Relocating to Europe with an unmarried Thai partner

[kerr17]

Hi,

me and my Thai partner been living in Thailand for the last 10 years together, we have 2 kids (7 and 4) and own our own condo.

We're looking now to relocate in Europe (Spain) and wondering if that's possible for her without being married. 

I have double nationality (Italian - British) and so my kids (which also have a Thai passport), so we were thinking to apply to the Italian embassy, which is where we are more familiar.

My partner obtained in the past multiple Schengen tourist visa.

I was told that not being married would complicate things, is that true?

What sort of documentation would we need and what are our chances to get a permanent visa?

Thank you

[xtrnuno41]

All depends on the demands of the country.

For instance, if you want to stay in Holland, you already have to learn Dutch, its a demand.

Your situation is really complicated, i think. As not married and several nationalites.

You already know Thailand has his rules about visa's, so probably Spain aswell.

I would say check the Spanish (embassy) sites for the rules about living in Spain.

[kerr17]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

All depends on the demands of the country.

For instance, if you want to stay in Holland, you already have to learn Dutch, its a demand.

Your situation is really complicated, i think. As not married and several nationalites.

You already know Thailand has his rules about visa's, so probably Spain aswell.

I would say check the Spanish (embassy) sites for the rules about living in Spain.

Thank you.

Wouldn't however be the same if I apply from the Italian embassy being still Schengen?.

I guess that could make things easier since we already applied there for several tourists visa in the past.

[VBelt]

Given your situation, your partner probably doesn't have to learn any language anywhere, because your children have a European passport. If she enters Europe as the mother of the children, there is no language learning requirement.

Since you don't have the Spanish nationality, but the Italian one, by moving to Spain you'd be exercising every European's right of free movement within Europe. On that basis, your partner will not have to learn any language either, if you request a Visa for Spain, and as a matter of fact, for all I know, they cannot even legally deny her the Visa on that basis (but there may be ways I am not aware of). What they can do, of course, is, find a reason later in Spain why they won't let you live there (not enough income for example). But that is not very likely and the problems may differ from ayuntamiento to ayuntamiento (I saw that happen in Belgium).

I would try to get a Visa for Spain, since this is where you want to stay anyway. Say openly that you're planning to move to Spain with your children, and that she, being the mother of the children, needs to come with you, to take care of the children you have together. For all I know, on the basis that you are exercising your right of free movement as a European together with your children and she is the mother, I think they cannot deny the Visa, at least.

Usually, when you request such a Visa for her, they'll probably at first ask for a marriage certificate, but you have three options - marry in Thailand, tell the embassy that your wife should come with you as your unmarried partner (some countries allow this as well, like Belgium) or, probably easiest, tell the embassy she comes with you as the mother of the children, to take care of the children.

You will probably receive a 3 months Visa, depending on the country a national or a Schengen type Visa. Then, once in Europe, you have to apply for a stay permit. And follow kerr17s advice, call the Spanish embassy first, and just ask.

[nongsangcity]

Spain is almost a no go area.....my friend couldnt get his wife a visa for a 2 week holiday there and they have been married for years and with a child who has a British /thai passport.....they are in Spain Now but they had to use Sweden to get a visa,,,,,...

[beano2274]

Freedom of movement only applies if married however why not use the Childrens Freedom of movement then their mother could apply for a Visa and when in Spain apply for a Residence Card.

Since you are only going to Spain you would have to use the Spanish Embassy and not the Italian one.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, kerr17 said:

Thank you.

Wouldn't however be the same if I apply from the Italian embassy being still Schengen?.

I guess that could make things easier since we already applied there for several tourists visa in the past.

 

When applying for a Schengen visit visa you should apply to the country which is your main destination, or if touring the country you enter first.

 

But you don't want to visit Spain, you want to live there; so you should apply to Spain.

 

Parents only qualify under the directive if they are financially dependant upon the child or if the child is under 18 and has no other parent to care for them. Neither applies in your case. So she will have to apply as your partner.

 

Unmarried partners do qualify under the freedom of movement directive; but the definition of an unmarried partner is up to each member state. For the UK it is living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the prior two years and you need documentary evidence, such as bills, letters etc. addressed to each of you or you both jointly at the same address.

 

I do not know the Spanish requirement, but imagine 10 years of living together and two children should do it; but check with the Spanish embassy.

 

This is the UK guidance; the rules are basically the same for all member states, but the procedures do differ; so check with the Spanish embassy.

 

As we do not know what the position of British ex pats in other EEA countries will be when the UK leaves the EU, it may be better to apply using your Italian nationality rather than your British.

[kerr17]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

 

Would entry in Italy and then move to Spain be better since Italian embassy should be easier to grant me a visa?

Also what's the right visa she should get and what to do once in Europe?

