May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[pitrevie]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're quite right, there are so many pointless/biased links on this thread that I rarely bother reading them any more .

 

For the sake of those of us who are fed-up with carefully reading every link, I'd be very grateful if you would provide a summary outlining how each link proves that Nontanbury's list was incorrect.  It makes it far easier to then decide which links to read.

Really and yet the Nontabury list contains not one link to indicate its validity or not but it falls to me to prove that any each, or every one is incorrect. I always thought that it was incumbent on the person making the claims to provide the evidence. 

 

However the list contain some very straightforward statements. 

"UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.."

Dont forget Mr Wong will soon own a nuclear power station in the UK. Apparently its bad to have nationalized state companies owning anything in the UK so we allow a communist state owned enterprise to own them instead.

He could also have added Rolls Royce cars sold to the Germans and many more besides

 

Apparently this is somehow the result of us being in the EU that British companies were sold to foreigners. For some reason you don't see this being repeated on this scale by the other members of the EU. As I said previously obviously us Brits are in a different EU and are being forced by the EU Mark 1 into selling off our assets.

 

Simple question for everyone, During the 80's our family silver was sold off to the public. British Gas etc and we were told the new owners were going to be Syd.

 

1. How many forums members bought shares in these sell offs of state assets?

2. How many people still have the shares?

3. How many people sold them off immediately for a quick profit?

 

The answer to Q3 will tell you who is responsible for many of these British companies now being in Foreign hands.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

33 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're quite right, there are so many pointless/biased links on this thread that I rarely bother reading them any more .

 

For the sake of those of us who are fed-up with carefully reading every link, I'd be very grateful if you would provide a summary outlining how each link proves that Nontanbury's list was incorrect.  It makes it far easier to then decide which links to read.

 

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I was involved with the relocation of a high tech, highly automated electronics sub-assembly plant from Portsmouth to Thailand. The UK plant could not turn a profit even when 100% loaded. Only marginal in Thailand. 

 

In someways, we have only ourselves to blame. More and more for less and less. And do you know what? The people actually doing the work don't benefit, the shareholders do. If I told you that the REALLY clever part of a DVD/RW costs about 2 USD would you be surprised?

 

We need some good solutions; Brexit is not one of them ?

It would also help if posters didn't use acronyms, apart from the well known..

 

But perhaps DVD/RW makes sense to everyone else?

Edited May 8, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

We've been through this argument so many times previously....  The EU (even after brexit) is showing no sign of changing its attitude and stance.

 

You think Macron is interested in (even if he had the power) to force them into changing?  I doubt it.

He's already said so! You accusing him of lying already???

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

It would also help if posters didn't use capital letter abbreviations, apart from the well known..

 

But perhaps DVD/RW makes sense to everyone else?

Sorry! Bloody TLAs again ?

 

DVD is digital versatile disk

 

RW is readwritable

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

He's already said so! You accusing him of lying already???

Yes.

[Naam]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

I recognize that UK industrial efficiency has historically been generally poor but since 1973, the UK's industrial capability has been allowed to be systematically further eroded, at least partially, by EU rules and governments. The Common Fishing Policy, expensive energy (due to EU) and more subsidies to other areas of the EU are all causes of declines in some UK industries. And of course these grants are largely enabled by the UK's net contribution to the EU pot!  

Honourable Sir Nauseus, Esq.,

i can't make up my mind whether whether your comments make me or (nomen est omen) make me nauseous that i

[dick dasterdly]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I was involved with the relocation of a high tech, highly automated electronics sub-assembly plant from Portsmouth to Thailand. The UK plant could not turn a profit even when 100% loaded. Only marginal in Thailand. 

 

In someways, we have only ourselves to blame. More and more for less and less. And do you know what? The people actually doing the work don't benefit, the shareholders do. If I told you that the REALLY clever part of a DVD/RW costs about 2 USD would you be surprised?

 

We need some good solutions; Brexit is not one of them ?

 

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

It would also help if posters didn't use acronyms, apart from the well known..

 

But perhaps DVD/RW makes sense to everyone else?

 

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry! Bloody TLAs again ?

 

DVD is digital versatile disk

 

RW is readwritable

My mistake.  I assumed that the original post about "the REALLY clever part of a DVD/RW costs about 2 USD" meant something other other than the ordinary understanding of a DVD.  What precisely is the "REALLY clever part"?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Naam said:

Honourable Sir Nauseus, Esq.,

i can't make up my mind whether whether your comments make me or (nomen est omen) make me nauseous that i

I wouldn't bother wondering if I were you, as you have so clearly made up your mind already, and have nothing other than insults left to offer.

