It Salary Survey 2005/2006

[pedro01]

Hi

I'm looking for an IT salary survey for 2005/2006 covering:

- job types

- years experience

- salaries

- salary increases

- average bonus

Thai or English would be fine.

Any ideas ?

Pedro

[Farma]

I don’t know of survey results but the wife keeps getting junk mail in Thai promising B8,000-12,000 per month up to B20,000 for IT specialists.

[Farma]

Try searching through this ministry of Labor link http://eng.mol.go.th/statistic_01.html

It may have the information you are after listed on the "Wage Rates for Different Levels of Occupational Skill Standard" link.

[think_too_mut]

My company is a member of 80 companies strong board that has signed up to reveal to each other (in fact, to a central independent board) job descriptions and what they pay for different positions.

Among the memebers are Microsoft, HP, IBM, Cisco, Intel....and many other IT vendors.

In Bangkok, for a specialized hardware engineer with some software skills, 5-10 years experience, salary is 30-35K US$ + overtime (per year). That same position in the US would be 60K + o/t.

Software (system) engineer in BKK would be on 30-40K US$ + o/t.

Of course, it's a foreign company.

Further hint: one system engineer told me, after switching from a well paid job for a Thai company that she doubled her income with us. So, looks like that well paid Thai places would give 20K US$ for software people with excellent English.

[pedro01]

My company is a member of 80 companies strong board that has signed up to reveal to each other (in fact, to a central independent board) job descriptions and what they pay for different positions.

Among the memebers are Microsoft, HP, IBM, Cisco, Intel....and many other IT vendors.

In Bangkok, for a specialized hardware engineer with some software skills, 5-10 years experience, salary is 30-35K US$ + overtime (per year). That same position in the US would be 60K + o/t.

Software (system) engineer in BKK would be on 30-40K US$ + o/t.

Of course, it's a foreign company.

Further hint: one system engineer told me, after switching from a well paid job for a Thai company that she doubled her income with us. So, looks like that well paid Thai places would give 20K US$ for software people with excellent English.

I think I you need to change your title from Think Too Mutt to Pay Too Mutt. I run a foreign company here but would not be able to on your rates which are about 4 times that of India. How can you justify paying rates so high above an Indian company ?

A programmer 3-5 years in my company will earn 35K Baht/month - That's around $11K US. You are paying triple that ! I have only about 30 people. Team Leads on 50K Baht, PM on 100K Baht, Development Manager on 100K Baht. I also know that my rates are roughly in line with the earnings of the applicants I interview for jobs. I do not advertise the rates I pay when advertising a job.

I do see high-end C/C++ programmers on 75-100K Baht per month but they are specialists.

Perhaps that's what you mean.

Pedro

[Farma]

I have found another site that may fit what you after.

It is a PDF file from Gemini Personnel limited titled "Guide to Thailand Market Salaries November 2005"

Scroll down to page 8 for Information Technology.

http://www.geminipersonnel.com/CareerScene...larySurvey1.pdf

The Information for 7 IT job titles includes

Job

Experience

Qualifications

Job Description

Monthly Salary Range Tbaht

Edited December 1, 2006 by Farma

[alexth]

Pero, reading your statement makes me remember of one person here on TV that said a very wise thing. It was something like: "Pay in peanuts and you get monkeys". Cheap labour is not a solution to succes.

[think_too_mut]

My company is a member of 80 companies strong board that has signed up to reveal to each other (in fact, to a central independent board) job descriptions and what they pay for different positions.

Among the memebers are Microsoft, HP, IBM, Cisco, Intel....and many other IT vendors.

In Bangkok, for a specialized hardware engineer with some software skills, 5-10 years experience, salary is 30-35K US$ + overtime (per year). That same position in the US would be 60K + o/t.

Software (system) engineer in BKK would be on 30-40K US$ + o/t.

Of course, it's a foreign company.

Further hint: one system engineer told me, after switching from a well paid job for a Thai company that she doubled her income with us. So, looks like that well paid Thai places would give 20K US$ for software people with excellent English.

I think I you need to change your title from Think Too Mutt to Pay Too Mutt. I run a foreign company here but would not be able to on your rates which are about 4 times that of India. How can you justify paying rates so high above an Indian company ?