Is it possible to convert a simple Tourist visa into a residence card once I'll be there?

 

[7by7]

The freedom of movement directive does not apply to non EEA national family members when moving from outside the EEA to a member state of which the EEA national is a citizen.

 

So as you have dual Italian/British nationality,  were you to move from Thailand to either Italy or the UK your partner would have to apply under Italy's or the UK's immigration rules, meet all the requirements and pay the relevant fees.

 

As your intention is to live in Spain, you should apply to the Spanish and move directly there as you can do so under the directive; a much simpler process and free.

 

As said, I am not sure of the Spanish procedure; but I believe she would apply for entry and once in Spain apply for a residence card. I am fairly sure that someone has posted the exact procedure before, so maybe a search of this forum will turn that up.

 

I cannot say for sure, but I don't think she could convert a Schengen visit visa to residence in Spain.

[Donutz]

It would be best to check with the Spanish authorities: immigration department and embassy. Most European countries have a website for their immigration department which lists the various options.

 

Immigration rules are different for all EU and EEA countries. They have a lot of freedom (within the boundries of human rights and such) to set immigration and integration requirements. There is however the EU directive of freedom of movement (2004/38) which is meant to unify immigration of EU/EEA nationals and their non-EU direct family members (spouse, minors etc.). The directive does also mention couples in a durable relatioship but what such a relationship is sadly isn't specified since countries all have their own few.The UK requires a relation akin to marriage for 2+ years, the Dutch require the relationship to be "durable and exclusive" without any hard specifications (cohabitation of 6+ months is often mentioned but not a hard requirement, the authorities simply wish to see a sincere, steady relationship and indeed such a thing is hard to specify in detail). Some countries don't seem to acknowledge durable relationships at all.

 

Sadly I don't have a clue if and if yes, what the Spanish see as a durable relatioship aking to marriage to be granted the rights under directive 2004/38. To the best of my knowledge Spain simply does not acknowledge this, very few EU countries do.  But you should still be able to take your partner there under the general partner immigration rules (does Spain allow unmarried couples to immigrate? Some countries weirdly demand that a couple needs to be married or they will not see your relationship as genuine, which in my opinion if ofcourse extremely old fashioned). So... best to cosult with the Spanish authorities.

 

If you don't like their answer countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Malta and maybe some others should be entirely possible. And perhaps Italy isn't too harsh on citizens wishing to bring in an unmarried partner either. 

 

Be aware that a short term visa and residency permit are two seperat things. The short them visa rules are unified amongst the Schengen members, in theory the same rules apply everywhere so except for some small details the procedure is more or less the same and not a lot more difficult or easy. And with the open borders that makes perfect sense aswell, the same conditions apply regardless of where you apply from or where you enter the shared external border. In the real world some countries such as Spain are a bit... stubborn... to say the least and they don't seem too keen to apply the rules correctly all the time. Plenty of bad experiences have been shared on this very forum and sadly few seem to take this up with the EU Ombudsman Solvit and/or EU Home Affairs (EU Commission). 

 

I would urge you to see what the Spanish require for partner immigration and see if you are able and willing to play ball. If so, do as they ask and it should give you the fewest number of headaches.  But you could ofcourse decide to take an other approach: get a short term Schengen type C visa from the country that is your main destination (you may wish this to be Italy). And after you and your girl spent some time on the visa, move to Spain and see what they require incase you and her want to live there. You'd be applying for a residence permit for her, and as said, the Spanish can set their own immigration rules if they do not consider your case to fall under the EU 2004/38 directive. 

 

General info on a Schengen short stay visa can be found in the Schengen sticky topic near the top of the forum. It also contains some link with more on freedom of movement etc. 

 

Best of luck. 

[kerr17]

Awesome stuff, thank you very much for that.

This is what I'll do. I'll call the Spanish Embassy first thing tomorrow and take it from there.

I may decide to follow other path if I see some serious difficulties.

 

 

[theoldgit]

Off topic post removed, the OP is asking about visa requirements not looking for a lecture on the rights and wrongs of marriage.

[laislica]

On 18/10/2016 at 2:02 PM, nongsangcity said:

Spain is almost a no go area.....my friend couldnt get his wife a visa for a 2 week holiday there and they have been married for years and with a child who has a British /thai passport.....they are in Spain Now but they had to use Sweden to get a visa,,,,,...

 

 

What visa did you ask for?

 

I hope this is of help to you.

Almost 4 years ago I married a Thai, I am a Brit but had retired to Spain and had a NIE (Foreigners ID Number).

You can probably do this on line.

The visa she will need is the EEA Family Member, not a Schengen.

