Bore hole advice

[bankruatsteve]

About 6 years ago, we had a bore hole drilled and hooked up with a "jet pump".  Obviously not the most efficient pump around and draws a little over 4 amps when running - if there were any labels to say what size it is they are missing or faded away.  While it has done its job over the years, lately it's been making a squealing noise and I fear coming to an end of service.  It was used when installed so I doubt I would try to fix when it does expire.  So I'm thinking I should go to a submersible pump when that happens.  I know they are more expensive but maybe can make up on electricity used?

 

I'm pretty sure the bore is less than 30 meters but don't know exactly how deep.  Would that need to be determined before purchasing a submersible?  What size would be needed?  The bore has a 4" (or so) pipe so that should be OK, yah?  Finally, is installing a submersible fairly straight forward, or does it get tricky?

 

OR - should I just get a new jet pump when the old one dies?

 

Cheers

[chiang mai]

Traditional centrifugal pump up to 10 metres max, a jet pump to 18 meters and a submersible beyond 18 metres - if you've got 30 metres to play with a good quality submersible at say 28 metres would work well. I was told that a submersible need more than twenty to be effective, perhaps you could dip the well and see what you've got. Lots of choices of pumps at 4 inches, buy a decent one, Franklin US is one of the best.

[Anythingleft?]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

OR - should I just get a new jet pump when the old one dies?

In a nutshell yes, to have the correct submersible and matched pipe work unless you took the time to do the calculations yourself may not be correct meaning that the unit could, and most likely would, fail prematurely and cost more to run by not being fully efficient

Head pressure, height and pipe sizes and sand filters are pretty relevant to a submersible pump and sorry to say that most installers here do not have that level of knowledge

Anybody running a submersible pump for any good length of time without any issues would be in my opinion quite lucky

Having said that if you do the preparations then I would go hands down with one as I myself prefer them

[chiang mai]

Plus.....lots of iron/rust in the water up to 40 feet, shortens the lifespan of pumps and there's no real answer other than to go deeper.

[bankruatsteve]

Well, here there is pretty good underground water source and I'm guessing the current pipes are 15-20 meter or maybe less.  Would a submersible pump need to be fitted to a PVC same size for it to work?  I have looked at internet topics on this but still not sure what I would need to do for submersible.  My usage is mainly to water the lawn, etc. during the dry season and when the village water pressure is low (which it always is).

 

Thanks for the replies but I'm still hoping to get my questions answered.  

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

Well, here there is pretty good underground water source and I'm guessing the current pipes are 15-20 meter or maybe less.  Would a submersible pump need to be fitted to a PVC same size for it to work?  I have looked at internet topics on this but still not sure what I would need to do for submersible.  My usage is mainly to water the lawn, etc. during the dry season and when the village water pressure is low (which it always is).

 

Thanks for the replies but I'm still hoping to get my questions answered.  

 

 

Submersibles typically come with one or two inch PVC pipe fittings, a single pipe only.

[bankruatsteve]

So, I would need to go down into the 4" pipe with a pipe fitted to the pump?  From the research that I have found, it seems like a 1/3 HP pump would be enough to take care of watering the lawn.  What are the electric needs for that?  Like, are they sold with x-meters of hooked up cable or ??  

 

What experience do you all have for the power consumption of submersibles?  

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

So, I would need to go down into the 4" pipe with a pipe fitted to the pump?  From the research that I have found, it seems like a 1/3 HP pump would be enough to take care of watering the lawn.  What are the electric needs for that?  Like, are they sold with x-meters of hooked up cable or ??  

 

What experience do you all have for the power consumption of submersibles?  

 

On the top of the body of the pump there will be a NPT fitting to thread 1 PVC pipe into. For a 4" pump it will probably be anywhere from 1" to 2" supply. So when you drop the pump into the well, you will have to feed not only the PVC pipe (one piece as opposed to 2 with a jet) as well as the wiring for the pump itself (as opposed to a jet where the motor and electrical supply is on the surface) usually there is a painter line (should be a braided stainless) to lift and lower the whole assembly instead of pulling on the PVC or electrical wiring to get it up. The painter stays connected to the pump body all the time for recovery. 

 

There is also the pressure controller that has to go with the system cause the submersible will run until something blows up unless its told to stop. Nothing complicated but its something that you need to look at. 

[Anythingleft?]

 

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

but don't know exactly how deep

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

Would that need to be determined before purchasing a submersible?

Yes, to answer the original questions specifically you have to know accurately the bore depth and the water height as a starting reference

 Unless above is known you can only speculate, which is where all your problems will start

 

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

What size would be needed?

Depends on the bore depth, bore size and water height

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

or does it get tricky?

