Theresa May to tell EU's other leaders 'there will be no second referendum'

[Baerboxer]

9 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Brilliant. Hopefully that will put an end to that once and for all.

 

It still gives the remainers the opportunity to continually rubbish anything she does for the UK hoping for the apocalypse so they can say "we told you so". Which it won't happen. 

 

Crafty politician. She can indeed state that under her government there won't be a second referendum. Especially as she would need to get parliament's approval if she did request one.

 

However, she can not predict the outcome of the current High Court case challenging her intended use of the Royal Prerogative instead of and Act of Parliament following a debate and vote to instigate article 50.

Whilst May arrogantly dismisses the law and insists it's her decision alone, most UK Constitutional Law experts disagree. Should this be put to parliament, and Brexit is voted against then a general election would need to be called. One which would split the Tory party wide open. 

Regardless of whether you support Brexit or Remain, the government must act in accordance with the law; and not in accordance with what they want the law to be.

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, mariner16 said:

Having just returned from UK after completing the sale of my house that has been rented out since I left, I wasn't surprised to find the whole subject of UK's membership of EU a total bore, in the same way that Trump v Clinton has nothing to do with reality, whether Brexit happens or not is a total irrelevance, the UK as a place to live is finished for me.

 

The main shame is the wasted 43 years that have past, the UK joined because it had to in order to replace its trading links that were disappearing with the end of empire, De Gaulle knew the UK would only be a disruptive force and tried to keep them out, but ultimately once he had lost power they managed to weedle their way in, and, surprise, have been nothing but a disruptive force ever since, with opt outs that no other country sought or wanted, seems to me if the referendum result had gone the other way the EU would ultimately have given UK the option, either you are fully in or get out.

 

However in the same way that a small group of anti EU persons have consistently caused political trouble for the last 40 odd years it now seems inevitable that the reverse will now happen for the next 40 years. The country is split neatly down the middle and the arguments will never stop, in fact are likely to get worse as the more affluent and skilled vote with their feet and get out and the rest are left behind at the mercy of a far right government and an ever worsening lifestyle.

 

You mean De Gaulle knew the British wouldn't accept his every whim? He probably never envisaged a situation where Germany would be top dog and France very much it's poodle.

Btw De Gaulle was the disruptive member of the allies during the planning and execution of D-Day and wouldn't ever have gotten into power had Britain not allowed him to run there when France fell.

 

There is a powerful political lobby to create a federal EU with a highly centralized bureaucracy running things to ensure the electorate are governed and rules rather than served. Look at the amount of strikes, anti government protests, often violent, that take place in France. Hardly non disruptive. And France simply does not except EU rules it doesn't like. 

 

Britain should have stayed in and fought those federalists. Along with the many others who clearly don't like the federal idea or being ruled by Germany and France.

[dunroaming]

9 hours ago, mariner16 said:

Having just returned from UK after completing the sale of my house that has been rented out since I left, I wasn't surprised to find the whole subject of UK's membership of EU a total bore, in the same way that Trump v Clinton has nothing to do with reality, whether Brexit happens or not is a total irrelevance, the UK as a place to live is finished for me.

 

The main shame is the wasted 43 years that have past, the UK joined because it had to in order to replace its trading links that were disappearing with the end of empire, De Gaulle knew the UK would only be a disruptive force and tried to keep them out, but ultimately once he had lost power they managed to weedle their way in, and, surprise, have been nothing but a disruptive force ever since, with opt outs that no other country sought or wanted, seems to me if the referendum result had gone the other way the EU would ultimately have given UK the option, either you are fully in or get out.

 

However in the same way that a small group of anti EU persons have consistently caused political trouble for the last 40 odd years it now seems inevitable that the reverse will now happen for the next 40 years. The country is split neatly down the middle and the arguments will never stop, in fact are likely to get worse as the more affluent and skilled vote with their feet and get out and the rest are left behind at the mercy of a far right government and an ever worsening lifestyle.

 

Yes excellent post.

[dunroaming]

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except EU leaders are becoming v aware that the population of the 'wealthy' EU countries are not at all happy about various EU policies.

 

I've no doubt that they would like to make an example of the UK to discourage others - but will they be in a position to do so in a few months time?

 

Its all 'crystal ball' speculating, but I do agree that negotiations are going on - despite the EU leadership claiming otherwise.

 

It has always been my hope that the EU would have to change and re-invent itself for the 21st century.  That may still happen and it could be that brexit will force them into action.  The irony would be that they did indeed re-structure and make the EU a fully acceptable organisation with us on the outside looking in!