Edited May 8, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Naam]

sorry double posting!

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Naam

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I appreciate the wise comments.

 

what sort of EU rules (governments?) have negatively affected UK manufacturing. We've had to meet environmental and safety standards etc; isn't down to Con policies, short termism and the overriding goal of shareholder value?

 

We should have gone nuclear in a big way with our own AGR and fast breeder reactors. France are 80% nuclear. Germany is shutting theirs down! We just don't look at the long term. Where are the engineers in government???

 

It occurs that some will not be au fait with PWR, BWR, AGR 

 

http://www-diva.eng.cam.ac.uk/mphil-in-nuclear-energy/external-lectures/2011-12-lectures/edf-energy-ng-cambridge-09022012.pdf

 

Better I should have said EU regulations and that successive UK governments that have allowed the excessive erosion of UK industry plus engineering nous and capability with it.   

Edited May 8, 2017 by nauseus

[mommysboy]

UK is where it is because we went for the cheap buck time and again, in the process woefully neglecting our manufacturing base.

 

We financed growth by consumerism and ultimately crippling debt.

 

We indulged the fantasy of home ownership for all, over affordable housing.

 

We invented things, and then sold the opportunity short by allowing foreign take overs.

 

Our workforce is hamstrung from accepting low pay (but adequate) jobs because of debt and the high cost of housing.

 

I dare say there are a host of other compounding factors, and EU grants may be one of them, but come on....

Edited May 8, 2017 by mommysboy

[Naam]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I wouldn't bother wondering if I were you, as you have so clearly made up your mind already, and have nothing other than insults left to offer.

insults in this thread are mainly presented by resident Brexiteers. many of their ridiculous comments and insinuations are grabbed out of thin air insult their own as well as the intelligence of the readers.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Naam
edited: korreckted tchermann krammar

[nauseus]

29 minutes ago, Naam said:

Honourable Sir Nauseus, Esq.,

i can't make up my mind whether whether your comments make me or (nomen est omen) make me nauseous that i

 

Ah, indecisive! That's probably why your remarks lack explanation. 

 

Get well soon! 

[Flustered]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

So that's why the EU was celebrating when Brexit was passed. And why they're offering the UK so many concessions to leave.  Because the "EU that does not and has never wanted the UK as a member."

Got it.

The EU cannot wait to get rid of us, punish us and make an example of us so that other countries will not leave. However, in the wake of the European legal advice given to the Brussels assassination squad, there is no legal ground whatsoever for us to pay any money at all. But, being British, we will pay our FAIR share regardless of the outcome.

 

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes my answer is not to leave the single market, or perhaps push for some associate status.

 

As regards other matters, the solution is not difficult but requires a party willing to do it.

As I said, we have to wait and see what the terms of exit are. they May (pun) well pleasantly surprise the most ardent Bremoaner.

 

Just think however what would have happened under a Labour or Labour coalition government. They would have given in to every demand made without even negotiating.

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

Honourable Sir Nauseus, Esq.,

i can't make up my mind whether whether your comments make me or (nomen est omen) make me nauseous that i

The U.K sacrificed the British fishing industry in order to gain acceptance to the E.E.C. Is this the E.U' s fault? No I think the blame for that decision lays with the U.K politicians. Likewise how come that Germany and others manage to skirt the rules regarding energy. Again the blame probably lays with weak British politicians.

 Exactly the same regarding  E.U countries billing the U.K for £670 million of medical treatment to British citizens, while the UK only claims back £50 million.

 

 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

 

 Exactly the same regarding  E.U countries billing the U.K for £670 million of medical treatment to British citizens, while the UK only claims back £50 million.

 

This is a very good point and I wonder why this is.

 

Are we too lazy to bill the countries concerned or are we as the LibDems would have everyone believe, an International Health Service and not a National health Service?

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

My mistake.  I assumed that the original post about "the REALLY clever part of a DVD/RW costs about 2 USD" meant something other other than the ordinary understanding of a DVD.  What precisely is the "REALLY clever part"?

Blue and red lasers dynamically controlled over the surface of the disk together with diode detectors and high performance preamps mounted locally. All done using bare silicon dice either flip chip or wire bonded with gold wires and then encapsulated. All on a flexible printed circuit....