A programmer 3-5 years in my company will earn 35K Baht/month - That's around $11K US. You are paying triple that ! I have only about 30 people. Team Leads on 50K Baht, PM on 100K Baht, Development Manager on 100K Baht. I also know that my rates are roughly in line with the earnings of the applicants I interview for jobs. I do not advertise the rates I pay when advertising a job.

I do see high-end C/C++ programmers on 75-100K Baht per month but they are specialists.

Perhaps that's what you mean.

Pedro

I don't know what company you run in Thai, you don't know what my company is.

We are just protecting ourselves from staff crossing the road. Highly specialized, long and expensive training that they have to undergo.

On the other hand, you are right. The company has set up big, almost billion $ venues in India and China. That's where the programmers are, in addition to what we have in the US.

Customer facing staff can not be easily, if at all, outsourced.

I have no dealings with programmers (although I was one). Only "Customer Relationship Engineer", "Solution specialists", "Solutions Architect", "Implementation Specialists" and other revenue generating or revenue supporting staff.

Only in Japan, support is worth 120 mil US$ a year. Then, services come atop of that. Then sales.

Or the sales come first? It's a chain, hard to distinguish who is the chicken, who is the egg.

Edited December 1, 2006 by think_too_mut

[Indifferent]

I don't know what company you run in Thai, you don't know what my company is.

We are just protecting ourselves from staff crossing the road. Highly specialized, long and expensive training that they have to undergo.

On the other hand, you are right. The company has set up big, almost billion $ venues in India and China. That's where the programmers are, in addition to what we have in the US.

Customer facing staff can not be easily, if at all, outsourced.

I have no dealings with programmers (although I was one). Only "Customer Relationship Engineer", "Solution specialists", "Solutions Architect", "Implementation Specialists" and other revenue generating or revenue supporting staff.

Only in Japan, support is worth 120 mil US$ a year. Then, services come atop of that. Then sales.

Or the sales come first? It's a chain, hard to distinguish who is the chicken, who is the egg.

give us a job then

[sting01]

35k a month for a programmer? What language? Amstrad Basic? Pascal 1st generation? Because even for php, javascript/ajax or any scripting language, no one will take the job, or just for a very short time . I do assume at this point you have an important turn around with your personnal.

A competent scripter will earn way more in RAC or scriptlance than with you, and certainly without all the hassles that can exist in your firm.

Think too mutt give the way to go : pay decent salary, train your staff and keep your coders long enought to get ROI. The industry is full of "wannabe Pedro" thinking they can pay peanuts and get 'top of art' work.

To give an idea, a competent scripter (mean fluent in simple languages as php, perl, javascript or eventually java) is able to earn btw 1500 and 2500 $ in REntACoder with not much problem, so why a java programmer, or a perl hacker would work for your firm and earn less? Think about that.

[sting01]

To answer your question, my earning in 2005 were about 80 K bath a month , in 2006 they will be about 85 k a month. I work as freelance and I am not looking to earn less than I currently earn.

[Khutan]

....The industry is full of "wannabe Pedro" thinking they can pay peanuts and get 'top of art' work.....

I don't agree. For many reasons you need a Benchmark of what the value of certain skill-sets are. I don't know what all the different skills are valued at. The market position can more greatly over a yeaar or two.

I don't want to get into the situation where I think I am paying my key staff 15% over market only to find the market has moved and I am now paying 10% under market.

Particularly for the top-end of the staff, it is so important to reatin them. The cost of re-hiring and getting new staff is many times more than making sure one is paying at the correct amount for the key positions.

[think_too_mut]

....The industry is full of "wannabe Pedro" thinking they can pay peanuts and get 'top of art' work.....

I don't agree. For many reasons you need a Benchmark of what the value of certain skill-sets are. I don't know what all the different skills are valued at. The market position can more greatly over a yeaar or two.

I don't want to get into the situation where I think I am paying my key staff 15% over market only to find the market has moved and I am now paying 10% under market.

That's what I am saying. 80 multinational IT companies inform that body of what they pay in different countries and places.

It is updated regularly and staff database has a link to it. Whenever I call somebody's record (I can see my staff only, of course), there is a bar that show his pay compared to what other companies on the market in that country and city pay for people like him.

