May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[evadgib]

Ireland uniting followed by Great Britain joining the US as 2-3-4 separate federal states would solve everything in the long run. We might even learn 'em how to play the game with a funny shaped ball! 

 

Long after the bloke with a shredded wheat on his head has been impeached of course 

 

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

A bit like govt. ministers thinking that Osborne's promised emergency budget in the event of a brexit vote would frighten people into voting remain...   I suspect this back-fired badly and resulted in quite a few voters realising that the entire remain campaign was based on fear tactics?

 

Perhaps they'd have been better off concentrating on the positives of remaining within the EU?  Although thinking about it, it would have been political suicide to point out that the EU has promoted more policies to help the 'ordinary' worker than UK governments!

Totally agree, one of the best posts on the thread, but just because DC and his cronies screwed up big time does not mean that leaving the EU is the right thing to do.

When the government starts amending employment legislation back in favour of the employer everyone will start to realise that they threw away the only entity that could keep the UK government in check. For many reasons the feel good factor of independence could be very short lived.

[pitrevie]

Just now, sandyf said:

Totally agree, one of the best posts on the thread, but just because DC and his cronies screwed up big time does not mean that leaving the EU is the right thing to do.

When the government starts amending employment legislation back in favour of the employer everyone will start to realise that they threw away the only entity that could keep the UK government in check. For many reasons the feel good factor of independence could be very short lived.

I also agree my job benefited under what was known as TUPE when it was transferred into the private sector.  Now I suspect the hard right of the Tory Party will be delighted that they can no longer be held in check.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, Flustered said:

 

 

Anyone watching Question Time last night will have seen Sir Keir Starmer, Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond firmly put in their place and shown to be some of the big movers behind Project Fear.

 

 

Melanie Phillips destroyed Nick Clegg's stance and made him look like a member of the European negotiating committee instead of being a British citizen. He admits to being a European first. One reason why the Lib Dems are a party in decline. The UK wants a government that puts the UK first.

 

 

None of the three could or would say why they were not looking out for the UK citizens living in the EU but only that it would be a good act of faith to guarantee the EU citizens in the UK full rights. In other words...Screw the Brits.

 

 

The only bit of light hearted entertainment apart from these three was the statement by the BBC that the audience represented 55% exit supporters and 45% remain supporters. The audience was almost totally remain supporters going by the noise they made or is it that exit supporters are more cultured and do not scream and shout so much?

You must have watched a different version of the programme.

In the one I saw Nick Clegg brought up an interesting quote. Apparently David Davis is reported as having said " If a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy"

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You must have watched a different version of the programme.

In the one I saw Nick Clegg brought up an interesting quote. Apparently David Davis is reported as having said " If a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy"

Yep I have quoted that several times on this forum but as usual it goes over the heads of some people. However in fairness David Davis has also now changed his mind "In recent months, however, Mr Davis has suggested there should be no opportunity for Britain to change its mind on whether to leave the EU." such consistency.

[sandyf]

7 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I also agree my job benefited under what was known as TUPE when it was transferred into the private sector.  Now I suspect the hard right of the Tory Party will be delighted that they can no longer be held in check.

It is not only employment. Although the the Supreme Court ruled against the government in the 'Bedroom Tax' case one wonders if the possibility of the case going to the ECJ helped in the decision.

[SheungWan]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You must have watched a different version of the programme.

In the one I saw Nick Clegg brought up an interesting quote. Apparently David Davis is reported as having said " If a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy"

You are responding to a Brexiteer who concurrently reads the Daily Express and thinks that Brexiteers are more cultured. So good luck on your endeavours.

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

You are responding to a Brexiteer who concurrently reads the Daily Express and thinks that Brexiteers are more cultured. So good luck on your endeavours.

Seemingly suggesting he has eyes like Marty Feldman in order to read something else at the same time...?

 

Remainders might like this as discussed on the boards yesterday.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39218108

Edited March 29, 2017 by evadgib

[Grouse]

20 hours ago, Grouse said:

What did the EU ever do for us?

 

Here's 42 points to start with

 

These are other peoples ideas that I happen to agree with

 

Regret can not use colour; you'll just have to muddle through....(Those crayons were expensive too - made in Germany!)

 

Freedom to live, work, retire anywhere in Europe

 

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU.

 

More than 14,500 UK students took part in the European Union’s Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU

 

Stability for 476,000 British farmers and farm employees

 

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries.

 

Workers' protection greatly enhanced in terms of safety, security, working hours, breaks, leave etc.