 

To grant a 90 day EEA Family Member visa for my wife, the Spanish Embassy required that she had acceptable :

Police Clearance Certificate (from the DSI in BKK)

A health clearance certificate (best got from the Police Hospital next to the DSI in BKK - they know the correct and required wording)

Copies of your marriage cert translated to Spanish and approved by the MoFA. Only the Cert is necessary so very simple. Expect to pay the standard 800Bt/page if you use the Spanish University in BKK.

Then, the MoFA Madrid, required that our translated marriage cert was validated by a Law firm that they specified in BKK, the fee was 1,600Bt

Of course the usual copies of your PP etc.

Getting the visa was not hard for us, the time was spent getting the clearances. etc.

Once landed in Spain you must both go and register at the town hall and then apply online to your local foreign office and make an appointment to start the procedure to get her a Foreigners ID and finally the permanent resident ID Card.

Once you start the procedure, the Spanish Emb in BKK advised us, you must complete it however long it takes and don't worry that you exceed the 90 days.

It took us about 5 months which was fast compared to others that I know.

Once this is done, your wife will need to reside in Spain for a little over 6 months min/year to maintain centre of life and residents status.

My wife was not required to learn Spanish.

Also, she jointly owns property with me in Spain, we bought a condo together this year.

Because I'm retired and had also had an English translation of the marriage cert and supporting docs,

I sent a certified copy to the overseas pensions office in the UK and they reissued my form S1 (transferring medical resources to Spain)

and they included my wife.

She is therefore registered with the Spanish NHS.

I had done the S! as soon as I started drawing the state pension and at that time my partner was a Brit woman, below pension age, and they included her details so she got NHS cover via me!

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[laislica]

23 hours ago, 7by7 said:

The freedom of movement directive does not apply to non EEA national family members when moving from outside the EEA to a member state of which the EEA national is a citizen.

 

So as you have dual Italian/British nationality,  were you to move from Thailand to either Italy or the UK your partner would have to apply under Italy's or the UK's immigration rules, meet all the requirements and pay the relevant fees.

 

As your intention is to live in Spain, you should apply to the Spanish and move directly there as you can do so under the directive; a much simpler process and free.

 

As said, I am not sure of the Spanish procedure; but I believe she would apply for entry and once in Spain apply for a residence card. I am fairly sure that someone has posted the exact procedure before, so maybe a search of this forum will turn that up.

 

I cannot say for sure, but I don't think she could convert a Schengen visit visa to residence in Spain.

 

I think you are right about the Schengen Visa, at the Embassy the OP should ask for the EEA family member Visa.

Since they have such a long "Family" history together, I don't see why she should not get one.

The Embassy will know for sure.

[adhd]

why spain ?  do you speak spanish ?

 

strangly  I also had a desire to move there, for the weather ? better than my home country

[laislica]

16 minutes ago, adhd said:

why spain ?  do you speak spanish ?

 

strangly  I also had a desire to move there, for the weather ? better than my home country

 

 

There are a lot of other advantages IMHO.

You can apply for any job, none are restricted to Only Spanish. Cars and M/C's cheaper in Spain.

Housing costs more in Spain and rents more, but depending where you live, other costs, food etc, are similar to Thailand.

Electricity and water cost more.

Also, depending where you live, can grow lemon-grass, chillies (Thai hot ones!!!), papaya, mangoes and other exotic fruit n veg.
We spend half the year in both countries and I prefer Spain and only go to Thailand to let my wife stay in close contact with her large family.

We live in a south eastern, coastal city in Spain, almost no rain and no mosquitoes! wonderful weather all year.

Easy to learn language, (could already read it even though I couldn't understand it at first)

Great shops with 1 tier pricing, health service, clear roads (except during August! - then it's like Songkran crazy), excellent driving standards.

The newspaper and TV is not filled to the brim with murder and mayhem, there is some of course and it generally feels safe.

People very friendly, especially if you speak some Spanish. Wife's Foreigners Resident card needs renewing only every 5 years.

No entry/re-entry permits or costs.

In Thailand, west of BKK about 10Km from the coast but only in the winter. Teaming with mozzies!

Roads dangerous at all times and worse at others, dreadful driving standards. Two tier pricing. Hard to learn language and harder to learn to read.

It often dosen't feel safe, my wife is always warning me not to react to bad driving for fear that I will be attacked.....

 

The downside is not being near her family.

 

But then I'm a retired, married old person so I can't comment about anything related to working for a living.

However, I think that once a foreigner has a resident ID card, they can work in Spain, legally.

 

 

[nongsangcity]

1 hour ago, laislica said:

 

 

What visa did you ask for?

 

I hope this is of help to you.

Almost 4 years ago I married a Thai, I am a Brit but had retired to Spain and had a NIE (Foreigners ID Number).

You can probably do this on line.

The visa she will need is the EEA Family Member, not a Schengen.