 

It doesn't matter. The point is that we demand and enjoy the most unbelievable technology but pay peanuts for it! 

 

If we focussed more more on quality and less on price we might be in a better position.

 

Insane to sell companies such as ARM!

 

Where is the UK semiconductor and digital electronics base???

Edited May 8, 2017 by Grouse

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Blue and red lasers dynamically controlled over the surface of the disk together with diode detectors and high performance preamps mounted locally. All done using bare silicon dice either flip chip or wire bonded with gold wires and then encapsulated. All on a flexible printed circuit....

 

It doesn't matter. The point is that we demand and enjoy the most unbelievable technology but pay peanuts for it! 

 

If we focussed more more on quality and less on price we might be in a better position.

 

Insane to sell companies such as ARM!

 

Where is the UK semiconductor and digital electronics base???

With our disruptive unions, how can you ever expect us to compete with Asia?

 

The demand for higher and higher wages coupled with lower working hours and increased benefits automatically makes it cheaper to manufacture overseas.

 

Your much vaunted EU does us no favours either. Until such time that the EU standardise wages, benefits and taxes across the board, companies will always relocate to Poland, Romania or wherever they can build at a cheaper cost. Another reason why the EU will eventually be a failure.

 

Now if you want to bring in protectionism?

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

With our disruptive unions, how can you ever expect us to compete with Asia?

 

The demand for higher and higher wages coupled with lower working hours and increased benefits automatically makes it cheaper to manufacture overseas.

 

Your much vaunted EU does us no favours either. Until such time that the EU standardise wages, benefits and taxes across the board, companies will always relocate to Poland, Romania or wherever they can build at a cheaper cost. Another reason why the EU will eventually be a failure.

 

Now if you want to bring in protectionism?

The plant was none union

 

The issue was all to do with supply chain management. Delivery times, customs, shipping costs.

 

American owned.

 

Protectionism makes things worse

 

Labour cost per unit was trivial (millions of pcs you see). Different world now....

Edited May 8, 2017 by Grouse

[mommysboy]

37 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The plant was none union

 

The issue was all to do with supply chain management. Delivery times, customs, shipping costs.

 

American owned.

 

Protectionism makes things worse

 

Labour cost per unit was trivial (millions of pcs you see). Different world now....

 

You provide a terrific insight in to the modern world of mass production.

 

And in fact increasingly nobody makes any money, to the extent that China really should be offered some form of nobel prize for altruism. That stuff you and I buy on Obay, at Poundland, or wherever is coming out very often at less than factory price and is being sold at no mark up by Chinese sellers, who instead rely on kick backs from their government.  At the UK end, nobody is making a profit, just churning turnover and hoping to survive.

 

With the rise in algorithms and robotics, many functions will be subject to mass production techniques, throughout most industry and even service sectors.  Already it is being introduced to specialized areas such as the legal profession, and teaching.  You have probably even read about the development of sex robots.

 

Mass employment as we know it now will be a thing of the past.  Governments will primarily be concerned with distributing wealth to people, effectively paying them to live.  Its a precarious position, because most of us will in fact be economically useless.   How a government copes with that is the stuff of nightmares or dreams.

 

 

 

 

[pitrevie]

10 hours ago, nontabury said:

The U.K sacrificed the British fishing industry in order to gain acceptance to the E.E.C. Is this the E.U' s fault? No I think the blame for that decision lays with the U.K politicians. Likewise how come that Germany and others manage to skirt the rules regarding energy. Again the blame probably lays with weak British politicians.

 Exactly the same regarding  E.U countries billing the U.K for £670 million of medical treatment to British citizens, while the UK only claims back £50 million.

 

 

This is from a recent investigation into health tourism published in 2015

Gross costs to the NHS for the wider group (excluding the 'deliberate' health tourists) have been estimated by the same report as:
£260 million per year for visitors and non-permanent residents from the European Economic Area (EEA) to England
£1,400 million per year for visitors and temporary migrants from outside the EEA to England, and irregular migrants
£95 million per year for English expats living abroad.

 

Tell me how does withdrawing from the EU get anywhere near recovering the far greater sum from those health visitors that use the NHS from outside the EEA,

Its very much like the immigration figure far more people were coming from outside the EU to the UK  over which we have total control.

 

As for fishing perhaps you could take that up with Farage who is on the Fisheries committee in the EU Parliament. What a pity he hasn't bothered to earn his money as an MEP and attend the fisheries committee.