 

Ease of vacations 31M visits to EU countries in 2014

 

Protection against black listed airlines

 

When visiting EU countries, UK citizens have the right to emergency health care

 

Consular protection in the absence of a UK Embassy

 

Consumer protection – quality and safety of products bought anywhere in EU

 

2-year protection by guarantee against faulty goods

 

Roaming rates rip offs stopped

 

Lower credit card fees,

 

Cheaper flights

 

Proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled

 

Enhanced protection from terrorism, trafficking, paedophiles, cyber crime

 

The European Arrest Warrant replaced long extradition procedures and enables the UK to extradite criminals wanted in other EU countries, and brings to justice criminals wanted in the UK who are hiding in other EU countries.

 

Eurojust helps UK authorities work with other EU countries’ to tackle international organised crime such as drug smuggling and money laundering.

 

Cross country coordination and crime fighting

 

The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations over the last 70 years

 

It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries

 

EU has helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War.

 

With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building.

 

71% of CBI members say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses

 

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses

 

CBI estimates NET annual benefit of 62B to 78B GBP per annum due to EU membership (4% - 5% of GDP)

 

44.6 of exports and 53.2% of imports are EU

 

EU exports estimated by CEBR to contribute 187B to UK economy rising to 277B by 2030

 

CEBR claims access to European energy, transport and digital service markets, combined with new global trade deals, could add £58 billion to the UK economy every year by 2030

 

FDI. American and Asian firms build factories in Britain because it is in the single market.

 

The EU has taken on multinational giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would not be able to do this alone.

 

Common rules for the common market make it unnecessary to have 28 sets of national regulations. CE and IEC have proved much more beneficial that the old kite mark.

 

Robin Niblett, Director of think-tank Chatham House, stated in a report published last year: “For a mid-sized country like the UK, which will never again be economically dominant either globally or regionally, and whose diplomatic and military resources are declining in relative terms, being a major player in a strong regional institution can offer a critical lever for international influence.

 

As 28 democracies, and as the world’s biggest market, we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organisations in joint EU delegations – giving Britain more influence than it would have alone. The EU has played a major role in climate, world trade and development.

 

Barack Obama briefly alluded to the importance of the UK’s role in Europe in an interview with the BBC last year, in which he stated: “[Having the UK in the European Union] gives us much greater confidence about the strength of the transatlantic union and is part of the cornerstone of institutions built after [the] second world war that has made the world safer and more prosperous.”

 

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso argued in 2014: “The largest, proudest European nation cannot hope to shape globalisation – or even retain marginal relevance - by itself. It is only together that we have the weight to influence the big picture.”

 

Through commonly agreed EU standards, national Governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, rivers and beaches. Good for Britain and good for Britons holidaying or living abroad!

 

The CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) in recent years has concentrated more on the environment and protection of wildlife and habitat. This is doing much to protect and recover the British landscape. Whereas historically, hedgerows were pulled up to create prairie like fields, this has now been reversed to the betterment of all. This is not possible without EU grant to farmers

 

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expected future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies.

 

EU regional development funding has been a major boon for UK regions such as Cornwall, Wales and the NE

 

Now some will disagree with many of these points!

 

I doubt you will disagree with all of them though!

 

If so, more information here.....

 

http://johnmccormick.eu/benefits-of-the-european-union/

So, the Brexiteers push for me to give a list of positives about the EU. I posted my first batch of 42. Too difficult for numpties I assume? I shall not bother posting the next batch ?

[Laughing Gravy]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU.

Actually in the EU!

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU

Yes and more people from the EU live in the UK.

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

More than 14,500 UK students took part in the European Union’s Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13

More EU students come to the UK and get student loans to pay for them with many never repaying them, so hardly something to celebrate.

 

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU

Figures from the early 2000s and they say they are dependent on the UK being an EU member.

 

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Stability for 476,000 British farmers and farm employees

There are less farms now since the EU and the word 'stability' is very questionable.

 

I could go through over half of these (can't be bothered) and say that through the 40 years progression , many of these so called facts would have happened due to time. This is can hardly be contributed exclusively to the EU. Who is the numpty!

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Now some will disagree with many of these points

Why is that? Is it because they are ambiguous in nature and factually incorrect.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Laughing Gravy

[Grouse]

55 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Actually in the EU!

Yes and more people from the EU live in the UK.

More EU students come to the UK and get student loans to pay for them with many never repaying them, so hardly something to celebrate.

 

Figures from the early 2000s and they say they are dependent on the UK being an EU member.

 

There are less farms now since the EU and the word 'stability' is very questionable.

 

I could go through over half of these (can't be bothered) and say that through the 40 years progression , many of these so called facts would have happened due to time. This is can hardly be contributed exclusively to the EU. Who is the numpty!

Why is that? Is it because they are ambiguous in nature and factually incorrect.

Well I appreciate the response

 

They are my opinions and whereas I don't guarantee precision, they are roughly correct

 

Yes some things could have happened anyway, who knows?

 

Shall I post the next batch or is it all too boring now?