 

To grant a 90 day EEA Family Member visa for my wife, the Spanish Embassy required that she had acceptable :

Police Clearance Certificate (from the DSI in BKK)

A health clearance certificate (best got from the Police Hospital next to the DSI in BKK - they know the correct and required wording)

Copies of your marriage cert translated to Spanish and approved by the MoFA. Only the Cert is necessary so very simple. Expect to pay the standard 800Bt/page if you use the Spanish University in BKK.

Then, the MoFA Madrid, required that our translated marriage cert was validated by a Law firm that they specified in BKK, the fee was 1,600Bt

Of course the usual copies of your PP etc.

Getting the visa was not hard for us, the time was spent getting the clearances. etc.

Once landed in Spain you must both go and register at the town hall and then apply online to your local foreign office and make an appointment to start the procedure to get her a Foreigners ID and finally the permanent resident ID Card.

Once you start the procedure, the Spanish Emb in BKK advised us, you must complete it however long it takes and don't worry that you exceed the 90 days.

It took us about 5 months which was fast compared to others that I know.

Once this is done, your wife will need to reside in Spain for a little over 6 months min/year to maintain centre of life and residents status.

My wife was not required to learn Spanish.

Also, she jointly owns property with me in Spain, we bought a condo together this year.

Because I'm retired and had also had an English translation of the marriage cert and supporting docs,

I sent a certified copy to the overseas pensions office in the UK and they reissued my form S1 (transferring medical resources to Spain)

and they included my wife.

She is therefore registered with the Spanish NHS.

I had done the S! as soon as I started drawing the state pension and at that time my partner was a Brit woman, below pension age, and they included her details so she got NHS cover via me!

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks for your message.....it was my friend who applied for his wife to have a 2 week holiday in spain.....they gave up  with all the requirements that spain wanted....they presented the same info to the swedish office and they used a swedish friends address etc....they were succesful with the info they supplied and after flying and spending one night in sweden they left next day and flew to Malaga....where they are now...

[kerr17]

Thank you all for the replies, very helpful indeed.

 

I tried to call the Spanish embassy this morning (since VFS makes only tourist and student visas) and they don't take call anymore. They only take appointment at minimum a month later via email.

I decided to follow a different path. Since we have 2 young kids and don't want to make the move too complicate for them (or taking any risk), I'll get marry here locally and then at the Italian embassy.

All the procedure should take as little as 2 weeks the most but the only problem is that I need a document from Italy that I can't have it before a month or so.

Once i'll be legally married, we will fly to Italy with the above mentioned EEA Family Member Visa and get the residence in there.

My assumption (this is still something I need to find out) that once she'll be resident in Italy,  she can then register in Spain more easily and with less hassle since both countries are part of Schengen. 

Or alternatively, once we'll be officially married, I could try to fly to Spain and register her there directly.

I would like to avoid the Spanish Embassy here since many people (including people that works in the Visas field) suggested me to. I don't even have a proper Spanish rental agreement and neither an official job (I'm a freelancer and yet didn't register my company in Spain) so I guess they can find valid reasons not to grant her a Visa to move there and I really don't want to take that risk.

As usual, any thought or insight would be particularly helpful.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

[laislica]

^^

I think that it may take longer than 2 weeks to get an EEA visa because the Police Clearance Certificate used to be reasonably quick but took more than 3 weeks when we did it almost 4 years ago. Also with the current situation, you may find that administrative actions may take longer possibly due to offices closing more than they did. Although, I guess that actually getting married could still be quick. You can do all the leg work yourselves as long as you have the time to do it. The alternative it to pay an agent lots of cash and have it all done in a day like we did LOL. There are many threads on TVF about what needs to be done for a foreigner to marry in Thailand.
Note that recently, there was a problem where the Thai Authorities would not accept the Affidavit from the British Embassy but I expect that has been cleared up now. There was a thread on TVF about this. You have to show the original of a divorce cert if you have been married previously, otherwise the affidavit is your sworn statement that you are free to marry and for a fee of about 50 quid the Brit Embassy will validate it.
I suggest that you look online to get your NIE before you go to Spain, even if you never go there, it would not hurt to have the Foreigners ID No. I have no idea what it might cost. The Spanish love paperwork and landlords usually want a copy of your NIE before they will sign a rental contract. You can contact a Spanish Estate Agent and ask about flat or house rental prices and availability in the area you decide to live. they may even suggest how to get the NIE.... Nothing to lose by asking.

If you do it in Spain it costs about 10.40 Euros and you make the appointment online. For a Brit PP it's quick and easy.
If you decide to go to Spain then the EEA visa will be obtained from the Spanish Embassy
To register at the Town Hall (get on the Padron) you need your PP's and a copy of a rental agreement and it is free or just a Euro or two.

They give you a paper with both your details on it.
However, I think that they need your NIE No. before you can be registered? Something else to check.
I mention this just so you can get a head start by getting done what you can now so as not to be delayed once you arrive in Spain.