[F4UCorsair]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I am not a lawyer. From the etymology, I deduce a referendum is a recommendation whereas a plebiscite is a mass vote. However, happy to bow to your expertise

 

Nevertheless, Parliament IS sovereign and will be exercise its power as it sees fit

 

Why are Brexiteers so nervous? Can't believe your luck? Got one  b over on the big heads and toffs? Good for you! We're leaving! Bye!

 

 

Not my expertise......

 

Governments can hold plebiscites to test whether people either support or oppose a proposed action on an issue. The government is not bound by the 'result' of a plebiscite as it is by the result of a Constitutional referendum. Federal, state and territory governments have held plebiscites on various issues.

 

That is from the Australian Government website     http://www.aec.gov.au/elections/referendums/types.htm

 

Since Australia embraces the westminster system of government, I doubt it would be different, but of course, it could be.

 

A further search may reveal if there is a difference.

Edited October 21, 2016 by F4UCorsair
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[F4UCorsair]

12 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Referendum not binding , the act that brought the EU ref was silent on the issue as to what happened afterwards

Back in 2010 the referendums not legally  binding

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

 

 

Governments can hold plebiscites to test whether people either support or oppose a proposed action on an issue. The government is not bound by the 'result' of a plebiscite as it is by the result of a Constitutional referendum. Federal, state and territory governments have held plebiscites on various issues.

[F4UCorsair]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

F4U are you a Vought Corsair driver? Fine aircraft!

 

I wish!!   I was a B747 driver for many years, and currently fly a 1.5 meter span radio controlled F4U, along with a lot of other models.

 

They were a great aircraft, without doubt.

[John1012]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

 

I like to think that some MPs, most even, are honourable people who vote according to their conscience NOT just according the majority of their constituents however silly they may be. You do want wise, honourable MPs don't you?

 

Otherwise just replace Parliament with an ap. ?

I want wise and honourable MPs. Yes. I also want my representative (employee) to act according to the wishes of his/her employer. If the employer says , by democratic mandate, that it wants BREXIT, then the MP has two options (if he is wise and honourable?) , to accede to the wishes of the constituents or resign. This is not a normal set of circumstances, where the elected representative is trusted to make a good decision, but in this case the elected representative has clearly been informed of the majority of the electors wishes. If that representative refuses to accede to his instructions, de selection  at the next election.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

 

Governments can hold plebiscites to test whether people either support or oppose a proposed action on an issue. The government is not bound by the 'result' of a plebiscite as it is by the result of a Constitutional referendum. Federal, state and territory governments have held plebiscites on various issues.

As stated before the Act bringing the referendum was silent on the issue as to it being legally binding, whereas the 2011 AV referendum specified that the result would be binding

Can you please clarify what you mean by constitutional referendum as applied to the UK

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, pitrevie said:

 

Surely she means there will be no third referendum as this was referendum No 2 on membership of the EU. However May cannot prevent a future Parliament from holding another referendum on this matter. 

 

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."  David Davis Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union

Lets have the best of 5 shall we? Come on lets be mature and respect the people. Once again TM says there will be no second referendum. Did everyone get that.

 

As for a future parliament holding another one (referendum) the way Corbyn and Labour are going, the Conservatives will be in power for 20 years. UKIP served its purpose and with Farage gone, is losing its way and many voters are for the first time, supporting a more central conservative government.

[Laughing Gravy]

6 hours ago, dunroaming said:

 

It has always been my hope that the EU would have to change and re-invent itself for the 21st century.  That may still happen and it could be that brexit will force them into action.  The irony would be that they did indeed re-structure and make the EU a fully acceptable organisation with us on the outside looking in!

If the EU went to being what it intentionally was then yes maybe I agree it could have worked but the EU was an elaborate plot to control the countries. here from the founder of the EU which is exactly what it has turned into.

 

[rockingrobin]

5 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Lets have the best of 5 shall we? Come on lets be mature and respect the people. Once again TM says there will be no second referendum. Did everyone get that.

 

As for a future parliament holding another one (referendum) the way Corbyn and Labour are going, the Conservatives will be in power for 20 years. UKIP served its purpose and with Farage gone, is losing its way and many voters are for the first time, supporting a more central conservative government.

Parliamentary sovereignty means that a future parliament cannot be tied by a past parliament .

Any future parliament can amend , create or repeal legislation

[F4UCorsair]

27 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

As stated before the Act bringing the referendum was silent on the issue as to it being legally binding, whereas the 2011 AV referendum specified that the result would be binding

Can you please clarify what you mean by constitutional referendum as applied to the UK

A constitutional referendum Is one which will result In the consgtitution being amended If the vote Is In favour of change, as I understand.

 

Unable to edit typos

[jonclark]

15 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

The bad losers want another bite of the cherry, and if that was lost, they'd want another bite.

 

Losers never change.

 

Forget the reasons, the vote was in favour of leaving the EU, the democratic process exercised.....END OF STORY!!!