[Khun Han]

Excellent live updates service on the Beeb here:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-39424391

[Khun Han]

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 8:13 AM, dick dasterdly said:

Which brings us back nicely to the debating trick of insisting that those who voted brexit were voting against "little brown people'/Osborne was only forecasting (with his promised punishment budget) the result of a brexit win, rather than ratcheting up "Project Fear"/those who voted brexit were "numpties".

 

I can't be the only one who is sick and tired of these "debating tricks"!

 

And when you take into account the fact that most of us in these discussions have family who are "little brown people" (his words), this particular debating tactic is more than offensive on a general level: it's hugely offensive on a personal level. Makes one wonder what, if any, connection he has with Thailand.

[pitrevie]

37 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And when you take into account the fact that most of us in these discussions have family who are "little brown people" (his words), this particular debating tactic is more than offensive on a general level: it's hugely offensive on a personal level. Makes one wonder what, if any, connection he has with Thailand.

Do spare me your fake outrage, you and DD can not supply me with anything that suggests it was meant in the way you have decided to take it. This was the main thrust of the poster that Farage published (which even made Gove shudder but apparently which neither you nor DD have anything to say about)and contrary to what DD tries to say about immigration from the poorer parts of Eastern Europe it showed a long line of exclusively brown people and in fact was a picture of refugees outside the borders of the EU not within. It had nothing to do with the free movement of labour it was a pure scare tactic based on race so please spare me your fake offence.

It was a main theme of Johnson and Gove when they knew there was never any chance of Turkey being admitted to the EU telling us that over 300,000 immigrants a year was impossible to integrate and he was another who referred to to Turks overwhelming Europe, the Sunday Express actually claimed that 12 million Turks were intending to come to Europe. Note again nothing to do with the free movement of Labour within the EU borders but people who had darker skins. 

To listen to Brexiters now trying to claim the moral high ground when one of the three principal themes of their campaign was controlling immigration (since abandoned) and indeed it was the principal theme of the UKIP campaign who now want to reconstruct themselves as an anti immigration party. 

Find me any statement that I have posted suggesting all Brexiters are racists. But what I will say and what the journalist Wil Self said was not all Brexiters are racist but all racists were Brexiters. 

 

[evadgib]

Looking forward to PMQs in 10 mins followed by that starting gun 

Edited March 29, 2017 by evadgib

[SheungWan]

22 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Looking forward to PMQs in 10 mins followed by that starting gun 

Lord Kerr re Article 50: "It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on'.

[Laughing Gravy]

Theresa May's Brexit speech live in Parliament is truly Churchillian. Well done and what a honest and true response for what the UK wants, with the EU. It is over to Brussels now but that what a hand of hope and if you don't accept it, then go and <deleted>. Bravo Bravo

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Lord Kerr re Article 50: "It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on'.

Isn't it about time you accepted it and 'manned up'. Criticise later if need to but if you are British, act like a patriot regardless, if you agree with the referendum or not.

[Flustered]

Glad the exit has been triggered, now we can do away with Project Fear and get down to realistic negotiations.

 

Interesting to see that the DZ bank predict a hard Brexit attitude from the EU will put Germany into recession and cost it £34 Billion by the end of this year alone.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/673068/Germany-Brexit-EU-referendum-banks-economy-recession

 

As most of us have stated, the exit will be negotiated with a give and take and all of the negative rhetoric from Brussels being put aside and Industry and Finance telling their politicians to get real and agree an amicable arrangement.

 

I know it is not what the Bremoaners want, but rather than a disaster purely to say they were right,  it will be a compromise.

 

 

[SheungWan]

20 minutes ago, nontabury said:

What makes you think he's British,let alone a patriot.

Do you not know that he's William Joyce's grandson?

I have reported this unacceptable slur to the moderators.

[nontabury]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I have reported this unacceptable slur to the moderators.

Your welcome. It's about time I took another holiday. However I am surprised that you've not taken an holiday, as on many occasions you have gone much further.

 

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Lord Kerr re Article 50: "It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on'.

 

26 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Isn't it about time you accepted it and 'manned up'. Criticise later if need to but if you are British, act like a patriot regardless, if you agree with the referendum or not.

I wondered who would bite and not be bothered to do a little actual research. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard is the author of Article 50. Lord Kerr had a long career in the British Foreign Office and jobs included British Ambassador to Washington and the EU. He drew up the clause as part of the responsibility as secretary-general of the European Convention. Still active as a member of the House Of Lords, another institution labelled with the Supreme Court and High Court as 'Enemies of the People' by certain Brexiteers.

[Flustered]

On 28/03/2017 at 9:26 AM, AlexRich said:

 

It's all about personal attacks and no research contributions?