Whatever you do, such a relocation will give you many hoops to jump through.

Some EU countries make it easier or harder.

The UK however, require additional language skills - reading/writing/aural plus a knowledge of the UK exam.....

As far as I know, at this time, Spain does not.

Once your wife has her Foreigners NIE (resident Card) she can travel to other EU countries with the proviso that she lives in Spain for 6+ months to stay registered.

I assume that if you choose do get all this done in Italy and have an Italian NIE and then decide to relocate permanently to Spain your wife would need a Spanish NIE in order to be registered as a permanent resident in Spain, but you know that you have to check this one anyway.

From my working days, I remember that the best products were after 80% design and 20% implementation LOL

When we tried 20% design it often took hundreds of percent more effort to implement because the goal posts kept moving!
Best of luck with whatever you choose

 

 

[Donutz]

8 hours ago, laislica said:

 

 

What visa did you ask for?

 

I hope this is of help to you.

Almost 4 years ago I married a Thai, I am a Brit but had retired to Spain and had a NIE (Foreigners ID Number).

You can probably do this on line.

The visa she will need is the EEA Family Member, not a Schengen.

 

To grant a 90 day EEA Family Member visa for my wife, the Spanish Embassy required that she had acceptable :

(...)

I had done the S! as soon as I started drawing the state pension and at that time my partner was a Brit woman, below pension age, and they included her details so she got NHS cover via me!

 

Cheers

 

Just for the record, and I know you are aware, but all those things such a police records and such are not things the Spanish authorities are allowed to ask for either a short therm type C Schengen visa (issued under Directive 2004/38) or for residency in Spain (under the same directive).

 

For the free visa all they need is verify a valid marriage and that the EU and EU national travel together (to an other nation than the country of the EU national). This means that a married couple provides a legal and genuince marriage certificate and provides the embassy with a translation so that they embassy or other authorities can understand it's contents.  If the authorities have any doubts they can demand that the documents are all properly legalized (stamps from the Thai MFA and the relevant EU embassy). A statement from the EU national that the couple intents to travel/join together should be sufficient, some embassies insist something more like a travel reservation. They shouldn't but such a reservation should be easy and free to get (and with that kinda pointless except for those who really loooovveee paperwork and red tape).

 

When setting up residency the directive demands that the couple is no unreasonable burden to the state and thus has some sort of income. How much doesn't really matter if you can show you can provide for yourself. Generally this means having a job or other steady income such as sponsorship.

 

6 hours ago, kerr17 said:

Thank you all for the replies, very helpful indeed.

 

I tried to call the Spanish embassy this morning (since VFS makes only tourist and student visas) and they don't take call anymore. They only take appointment at minimum a month later via email.

 

 

The embassy is obligated to allow ALL people make an appointment to come by within two weeks of the request. This is set in stone by the Schengen Code in Visa. And it most certainly appies to the non-EU family of an EU/EEA citizens that applies under the Freedom of Movement directive and thus should be granted every facility in getting the approperiate visa. 

 

But as you can see the Spaniards have a rather bad track record, pushing regular applicants to go to VFS even though all of them have a right to dealing with just the embassy (and with an appointment granted within 2 weeks).   And Laislica's post is just one of many examples that the Spanish don't really respect the EU directives either. Most efficient solutions are either alternative routes or playing ball with the silly and illegal Spanish demands. In both cases reporting the Spanish to the EU ombudsman Solvit and to the EU Commission would also be nice since the more complaints Brussels receive, the greater the chanche that Brussels puts and end to member states whiping their **** off with EU legislation. 

 

Quote

I decided to follow a different path. Since we have 2 young kids and don't want to make the move too complicate for them (or taking any risk), I'll get marry here locally and then at the Italian embassy.

All the procedure should take as little as 2 weeks the most but the only problem is that I need a document from Italy that I can't have it before a month or so.

Once i'll be legally married, we will fly to Italy with the above mentioned EEA Family Member Visa and get the residence in there.

My assumption (this is still something I need to find out) that once she'll be resident in Italy,  she can then register in Spain more easily and with less hassle since both countries are part of Schengen. 

Or alternatively, once we'll be officially married, I could try to fly to Spain and register her there directly.

I would like to avoid the Spanish Embassy here since many people (including people that works in the Visas field) suggested me to. I don't even have a proper Spanish rental agreement and neither an official job (I'm a freelancer and yet didn't register my company in Spain) so I guess they can find valid reasons not to grant her a Visa to move there and I really don't want to take that risk.

As usual, any thought or insight would be particularly helpful.

 

Cheers,

Have you consuled with the Spanish immigration authorities instead to see if you like their answer better than the notorious rule breaking Spanish embassy? Worth a try I'd say.