It gets tricky if you want to do it correctly and set up an energy efficient, long lasting and fairly maintenance free system

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

So, I would need to go down into the 4" pipe with a pipe fitted to the pump?  From the research that I have found, it seems like a 1/3 HP pump would be enough to take care of watering the lawn.  What are the electric needs for that?  Like, are they sold with x-meters of hooked up cable or ??  

 

What experience do you all have for the power consumption of submersibles?  

 

Indeed yes, you need to fit the pipe to the submersible before sinking it. Power supply is typically 220v, the draw is circa 0.75 to 1.50, cheap to run and normal household supply. If any concerns on the electrics, contact Moderator Crossy via PM, an expert and most helpful.

[Strange]

Ive taken part in 5 wells here. 

 

The drillers cheat something fierce and its very common. 

 

You need to check that its 4" all the way down past the water table in the well. 

 

The local drillers will drill it at 2" or so, then plow out the top with a 4" bit unil they can't go anymore with their turd truck. Then they force the 4" PVC jacket onto the top. For all intents and purposes you have a 2" well with a 4" cap. Works well with a jet because where the 2 pipes meet is in the 4" section and the single pipe goes down in the water table and nobody is the wiser. 

 

You need to get a metal dummy pipe thats 4" OR SLIGHTLY LARGER than the pump you want to send down there to verify it will even work. 

[Strange]

Pretty much any submersible pump at any HP will be vastly superior to the jet you are using now. As far as your HP requirements and consumption, hard to say. If the well is known to be 4" all the way down and you never had a problem with it running dry or maintaining the water table during usage, I would get whatever submersible that will fit in your bore, at the HP you can afford. 

 

HOWEVER, if just watering the lawn with a single 1/2" or 3/4" hose then the outlay might not be worth it and a jet is more economical. 

 

IMHO a water tank and pressure pump may be a better option for both the house and the lawn

[Anythingleft?]

8 minutes ago, Strange said:

Ive taken part in 5 wells here. 

 

The drillers cheat something fierce and its very common. 

 

You need to check that its 4" all the way down past the water table in the well. 

 

The local drillers will drill it at 2" or so, then plow out the top with a 4" bit unil they can't go anymore with their turd truck. Then they force the 4" PVC jacket onto the top. For all intents and purposes you have a 2" well with a 4" cap. Works well with a jet because where the 2 pipes meet is in the 4" section and the single pipe goes down in the water table and nobody is the wiser. 

 

You need to get a metal dummy pipe thats 4" OR SLIGHTLY LARGER than the pump you want to send down there to verify it will even work. 

Sensible advice, so with all the above posts included start with finding out what you actually do have then go from there to see what options you have

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

Ive taken part in 5 wells here. 

 

The drillers cheat something fierce and its very common. 

 

You need to check that its 4" all the way down past the water table in the well. 

 

The local drillers will drill it at 2" or so, then plow out the top with a 4" bit unil they can't go anymore with their turd truck. Then they force the 4" PVC jacket onto the top. For all intents and purposes you have a 2" well with a 4" cap. Works well with a jet because where the 2 pipes meet is in the 4" section and the single pipe goes down in the water table and nobody is the wiser. 

 

You need to get a metal dummy pipe thats 4" OR SLIGHTLY LARGER than the pump you want to send down there to verify it will even work. 

 

Is this another Beware of Thailand stories, if it is you need to consider moving!  I've watched drillers drill several bores for us over time, early this year being most recently. Fifteen metres is a three hour job, and the same tools/bore used at the start as at the finish, the local drillers don't have that many options and they all know that 2 inch bore pumps don't exist in Thailand!

[Strange]

Just now, chiang mai said:

 

Is this another Beware of Thailand stories, if it is you need to consider moving!  I've watched drillers drill several bores for us over time, early this year being most recently. Fifteen metres is a three hour job, and the same tools/bore used at the start as at the finish, the local drillers don't have that many options and they all know that 2 inch bore pumps don't exist in Thailand!

 

2" jet does exist if it wasn't dark I could take a pic for you

[chiang mai]

Just now, Strange said:

 

2" jet does exist if it wasn't dark I could take a pic for you

 

You implied in Post 11 a 2 inch bore, NOT a 2 inch jet!

 

"The local drillers will drill it at 2" or so, then plow out the top with a 4" bit unil they can't go anymore with their turd truck. Then they force the 4" PVC jacket onto the top. For all intents and purposes you have a 2" well with a 4" cap. Works well with a jet because where the 2 pipes meet is in the 4" section and the single pipe goes down in the water table and nobody is the wiser". 

