buddhism and modern science.
It is through the sixth sense that I can understand how the mind can trick us, and that our impressions, ideas, and observations represent the response of a Homo Sapiens creature to its external environment, and that such responses are influenced by the characteristics of the other five senses.

 

I'm definitely beyond my nose, Rocky. 
 

[rockyysdt]

14 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Well, Rocky, it's looks as though we are the only two interested in this subject, on this forum.

 

I'm assuming that your statement: "there's a very good chance there is something beyond our noses", is rhetorical.

 

Buddhism recognizes that there are 6 senses. 
(1) sight and colour/form (visual) (rapa-ayatana);
(2) hearing and sound (auditory) (abda-ayatana);
(3) smell and odour (olfactory) (gandha-ayatana);
(4) taste and flavours (gustatory) (rasa-ayatana);
(5) touch and tangible objects (tactile, haptic) (spara-ayatana); and
(6) the mind and ideas (reasoning and cognition) (mano-ayatana).

 

In Western science, the 6th sense is considered to be beyond the nose. Don't  you agree?

 

It is through the sixth sense that I am interested in Buddhism.
It is through the sixth sense that I can understand a connection between certain aspects of Buddhism and modern science.
It is through the sixth sense that I can understand how the mind can trick us, and that our impressions, ideas, and observations represent the response of a Homo Sapiens creature to its external environment, and that such responses are influenced by the characteristics of the other five senses.

 

I'm definitely beyond my nose, Rocky. 
 

Well set out Vincent.

 

I find placing the Buddhas teachings in a discussion is a good way to re familiarise oneself with Buddhism, as well as being able to share thoughts and ideas.

 

What immediately comes to mind (my mind) after reading the your list of senses is that the practice of Mindfulness brings us closer to seeing the world as it really us, rather than seeing it through "conditioned eyes".

 

The sixth sense is definitely of interest.

 

Without it there would be very little separating us from an automaton.

 

My intimation of  "something beyond our noses " goes a little further than the realm of Mind.

 

From what I am reading, the Mind is also an impediment.

 

Initially we must use the Mind to navigate through the quagmire of conditioning and to navigate along the path.

 

Eventually Mind will present as the final obstacle.

 

Quote:

 

Do you think there is something very special about realization?

There is not.

It is quite ordinary.

It is just becoming who you already are.

It is perfect peace of mind, freedom from fear, dissolution of ego and a spontaneous unfolding of life within silence.

It can be difficult to drop the mind.

That is the key.

Once you realise this then the pathless path is clear.

Buddhist analytical thinking just confuses this simple message.

There is no teacher. There is no student. There is no teaching.

Cut the root of a tree
And the leaves will wither;
Cut the root of your mind
And Samsara falls.

The light of any lamp
Dispels in a moment
The darkness of long kalpas;
The strong light of the mind
In but a flash will burn
The veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not
The truth of what’s
Beyond the mind.
Whoever strives to practice Dharma
Finds not the truth of
Beyond-practice.
To know what is Beyond both mind and practice,
One should cut cleanly through the root of mind
And stare naked.
One should thus break away
From all distinctions and remain at ease.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by rockyysdt

[godblessemall]

On 14/03/2017 at 10:31 AM, VincentRJ said:

 

I was beginning to think that this section of the forum had been killed off, and that I was partly responsible because of my argumentative style of sound and systematic reasoning.

 

　

get thee behind me ego...

[VincentRJ]

On 4/16/2017 at 0:04 PM, rockyysdt said:

Well set out Vincent.

 

I find placing the Buddhas teachings in a discussion is a good way to re familiarise oneself with Buddhism, as well as being able to share thoughts and ideas.

 

What immediately comes to mind (my mind) after reading the your list of senses is that the practice of Mindfulness brings us closer to seeing the world as it really us, rather than seeing it through "conditioned eyes".

 

The sixth sense is definitely of interest.

 

Without it there would be very little separating us from an automaton.

 

My intimation of  "something beyond our noses " goes a little further than the realm of Mind.

 

From what I am reading, the Mind is also an impediment.

 

Initially we must use the Mind to navigate through the quagmire of conditioning and to navigate along the path.

 

Eventually Mind will present as the final obstacle.

 

Quote:

 

Do you think there is something very special about realization?

There is not.

It is quite ordinary.

It is just becoming who you already are.

It is perfect peace of mind, freedom from fear, dissolution of ego and a spontaneous unfolding of life within silence.

It can be difficult to drop the mind.

That is the key.

Once you realise this then the pathless path is clear.

Buddhist analytical thinking just confuses this simple message.

There is no teacher. There is no student. There is no teaching.

Cut the root of a tree
And the leaves will wither;
Cut the root of your mind
And Samsara falls.

The light of any lamp
Dispels in a moment
The darkness of long kalpas;
The strong light of the mind
In but a flash will burn
The veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not
The truth of what’s
Beyond the mind.
Whoever strives to practice Dharma
Finds not the truth of
Beyond-practice.
To know what is Beyond both mind and practice,
One should cut cleanly through the root of mind
And stare naked.
One should thus break away
From all distinctions and remain at ease.

 

 

 

That all sounds a bit unrealistically ideal, Rocky. Peace of mind and freedom from worry, anxiety and stress is a worthwhile goal and would appear to be something which is realistically attainable because we have all experienced at some time different degrees of worry and anxiety and therefore it should not be too difficult to imagine that an ultimate or maximum degree of 'freedom from anxiety' could be attainable.

 

However, the concept  that there can be some sort of experience or state of awareness which is beyond the mind and free from all distinctions seems very implausible and even downright impossible. How could anyone function without a mind? An awareness without distinction is no awareness at all, like being in a deep, dreamless sleep. To be aware is to make distinctions.