 

If you do indeed get married you will certainly be covered by the Directive. Perhaps you can consider to get married in Italy instead of Thailand. I imagen it makes the paperwork a lot easier when dealing with Italian, Spanish or other such authorities. Somehow some member states seem to prefer papers from fellow EU countries over far away nations, with or without fancy legalisation stamps. And obtaining copy of various papers while in Europe should be easier to. Just something to consider, in the end you should marry where and when it suits you best. 

 

 Going to Italy first or directly to Spain should not matter.  You might find the Italians more helpfull in providing you the visa without hassle, but no need to apply for residency there first. When you move to Spain there are only few documents the Spanish could ask and prior residency in Italy would not be a part of it or shouldn't have any benefits. 

 

If your end goal remains immigration to Spain I'd apply for residency there. On how to get to Spain I'd either go via the Spanish or Italian embassy. 

 

 

[Donutz]

I know I mentioned the Schengen sticky before but because I lke to make things even easier I will throw in one of the links from there:

 

See the EU Home Affairs page and check the "Operational instructions" there:

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/index_en.htm -->   Operational instructions for the application of the Visa Code are further specified in the Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas 

 

Part III of that PDF goes into more detail regarding a visa under the EU directive.

 

For even better preperation I'd also read the 2004/38 directive itself (also downloadable as PDF in various EU languages from this page):

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32004L0038

 

[laislica]

9 minutes ago, Donutz said:

8 hours ago, laislica said:

 

 

What visa did you ask for?

 

I hope this is of help to you.

Almost 4 years ago I married a Thai, I am a Brit but had retired to Spain and had a NIE (Foreigners ID Number).

You can probably do this on line.

The visa she will need is the EEA Family Member, not a Schengen.

 

To grant a 90 day EEA Family Member visa for my wife, the Spanish Embassy required that she had acceptable :

(...)

I had done the S! as soon as I started drawing the state pension and at that time my partner was a Brit woman, below pension age, and they included her details so she got NHS cover via me!

 

Cheers

 

Just for the record, and I know you are aware, but all those things such a police records and such are not things the Spanish authorities are allowed to ask for either a short therm type C Schengen visa (issued under Directive 2004/38) or for residency in Spain (under the same directive).

 

For the free visa all they need is verify a valid marriage and that the EU and EU national travel together (to an other nation than the country of the EU national). This means that a married couple provides a legal and genuince marriage certificate and provides the embassy with a translation so that they embassy or other authorities can understand it's contents.  If the authorities have any doubts they can demand that the documents are all properly legalized (stamps from the Thai MFA and the relevant EU embassy). A statement from the EU national that the couple intents to travel/join together should be sufficient, some embassies insist something more like a travel reservation. They shouldn't but such a reservation should be easy and free to get (and with that kinda pointless except for those who really loooovveee paperwork and red tape).

 

When setting up residency the directive demands that the couple is no unreasonable burden to the state and thus has some sort of income. How much doesn't really matter if you can show you can provide for yourself. Generally this means having a job or other steady income such as sponsorship.

 

 

Quite right the Spanish do not follow the EU Directives and they have jumped up rules but at the end of the day, if the objective is to get one's non EU affiliated wife into Spain, what can you do? Their rules are it and theory is nothing unfortunately. BTW I have been a permanent resident of Spain, formally since 2004.

Informally since 2000 when I retired aged 58.

Yes, the EEA 90 day visa was free (apart from all the other BS mentioned  I never did tot up all the costs of vanous/taxis/mc taxis, translation costs, Min oFA fees, Brit Embassy and Law firm fees etc Might have scared me if I did LOL) Oh yes, pay again once in Spain.....

 

About Spain and the EU Directives, just to mention only a couple of points.

Let's say you have a UK RHD car in Spain and have all the lights replaces (inc the rear fog light) and you want to get a Spanish number plate.

They will charge you VAT on what they feel is the current value of your vehicle. Quite illegal but what can you do?

I also think that for them to require folk from the UK to have a NIE is illegal and in fact the ID card does not have a photo, nor expiry date and it actually states  in Bold Caps that This document is not valid for the identity nor nationality of the holder.....

The Pukka Foreigners ID is valid as an ID and proof of nationality

 

I'm sure that you know that my posts are based on what we were required to do/actually did.

I forgot to mention that when she applied for her NIE in Spain, they required that she had health insurance to at least the standard of their NHS, another delay in getting the job done.

Had I realised that before we left Thailand, as a pensioner, I could have got that done for free with the UK's Overseas Pension Office.

The 7 months cover we got cost almost €600.

The health company DKV were most competitive for us bearing in mind that my wife was 50 at the time.

I would have preferred not to spend a day or two chasing round BKK and paying 1,600Bt to get the Law Firms validation, I argued at the Embassy to no avail.