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Is this another Beware of Thailand stories, if it is you need to consider moving!  I've watched drillers drill several bores for us over time, early this year being most recently. Fifteen metres is a three hour job, and the same tools/bore used at the start as at the finish, the local drillers don't have that many options and they all know that 2 inch bore pumps don't exist in Thailand!

 

Im not saying that OP's well is or isn't anything. Im saying to make fuggin sure it is before going out and buying all this stuff because I have seen them doing it in real life straight up. YES BEWARE 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

 

Im not saying that OP's well is or isn't anything. Im saying to make fuggin sure it is before going out and buying all this stuff because I have seen them doing it in real life straight up. YES BEWARE 

 

[bankruatsteve]

To repeat... The bore hole is 4".  The current jet pump has two 3/4" PVC going down to whatever depth - I'm guessing between 15-20 meter.  The water table has only gone under two times in 6 years and then only for a few days.  So, this is not a question of the water source or the bore, it's a question of what pump is best for this.  Again, thanks for the replies but please don't go off track.

[Strange]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

You implied in Post 11 a 2 inch bore, NOT a 2 inch jet!

 

"The local drillers will drill it at 2" or so, then plow out the top with a 4" bit unil they can't go anymore with their turd truck. Then they force the 4" PVC jacket onto the top. For all intents and purposes you have a 2" well with a 4" cap. Works well with a jet because where the 2 pipes meet is in the 4" section and the single pipe goes down in the water table and nobody is the wiser". 

 

If its just 15 meters like in your other reply then yeah sure I'm sure they can drill 4" to 15 meters without bogging their equipment. What I have seen here (Surin Province) with the local pick-up mounted rigs is they pilot hole drill with 2" and use an aircompresor to check for water. Then switch to 4". 

 

They usually take DAYS to finish the job while making a huge mess and they are not being paid by the day. Its just deep. 

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

To repeat... The bore hole is 4".  The current jet pump has two 3/4" PVC going down to whatever depth - I'm guessing between 15-20 meter.  The water table has only gone under two times in 6 years and then only for a few days.  So, this is not a question of the water source or the bore, it's a question of what pump is best for this.  Again, thanks for the replies but please don't go off track.

 

I don't know what else I can add, your choice of pump is determined by depth, not by bore size, see my earlier post - a jet pump will NOT work beyond 20 metres so strongly suggest you plumb your well to see what your depth really is. Plus, a jet pump is two pipes whereas a submersible and centrifugal pump are one pipe each - your 4 inch bore will handle either/or, based on the depth you want to draw water from. OK, I can't contribute anything else that's useful here so I'm out.

[Strange]

8 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

To repeat... The bore hole is 4".  The current jet pump has two 3/4" PVC going down to whatever depth - I'm guessing between 15-20 meter.  The water table has only gone under two times in 6 years and then only for a few days.  So, this is not a question of the water source or the bore, it's a question of what pump is best for this.  Again, thanks for the replies but please don't go off track.

 

The 2 pipes you see going into the bore - they meet at a metal venturi manifold thing in the bore. From there its 1 piece of pipe usually with a foot valve/check valve going into the water table. What I mean is there is more going on below the surface then what you see on top. No way to know how long the 2 pipes are or how long the single is. 

 

Anyway imho if you are just watering the lawn with a hose or 2 then just replace the jet because its been working for years and the outlay is already there. 

 

Jets have a limit on depth but since yours is there and working we kinda know about what depth. Submersibles work far deeper but also shallower too. 

[Litlos]

Even if your borehole is 4 inch all the way down there is probably no way a 4 inch submersible will fit in the hole.  So then you are looking for a 2 or 3 inch submersible which is starting to get specialised and if available in Thailand?  We have a 6 inch well bore with a Franklin 4 inch submersible that works well.  Normally for submersibles there is clearance between the pump casing and the wellbore.  The other common submersible is Grundfos.  If you do find something they normally state their cable length.  The Franklin is a 3 wire cable as the starter is on the surface.  In Aust we used to extend the cables with heavy duty PVC/PVC and use a Scotchcast.  Generally the supplied cables are fairly soft PVC and prone to damage.  The controller/starter on the Franklin runs off our storage tank level for stop/start of the submersible.

 

Realistically it is sounding like it may just be a whole lot easier to stick with the jet type pump.

 

Cheers

Edited October 14, 2016 by Litlos

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Anythingleft? said:

Yes, to answer the original questions specifically you have to know accurately the bore depth and the water height as a starting reference

 Unless above is known you can only speculate, which is where all your problems will start

 

Depends on the bore depth, bore size and water height

It gets tricky if you want to do it correctly and set up an energy efficient, long lasting and fairly maintenance free system

 

Submersible will work at any depth, so depth in regards to this pump its not a concern. Same with water height. The fact that OP has a Jet Pump right now, we can deduce whats going on. 