 

 ... if posters are highlighting articles from the Guardian (and others) ... on points like Davis, Fox and Johnson not wanting a hard line on immigration as they do not want to harm the economy ... that does not represent a 'contribution' to the debate? 

 

And when you refer to people who would prefer to remain as 'losers' are you not also guilty of 'personal attacks'?

 

... back to your fictional moral high ground!

 

 

 

Still waiting to hear from you as to which FM I called a looser

[Flustered]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I have reported this unacceptable slur to the moderators.

Lighten up and stop flaming people.

 

It's a forum and if you take a particular stance, someone will always take an oposit view.

 

It may help your cause if you posted a contribution to the thread rather than make oblique remarks or try to bait FMs.

 

You occasionally make a good point and then ruin it by trying to adopt a superior attitude that makes you look offensive..

[Scott]

I strongly suggest you treat others in a civil manner and stay on topic.   One person is now on suspension.  

 

Posts have been removed. 

[Flustered]

Amazing how the protagonists behind Project Fear twist and spin as well as adding words that were never spoken in the hope that some of the more gullible public will believe them.

 

Tim Farron stated 

“It is shameful that Theresa May has threatened to withdraw security co-operation from our closest neighbours and allies. With growing terrorist threats from around the world, it is imperative that we work together with European allies for our mutual security. She is prepared to put the safety of British and European citizens on the line just so she can deliver her hard Brexit.”

 

Theresa May stated.

"In security terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/theresa-may-triggers-article-50-with-warning-of-consequences-for-uk

 

No such threat was made and only the stupid and gullible would ever believe this. Another reason why the Lib Dems are becoming a ghost of a party.

 

Pure scaremongering.

[3NUMBAS]

The krauts will soon be sobbing as they have to plug the hole from no further UK payments ..And the other 26 will still want their grubby handouts but UK won't be paying as their factories start laying off car workers..Just wait for the EU to implode in the coming months from cash shortages 

[citybiker]

So it starts, and the EU response is hardly predictable.

The 'Security Co-Operation' inclusion appears to have ruffled a few feathers with the EU top table, and Antonio and Guy's press conference clearly showed their discontent on the issue.

No10's gentle reminder and a tactical, wise and strategic move.

FAO: EU, this your wake up call...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Donutz]

On 28-3-2017 at 4:39 PM, Flustered said:

I think that everyone has to admit that there were some good parts of the EU and some very bad parts. I don't think that any two people will have the same opinion about how the EU should be run.

 

 

For me it was always about a common market. I have no problem with living and working in each others countries as long as the benefits issue would be resolved. I believe that if you are looking for work an can support yourself, you should be allowed to travel freely. Same for living. If you can support yourself and not be a burden on the country you choose to live in, then you should be free to live there. I do not agree with the political integration that Frau Merkel and her ilk are after.

 

 

I object to anyone moving to any country simply because the benefits are better than their own. Once we are out of the EU, the benefit traveller will disappear.

 

 

Also I think that a case could be made for freedom of movement by simply denying benefits to anyone travelling to the UK to look for work and if found, a long period of continuous employment required before they are eligible. This would cut down the number considerably.

 

 

No matter what we think, we are coming out and whatever the negotiating committee agrees with the EU will be what happens (unless some brain dead person wants to challenge it in the courts). For good or for bad, this is the situation.

So you support the current freedom of movement system? Afterall EU/EEA nationals and their non-EU/EEA direct family members cannot simply move to a country and claim benefits. They need to be self sufficient, need to show a good reason to relocate (if staying over 3 months) such as work or study or beeing a job seeker. One cannot become an unreasonable burden to the state, one be declined free money (though no EU law stops a member state from handing out cash if they felt like doing so but then you'd should blame the national parliament such as perhaps Westminster) etc.   Only after extended stay (think 5+ years) do rights become more solid, and rightfully so I'd think if one has been paying taxes, pensions and such things.

 

I think 7by7 had several extensive posts on thus subject way back into this thread. But some example to sites which (sadly with little results it seems? Seeing there are still people who think the EU makes countries like the UK and NL hand out 'free money' to every person who unpacks their bags on their soil....). 

- https://fullfact.org/immigration/migration-and-welfare-benefits/

- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/14/uk-can-refuse-benefits-to-unemployed-eu-migrants-judges-rule

- http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.nl/2015/09/eu-citizens-access-to-benefits-cjeu.html

- ....

[Flustered]

The problem comes with the EU law that says you cannot discriminate against people from member States.

 

So whatever we pay our UK Nationals, we have to pay the same to everyone else.

 

I have no problem with this for anyone who has become UK resident or citizen and intends to make the UK their country of residence.

 

The EU could have resolved this themselves with a simple standardisation of minimum pay and  benefit rates, after all, the EU love standardisation so why not this area?

 

The EU elite in Brussels have dug their own grave. It is only a matter of time before the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down.