Even after all that, the Madrid Office of FA then required that we send the documents to them in Madrid, with a fee of €60 to be validated again, costs of secure shipping etc..

After all this they required that we send all docs online to the Brit Consul in Malaga and eventually had to go to the Consulate in person with all original docs and for a fee of €243, both of us swear oaths that we were really married and living together. All appointments to be made on line and they only do the swearing on two day a weel so the lead time can be weeks or months..... This little stressor meant that I had to get lucky and get "fitted in" without a proper appointment and let me tell you how difficult that was to arrange! The local foreign office had sent us a letter giving us a deadline to present the Consular validated document!

Additional Notario costs should not be forgotten.

Then with a copy of that 15 page document, original stamped and Sealed, our local foreign office  issued the ID Card which has her photo (they took it) and finger print and on the back, my NIE and name etc.....

The cheapest thing we did was to get married LOL

Phew!!!

Having done all this we have since entered and left Spain by simply showing the Thai PP plus Spanish Foreigners ID.

We ensure that we are in Spain for about 6.5 months min per year.

The ID is good for 5 years from the date of first application and renewal should be routine with a cost of €10.40 but I can't report on that until after June 2018 when it has to be renewed.

 

All this paperwork was OK for me, retired with nothing but time on my hands, well apart from wanting to have a life and go on tour in Spain LOL

Secondly, it kept my brain active.

Thirdly it helped me to learn to deal with stress LOL

Fourthly, my Spanish improved by necessity.

 

After the NIE is granted and should the OP decide to get his wife a general visitors visa to take his family on holls to the UK, may I suggest that the visa application leaves no doubt in the UK Border Control officers mind that she has impelling reasons to return to Spain, that they have more than enough funds to sustain them during their visit.

Having holiday health insurance will probably help too.

I mention this because as my wife got her ID, we applied for a general visitor visa, €114, plus a visit to Madrid Brit Emb. (I didn't know it is not necessary in theory)

Since she had only been in Spain for 5 months they refused the visa On the balance of probabilities that she would overstay, not have sufficient funds and need assistance from the UK Gov. I had made the mistake of thinking that the visa was a formality - it is NOT!

However, with her EU ID, we intend to arrive in LHR next April and go to Immigration and ask that they treat me not as a UK citizen but rather as an EU citizen whose centre of life is Spain and see if the Thai PP + Spanish ID is sufficient. In theory it should be but, according to the UK Border control, (I have this in an email) it depends on the view of the Imm Officer on the day we arrive at the border..... We shall see LOL

We have  a 12 hour stop over on our way back from BKK so it would only be a fleeting visit, have onward flights, will take the Consulate 15 page copy and copy of the deeds to a property that we jointly own in Spain.

Good fun innit? LOL

 

 

[laislica]

1 hour ago, Donutz said:

I know I mentioned the Schengen sticky before but because I lke to make things even easier I will throw in one of the links from there:

 

See the EU Home Affairs page and check the "Operational instructions" there:

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/index_en.htm -->   Operational instructions for the application of the Visa Code are further specified in the Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas 

 

Part III of that PDF goes into more detail regarding a visa under the EU directive.

 

For even better preperation I'd also read the 2004/38 directive itself (also downloadable as PDF in various EU languages from this page):

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32004L0038

 

 

 

Great to read the rules, but as I said above.......

Spain is similar to Thailand in the respect that local Officers decide what shall be done and that can differ from Office to Office and officer to officer.....

My guess is that pointing out the rules would go down in Spain, just about as good as they would go down in Thailand. Just sayin.....

As our Dear Old Brucey used to say: Good Game, Good Game!

[Donutz]

Thanks for the input Laislica. Very useful for those who wish to go to Spain. The Spanish seem to be doing an even worse job then I thought (and that was not exactly positive to begin with). 

Ever considered using some of that time to write your experience so far in regards with moving to and living in Spain as a UK national with a Thai wife to Brussels?  Won't bring about miracles but nothing ventured is nothing gained. Though that's just me speaking and my frustration (in a non Grumphy way, I'm a young and more or less happy  positive person) at authorities or other powers who do not respect the law and toy with citizens, couples, who simply want to live a happy life together. 

[laislica]

7 hours ago, Donutz said:

Thanks for the input Laislica. Very useful for those who wish to go to Spain. The Spanish seem to be doing an even worse job then I thought (and that was not exactly positive to begin with). 

Ever considered using some of that time to write your experience so far in regards with moving to and living in Spain as a UK national with a Thai wife to Brussels?  Won't bring about miracles but nothing ventured is nothing gained. Though that's just me speaking and my frustration (in a non Grumphy way, I'm a young and more or less happy  positive person) at authorities or other powers who do not respect the law and toy with citizens, couples, who simply want to live a happy life together. 

 

 

Hmmmm,

PM time methinks.

I note that whistle blowers do not usually fair well!