 

I'm still waiting for the 350 million, Boris, Grove and co promised us back to materialize? 

 

That seems to be the problem - The story on which the referendum was won for the exiteers was based on misinformation and plain lies, which means the story isnt over- If a person lies to you and you find out, do you let them get away with the lie, or not? 'Losers, like winners do change. I voted for an exit (and i'm not sure if that makes me a winner or loser); but I realize in hindsight it was the wrong choice. The promises made to me were utter lies. I have changed. 

 

So where is my 350 million quid a week Boris, Grove and Davies promised? 

 

[rockingrobin]

18 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

A constitutional referendum Is one which will result In the consgtitution being amended If the vote Is In favour of change, as I understand.

 

Unable to edit typos

I think you miss understand , the UK does not have a codified constitution

[pitrevie]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Lets have the best of 5 shall we? Come on lets be mature and respect the people. Once again TM says there will be no second referendum. Did everyone get that.

 

As for a future parliament holding another one (referendum) the way Corbyn and Labour are going, the Conservatives will be in power for 20 years. UKIP served its purpose and with Farage gone, is losing its way and many voters are for the first time, supporting a more central conservative government.

 

One could use the same argument after the previous referendum. The point being that no government can pass legislation that restricts a future government from amending or repealing it in any way.

 

Its not so long ago that we had a centrist Labour Party and as MacMillan once observed the pendulum always swing back the other way so I wouldn't dare make such a prediction of any party being in power for twenty years, some game changing event always turns up.

 

[F4UCorsair]

On 10/20/2016 at 10:13 PM, Johnyo said:

 

 

I really hope you are no more than 12 years old.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

 

I'm still waiting on an explanation of what you mean Johnyo.  I mean it....I don't know what you're getting at.

[F4UCorsair]

17 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

I think you miss understand , the UK does not have a codified constitution

 

I'd like to know Miss Understand!!

 

So does not having a codified constitution mean that the meaning of a plebiscite and referendum are reversed?   I don't know.  Naturally there can't be a 'constitutional referendum'.

 

I'm guessing that the UK doesn't have referendums, only plebiscites, and plebiscites are binding?   All very confusing.

 

I suppose the advantage of not having a codified constitution is that the 'leaders' can put their own spin on anything they choose?

Edited October 21, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[rockingrobin]

6 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

I'd like to know Miss Understand!!

 

So does not having a codified constitution mean that the meaning of a plebiscite and referendum are reversed?   I don't know.  Naturally there can't be a 'constitutional referendum'.

 

I'm guessing that the UK doesn't have referendums, only plebiscites, and plebiscites are binding?   All very confusing.

 

I suppose the advantage of not having a codified constitution is that the 'leaders' can put their own spin on anything they choose?

The legal status of UK referendums is dependent upon UK parliaments wishes through the Act which enables it.

Even referendum that appear binding may become advisory, because parliament may subsequently legislate to remove the obligation. Diceyan's parliamentary sovereignty  means parliament can legislate anything.

[ilostmypassword]

On 10/21/2016 at 9:21 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

If the EU went to being what it intentionally was then yes maybe I agree it could have worked but the EU was an elaborate plot to control the countries. here from the founder of the EU which is exactly what it has turned into.

 

This is a fake. It was not written by Jean Monnet but by an author named Adrian Hilton. Some troll lifted out of Hilton's book and attributed it to Monnet.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Jean_Monnet

[Laughing Gravy]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

This is a fake. It was not written by Jean Monnet but by an author named Adrian Hilton. Some troll lifted out of Hilton's book and attributed it to Monnet.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Jean_Monnet

You need to get with the program old chap. This has been argued in the thread the pound drops of which you have quoted me in there. Have you not read the last three pages. I suggest you do as repeating everything again is a waste of time.

[ilostmypassword]

33 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You need to get with the program old chap. This has been argued in the thread the pound drops of which you have quoted me in there. Have you not read the last three pages. I suggest you do as repeating everything again is a waste of time.

At first I wondered why would a post about a false assertion in one thread negate the need for pointing out it's false in another?  And then I realized I had got it wrong. First, I want to apologize for questioning your status as an Earthling in that other threat..  You are from Earth. It's just Earth from an alternative universe where things that are false in one place can be true in another.  Hail to thee, voyager from Bizzarro world.  I just have one question for you. Are the rumors true?  Is Bizarro Trump a poor, but kind and knowledgeable woman?

[F4UCorsair]

I don't think the feared 'brain drain' is anything to be feared at all.   For every brain that leaves, there will be a hundred from countries like India scrambling to get in, better life, better opportunity, better income, worse weather.  Oh well, you can't have everything.

 

Britain doesn't have a mortgage on brains.

Edited October 23, 2016 by F4UCorsair
addition