That way the market never moves without you knowing it. Ah, yes, HR monitors it too and if discrepancy becomes 25% up or down they signal it to their managers.

35K in Thailand for a system engineer would give them same standard of living as what their counterpars in Japan have.

And Pedro maybe does not have requirements for a complex skilled work: system enginner who understand Unix and Windows, Oracle internals, how the blocks are extended accross RAID5 on external arrays where parts of databases live on different locations or even accross the continent, how Fiber Channel card handles Oracle DB traffic and loads of other pieces and interdependencies (microcode included) end to end. Scripting and programming are skills not asked for but assumed to be there.

Since there is a segment that 10 or so companies compete in, none of them want exhaustive salary war. So we hardly ever have crossings to/from competitor purely for money. People come and go for career advancement (say, a team leader there comes to be a manager here and vv) but techies always stay.

Before this agreement, there were bilateral agreements not to hire each other staff. Now, this is better as everyone knows he is paid fair and no need to look over the fence, as long as they like their job.

[psychosid10]

This pdf might help http://www.kellyservices.co.th/res/content...ysalarythai.pdf

PS: I typed "IT Salary guide thailand" in google .. this was the first result

[Zen]

How about the salary of an ordinary salesman, just selling computer accessories to shops...What's the approximate salary per month and the remuneration of transport?

Any idea?

[pedro01]

Thanks for all the comments. I agree with the "pay peanuts, get monkeys" analogy. The question remains - "what is a peanut?".

Rent a coder is a non-starter for many Thais. Many don't have the communication skills to do such work, many aren't interested in being self-employed, many don't know about it. Also - there's not enough work on there for EVERY Thai programmer. The more programmers that go to RAC, the lower the rates will go.

To say that no-one would work for lower rates that RAC is not true - India has a much richer pool of programming resources that Thailand. They are better educated and have access to more experienced peers, yet the rates they are paid are lower than Thailands rates. Some of the gap can be attributed to the rise in the Thai Baht. This gap is being bridged - India has increase salaries by 17 & 18% over the past 2 years. If that continues, they should overtake Thai salaries in another 2 years.

Much of the industry in Thailand is based on low labour costs. That is a fact. It is also a fact that many sectors are losing out to the likes of China. To overcome this in IT, Thailand needs to move higher up the value chain of software development - that needs real commitment from the Government. As it is, IT education in this country is poor. So at the moment, Thailand has an OK pool of average IT resources which are more than good enough for what we do. There are some GREAT IT staff too - but on whole it's an average bunch. There is nothing wrong with being here to take advantage of the low cost of labour. Paying anything approaching US rates is not going to fit our current business model.

The 2 best (and they are by no means good) salary surveys appear to be the Kelly report & then one from ISM (http://www.ismtech.net/SalarySurvey_survey_thai.htm). Use IE to open the ISM survey, otherwise you'll be redirected to the 2002 one.

ISM puts web app developer - ASP, VB.net, XML, Java, C++) with 2-3 years experience at a salary of 27-35K baht per month. Kelly puts Systems programmer/software engineer 2-3 years at 28-35K baht per month. So - even the rates I pay would seem to be at the higher end of the scale.

I see programmers coming for interviews with current salaries of 15K-45K. Occassionally highly skilled C/C++ or Java guys on 75K. I work for a 40 billion dollar company - there are checks and balances in place & I need to justify salary levels. These salary surveys will not really help me much as I do want to award increases. I am having to pay new hires better rates than my existing staff - perhaps I need an uplift for better English skills, perhaps these surveys don't work for my guys with 7-10 years experience. It is confusing.

[djmy]

Hi,

There is a salary survey on www.thaiitjobs.com and i know that E Technology Thailand (www.etechnology.co.th) also has a detailed one although it is focussed on more senior roles, you may need to contact them and ask.

regards,

djmy

quote name='pedro01' date='2006-12-05 10:22:34' post='1017474']

Thanks for all the comments. I agree with the "pay peanuts, get monkeys" analogy. The question remains - "what is a peanut?".

Rent a coder is a non-starter for many Thais. Many don't have the communication skills to do such work, many aren't interested in being self-employed, many don't know about it. Also - there's not enough work on there for EVERY Thai programmer. The more programmers that go to RAC, the lower the rates will go.