Trying to change the behaviour of big corporations, not to mention Governments is like trying to push butter up a porcupines bum with a hot knife!

They don't like it up em as Jonesy would say. (They don't like it hot, old TV series)

We expect visitors shortly but I will get round to it soon.

 

[7by7]

17 hours ago, kerr17 said:

Once i'll be legally married, we will fly to Italy with the above mentioned EEA Family Member Visa and get the residence in there.

 

As I said before; the freedom of movement directive does not apply to non EEA national family members of an EEA national when they are entering the country of which the EEA national is a citizen; unless they have been living together in a different EEA state and are now returning to the EEA national's home state (Surinder Singh ruling).

 

You are an Italian citizen therefore your wife, as she will be, cannot use the freedom of movement directive to enter Italy, whether as a visitor or to live, unless Surinder Singh applies; which it doesn't as you live in Thailand, not another EEA state.

 

To enter Italy she will have to apply under the Italian immigration rules and pay the relevant fees, whatever they are.

 

As you are also a British citizen then the same for the UK.

 

So at present she can use the directive to enter any EEA state except Italy and the UK.

 

 

[Donutz]

4 hours ago, laislica said:

 

 

Hmmmm,

PM time methinks.

I note that whistle blowers do not usually fair well!

Trying to change the behaviour of big corporations, not to mention Governments is like trying to push butter up a porcupines bum with a hot knife!

They don't like it up em as Jonesy would say. (They don't like it hot, old TV series)

We expect visitors shortly but I will get round to it soon.

 

I got your PM, I'll read it shortly. 

Going against authorities is usually an uphill battle,  and I can imagen that the higher up the more difficult (getting results at embassy or municipal level being more achievable than at a national level).  Though I have no experience with torturing porcupines.  555 

 

Brussels is on our side on this one though, I and others received good feedback from them. Such as:

 

Results... a bit less, Brussels cogs and gears are slow indeed. 

 

That's all for now, don't want to derail the OP's topic too much. Settling for Italy might be easier for them. Although EU countries do not have to apply directive 2004/38 to their own citizens, some countries do apply it to their own citizens. Not sure if there are any member states left with more relaxed rules than the directive for their own citizens. Used to be that way back in the day.

 

Kerr17 let us know how it all works out. 

[kerr17]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

As I said before; the freedom of movement directive does not apply to non EEA national family members of an EEA national when they are entering the country of which the EEA national is a citizen; unless they have been living together in a different EEA state and are now returning to the EEA national's home state (Surinder Singh ruling).

 

You are an Italian citizen therefore your wife, as she will be, cannot use the freedom of movement directive to enter Italy, whether as a visitor or to live, unless Surinder Singh applies; which it doesn't as you live in Thailand, not another EEA state.

 

To enter Italy she will have to apply under the Italian immigration rules and pay the relevant fees, whatever they are.

 

As you are also a British citizen then the same for the UK.

 

So at present she can use the directive to enter any EEA state except Italy and the UK.

 

 

Ok thanks.

 

So at the moment the first step is to get my 2 kids the Italian passports (they already have the Thai and UK ones).

Then while waiting for a document from Italy to get married, I can start prepare the Thai documents (luckily I have a friend that works in a visa center and can help me with all the procedure while my GF shouldn't have any problem doing all the necessary on her side).

Once I'll have everything ready I'll marry both in Thailand and at the Italian embassy (I was told is easier doing it here then in Italy directly).

On the meanwhile I'll send a friend to ask the Spanish Immigration the requirements from their side (on the specific place where I'll  plan to live) before I'll apply for a Visa (C I suppose?).

I'm still a bit confused on where should I apply for the Visa. Ideally I think Italian embassy would be easier but then this would probably limit me to fly directly to Spain.

 

I'm however thinking of a plan B, which would mean postponing my move to next summer, which would also be more smooth for my kids (as they would start schools directly next September and not very exciting of the move at the moment).

I would move to Spain earlier, April-May, get a Spanish NIE,  renting an house, get my freelance position sorted and so on.

At that point she could apply directly from the Spanish embassy as she would have valid arguments for her to join me there.

 

Any thought?

 

Thank you all for the precious help, much appreciated indeed.

 

[7by7]

17 hours ago, kerr17 said:

I'm still a bit confused on where should I apply for the Visa. Ideally I think Italian embassy would be easier but then this would probably limit me to fly directly to Spain.

 

With respect, I don't understand your confusion.

 

As said several times; you, or rather your wife as she will then be, applies to the country you will be moving to.

 

If that is Spain, then she applies to Spain.

[kerr17]

Yes I got that, thanks.

What I meant to say is that, given the circumstances (being Spanish Embassy a bit hard to deal with) I don't know where it would be more convenient also considering that with the Italia embassy would be everything pretty straightforward to me.