[Strange]

11 minutes ago, Litlos said:

Even if your borehole is 4 inch all the way down there is probably no way a 4 inch submersible will fit in the hole.  So then you are looking for a 2 or 3 inch submersible which is starting to get specialised and if available in Thailand?  We have a 6 inch well bore with a Franklin 4 inch submersible that works well.  Normally for submersibles there is clearance between the pump casing and the wellbore.  The other common submersible is Grundfos.  If you do find something they normally state their cable length.  The Franklin is a 3 wire cable as the starter is on the surface.  In Aust we used to extend the cables with heavy duty PVC/PVC and use a Scotchcast.  Generally the supplied cables are fairly soft PVC and prone to damage.  The controller/starter on the Franklin runs off our storage tank for stop/start of the submersible.

 

Realistically it is sounding like it may just be a whole lot easier to stick with the jet type pump

 

Yeah its hard to find submersible pumps smaller than 4" but I've seen a lot of chinese pumps now in all the big home shops. 

 

Another thing to consider is the cost for a 4" franklin and controller vs replacing the jet. Them franklins and grundfos are expensive over here. 

 

So your entire setup is controlled by the level in your water tank? How big is the tank? Shouldnt need a storage tank at all with a 4" franklin. Is there more to it than that? 

[Naam]

3 hours ago, Anythingleft? said:

Anybody running a submersible pump for any good length of time without any issues would be in my opinion quite lucky

11 years, no issues.

[KhunBENQ]

Since Dec 2015 we have a 4" borehole at least 40 m deep.

We sank a 3" submersible pump, 750 W (1 HP).

Outlet (2"?) reduced to 1".

8 * 5m = 40 m of 1" PVC pipe down.

 

This pump (smallest submersible we found) is still too strong for a single outlet (garden watering)!

 

We fill a tank (8 m above ground with it).

There was serious concern it could burst our 1/2" pipe assembly to the tank

Fortunately it does not (I do not fill the tank completely, so no closing valve will shut the flow, all manual).

The pump was connected with about 50 m of three wire cable at the shop (forgot the diameter).

The pump cost 9500 Baht incl. control unit, a "better" quality Chinese thing (the first even cheaper  model broke after 4 months).

Highest quality is about twice the price.

 

(to see color picture: click on picture, then right click., "Show ..." or the like)

 

Drilling was a terrible mess. A one day job.

(watch in youtube to see colors)

 

The final:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDaaN1RUFig

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[Strange]

17 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

This pump (smallest submersible we found) is still too strong for a single outlet (garden watering)!

 

We fill a tank (8 m above ground with it).

There was serious concern it could burst our 1/2" pipe assembly to the tank

 

Something about the way your system is controlled is not setup properly. Submersibles should be pressure controlled and this should not be happening. You should be able to use a garden hose and feed a 1/2" pipe just like anything else. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Strange

[KhunBENQ]

No idea. Not my domain.

I switch it on via the motor control unit, water flows full power to the tank.

20 min per day usually for a household of 4 persons.

Can you detail?

There are many submersibles around on the farmland and they also simply go on/off.

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[Strange]

1 hour ago, KhunBENQ said:

No idea. Not my domain.

I switch it on via the motor control unit, water flows full power to the tank.

20 min per day usually for a household of 4 persons.

Can you detail?

There are many submersibles around on the farmland and they also simply go on/off.

 

You need a Bladder Tank, A pressure Switch (Cut-In 40 PSI, Cut-Out 60 PSI) or adjustable, Couple cheap check valves, and a overpressure relief valve. All available in Thailand and everything but the bladder tank can be found at the local hardware store. With this, you can throw away the storage tank, the secondary pressure pump after the storage tank, and supply everything straight. Entire house, garden, shop, wash car, small hose, no problem all automatic, safer, and cheaper. 

 

Right now you have a strong pump that runs unchecked and can very well burst a hose or a pipe. Even OP's jet pump likely has a mini storage tank and pressure switch. Even the pressure pump going to your house from the storage tank has a pressure switch. 

 

Can not run a submersible with only a pressure switch as it will short cycle like a bastard and go crazy. Gotta have a bladder tank. Then the pump will slowly cycle to 60 psi, cut off, stay off until someone uses water, cut on at 40 psi..... 

 

Using them at the farm without any restriction is one thing, but using residential where a house wants around 35 psi all the time is another. 

 

Pic of one I did in the states (easily done here too) a year and a half ago. Supplies 17 acres, 4 bed 3 bath house, shop with bathroom, everything automatic with what you see in the pic. Real simple. 4" Franklin 220V (never mind the taller tank, its not doing anything) and notice the garden hose as well. Oh and the house is 800 feet away from the well.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Strange