To say that no-one would work for lower rates that RAC is not true - India has a much richer pool of programming resources that Thailand. They are better educated and have access to more experienced peers, yet the rates they are paid are lower than Thailands rates. Some of the gap can be attributed to the rise in the Thai Baht. This gap is being bridged - India has increase salaries by 17 & 18% over the past 2 years. If that continues, they should overtake Thai salaries in another 2 years.

Much of the industry in Thailand is based on low labour costs. That is a fact. It is also a fact that many sectors are losing out to the likes of China. To overcome this in IT, Thailand needs to move higher up the value chain of software development - that needs real commitment from the Government. As it is, IT education in this country is poor. So at the moment, Thailand has an OK pool of average IT resources which are more than good enough for what we do. There are some GREAT IT staff too - but on whole it's an average bunch. There is nothing wrong with being here to take advantage of the low cost of labour. Paying anything approaching US rates is not going to fit our current business model.

The 2 best (and they are by no means good) salary surveys appear to be the Kelly report & then one from ISM (http://www.ismtech.net/SalarySurvey_survey_thai.htm). Use IE to open the ISM survey, otherwise you'll be redirected to the 2002 one.

ISM puts web app developer - ASP, VB.net, XML, Java, C++) with 2-3 years experience at a salary of 27-35K baht per month. Kelly puts Systems programmer/software engineer 2-3 years at 28-35K baht per month. So - even the rates I pay would seem to be at the higher end of the scale.

I see programmers coming for interviews with current salaries of 15K-45K. Occassionally highly skilled C/C++ or Java guys on 75K. I work for a 40 billion dollar company - there are checks and balances in place & I need to justify salary levels. These salary surveys will not really help me much as I do want to award increases. I am having to pay new hires better rates than my existing staff - perhaps I need an uplift for better English skills, perhaps these surveys don't work for my guys with 7-10 years experience. It is confusing.

[think_too_mut]

Hi,

There is a salary survey on www.thaiitjobs.com and i know that E Technology Thailand (www.etechnology.co.th) also has a detailed one although it is focussed on more senior roles, you may need to contact them and ask.

The site concentrates mainly on the skills you can find in the bookstores, titled as "Teach yourself in 21 days".

In the "Advanced search" I entered the skills of staff we recruit - no results.

In the meanwhile, all Thai banks, Thai Airways, Siam Cement, Ford, GM, Lotus/Tesco, Carefour and all the biggies use and depend on the "no results" skills.

[djmy]

You would need to be a member in order to search, so if you are not a client member for sure the result will come up as "no results"

so the companies that you have quoted are using the service but they are clients so they are able to search.

regards,

strange how many companies are using the site

Hi,

There is a salary survey on www.thaiitjobs.com and i know that E Technology Thailand (www.etechnology.co.th) also has a detailed one although it is focussed on more senior roles, you may need to contact them and ask.

The site concentrates mainly on the skills you can find in the bookstores, titled as "Teach yourself in 21 days".

In the "Advanced search" I entered the skills of staff we recruit - no results.

In the meanwhile, all Thai banks, Thai Airways, Siam Cement, Ford, GM, Lotus/Tesco, Carefour and all the biggies use and depend on the "no results" skills.

[RedQualia]

This pdf might help http://www.kellyservices.co.th/res/content...ysalarythai.pdf

PS: I typed "IT Salary guide thailand" in google .. this was the first result

The reports specs a programmer/analyst's max at 28K, and a systems programmer/software engineer's max at 35K. But max for a QA type is listed at 50K+. Not to denegrate QA types, but this seems backwards. Unless the QA types have less job security, or are brought in only when needed.

[The Philosopher]

Pero, reading your statement makes me remember of one person here on TV that said a very wise thing. It was something like: "Pay in peanuts and you get monkeys". Cheap labour is not a solution to succes.

Are you saying that Asian folks are monkeys - or are you just another idiot that thinks because you have worked in the West that you know more or are better. IT or IS technical skils are becoming more and more pointless - and the salaries demanded irrelevant due to local skills growing and taking the jobs -- what we really need is experiance regarding face to face working with Thais and the people skiils therein.