 

In order to be aware of a rainbow, for example, the mind has to make distinctions between the different colors. In order to determine that a particular object is close or far away, the mind has to recognize from memory what the object is, that is, identify the object, such as a house for example, and quickly, almost spontaneously calculate that a house, with surrounding trees perhaps, which looks smaller and less detailed, is further away, and a house which is large and tall and has visible detail so one can see every brick, is very close.

 

Even if one can't identify the object, there are other clues such as the fact that an object which partially obscures another object must be in front of the other object which it partially obscures, and so on.

 

Such attributes of the mind seem so obvious that we might not realize that everyone as a baby had to learn these characteristics of vision in order to negotiate with his surroundings. An awareness which has broken away from all distinctions would be like the awareness of a young baby who hasn't even learned to walk.

 

Now that might be an interesting experience. I have no memories that go back further than the age of 3 or maybe 3 1/2. However, I doubt very much that I would be able to function in such a state. I wouldn't even be able to walk, never mind recognizing the objects that surround me.
 

[rockyysdt]

34 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

That all sounds a bit unrealistically ideal, Rocky. Peace of mind and freedom from worry, anxiety and stress is a worthwhile goal and would appear to be something which is realistically attainable because we have all experienced at some time different degrees of worry and anxiety and therefore it should not be too difficult to imagine that an ultimate or maximum degree of 'freedom from anxiety' could be attainable.

 

However, the concept  that there can be some sort of experience or state of awareness which is beyond the mind and free from all distinctions seems very implausible and even downright impossible. How could anyone function without a mind? An awareness without distinction is no awareness at all, like being in a deep, dreamless sleep. To be aware is to make distinctions.

 

In order to be aware of a rainbow, for example, the mind has to make distinctions between the different colors. In order to determine that a particular object is close or far away, the mind has to recognize from memory what the object is, that is, identify the object, such as a house for example, and quickly, almost spontaneously calculate that a house, with surrounding trees perhaps, which looks smaller and less detailed, is further away, and a house which is large and tall and has visible detail so one can see every brick, is very close.

 

Even if one can't identify the object, there are other clues such as the fact that an object which partially obscures another object must be in front of the other object which it partially obscures, and so on.

 

Such attributes of the mind seem so obvious that we might not realize that everyone as a baby had to learn these characteristics of vision in order to negotiate with his surroundings. An awareness which has broken away from all distinctions would be like the awareness of a young baby who hasn't even learned to walk.

 

Now that might be an interesting experience. I have no memories that go back further than the age of 3 or maybe 3 1/2. However, I doubt very much that I would be able to function in such a state. I wouldn't even be able to walk, never mind recognizing the objects that surround me.
 

 

Yes, it seems unrealistic, implausible & impossible to our mind.

 

However, this is the Buddhas invitation.

 

Letting go and experiencing for oneself.

 

The Kalama Sutta indicates to try for oneself and if it is false to move on.

But to try for oneself requires a considerable amount of effort and faith in order to have first hand experience.

Hence the rewards along the way such as Piti, Sukha, & other states.

 

 

The point being that Mind is impermanent & conditioned, whilst Awareness is deathless.

 

From the writings of many, the closest I can come to describing Nibbana is deathless, universal & without time.

 

If you attain it in this life, it doesn't mean that one drops their daily life.

It's just that the traveler realizes the reality of Samsara.

 

 

It's said that the shell of an Arahant (ones life) continues to go about its conditioned life governed by various forces including Kharma until death of the physical body/mind.

 

 

.

Edited April 17, 2017 by rockyysdt

[Bikeman93]

These are just my own thoughts.

 

Originally there was one, the one became aware of itself and consciousness was achieved, the one divided itself in order to interact with itself and will continue doing so until some threshold level of complexity is reached and the many individually conscious parts become aware of itself as one again. This happens at a point were the complexity no longer serves the larger bodies best interests.

 

The body contains many individual organisms which are not aware of the larger being they are supporting. Some of theses organisms functions may appear to be malevolent, but in the bigger picture they are serving a higher purpose. 

 

In the one contains the many.

[Bikeman93]

Upon death will either return to the lower form or attain a higher form depending upon your desires or lack thereof.

[rockyysdt]

On 2017-5-29 at 10:56 AM, Bikeman93 said:

These are just my own thoughts.

 

Originally there was one, the one became aware of itself and consciousness was achieved, the one divided itself in order to interact with itself and will continue doing so until some threshold level of complexity is reached and the many individually conscious parts become aware of itself as one again. This happens at a point were the complexity no longer serves the larger bodies best interests.

 

The body contains many individual organisms which are not aware of the larger being they are supporting. Some of theses organisms functions may appear to be malevolent, but in the bigger picture they are serving a higher purpose. 

 

In the one contains the many.

The first concern is that there was a beginning (having a beginning already presents insurmountable problems).

 

The second concern is that your scenario features a timeline (from one, to awareness, to consciousness, to division, to complexity, to oneness).

 

The third concern is the need to interact, especially if the one is permanent , unconditioned & timeless/infinite (everything that there ever was & everything that there ever will be, all at once & forever.)

 

 

Samsara = Conditioned & Impermanent (involves time)

 

Nibbana = (Unconditioned & Permanent (timeless)

 

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by rockyysdt

[grobec]

Wow I do love this subject.

 

One interesting parallel to Karmic studies is epigenetics.

 

We are born with an individual DNA that is traceable backwards through our lineage.

Later we discovered switches or genomes that are affected by our social environment. These switches alter how our DNA mapping affects us and probably alters the DNA that we pass on as well.

Nature, Nurture, karmic evolution.

We live in amazing times.

Google Richard Davidson, Danial Goleman and Mingyur Rinpoche.

 

 

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