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

This is from a recent investigation into health tourism published in 2015

Gross costs to the NHS for the wider group (excluding the 'deliberate' health tourists) have been estimated by the same report as:
£260 million per year for visitors and non-permanent residents from the European Economic Area (EEA) to England
£1,400 million per year for visitors and temporary migrants from outside the EEA to England, and irregular migrants
£95 million per year for English expats living abroad.

 

Tell me how does withdrawing from the EU get anywhere near recovering the far greater sum from those health visitors that use the NHS from outside the EEA,

Its very much like the immigration figure far more people were coming from outside the EU to the UK  over which we have total control.

 

As for fishing perhaps you could take that up with Farage who is on the Fisheries committee in the EU Parliament. What a pity he hasn't bothered to earn his money as an MEP and attend the fisheries committee.

 

I never mentioned people from outside the EU using the N.H.S. As I thought this was a thread related to the so- called E.U.

 

I repeat, the U.K. payes other E.U. countries £670,000,000 for medical treatment to U.K. citizens. While the E.U. countries only pay £50,000,000 to the U.K. for treatment to their citizens by the N.H.S. For this I do not solely blame the E.U. Countries. The blame primarily lies with the British government and the overpaid administrators in the N.H.S. Who fail to bill these countries.

 

[pitrevie]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I never mentioned people from outside the EU using the N.H.S. As I thought this was a thread related to the so- called E.U.

 

I repeat, the U.K. payes other E.U. countries £670,000,000 for medical treatment to U.K. citizens. While the E.U. countries only pay £50,000,000 to the U.K. for treatment to their citizens by the N.H.S. For this I do not solely blame the E.U. Countries. The blame primarily lies with the British government and the overpaid administrators in the N.H.S. Who fail to bill these countries.

 

Yes but as I pointed out the greater burden on the NHS is from outside the EU just like the greater burden on immigration is from outside the EU. There we are not hamstrung by EU regulations or reciprocall agreements (although there are some) but yet your focus always is on the lesser problem because its EU related.

 

[mommysboy]

Yes and you are quite right to draw comparisons with immigration: if we can't exercise control over non EU immigration-where we already have the powers to do so- then how will we suddenly control EU immigration when we get similar powers?

[sandyf]

On 5/7/2017 at 5:01 PM, Loaded said:

We will always have access to the single market. As the EU and UK (founding member and still current member) are members of the WTO. WTO rules prevent the EU from excluding UK imports. The EU will be prevented from setting punitive tariffs against UK imports because according to the schedules they trade under at the WTO, they cannot exceed their maximum stated tariff (boundary tariff) plus if they impose a boundary tariff on one country, they must impose on all countries - this isn't going to happen. It's likely that the EU will be forced to continue trading with the UK under their current tariff IE no tariff - until they submit new schedules. The UK will be free to set tariffs that best suit their trading policy.

This is not entirely true.

The UK is a member of the WTO but it has no profile. The UK currently trades under the EU profile. In order to trade in its own right the UK must establish a profile which will need to be approved by all WTO members. This is where it could get complicated as some countries may use approval as leverage for some other agenda. Spain and the Argentine should be the first to come to mind.

 

This statement is not true. " It's likely that the EU will be forced to continue trading with the UK under their current tariff IE no tariff"

 

Currently the EU does not trade with the UK under a WTO arrangement so there is no tariff , as opposed to a zero tariff. Post brexit the UK would be subject to the same tariff that would be currently applied to any other non member state under the WTO arrangement.

This is why a FTA is necessary to remove the UK from the WTO arrangement.

[sandyf]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:22 AM, nontabury said:

People have correctly pointed out that the UK is now devoid of it's manufacturing industry. Others ask where does the large British contributions go.

 

This is a great post, detailing the absurdity of remaining in the EU, we currently have the Lib Dums advocating to stay in and Labour all over the place on Brexit.

This is why we are leaving. Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
 

And the UK government stood by and watched. It takes a bit more than an EU grant to make a company upsticks and move to another country. The UK government, of both persuasions have a track record of stabbing industry in the back but never mind you can reverse the policy in 5 years time, a really successful long term plan. As the CEO of Siemans said on QT last week, industry is the engine of the UK economy and should rise above party politics, not something the politicians want to hear.

It should be borne in mind that when companies did relocate to mainland Europe the workforce had the option of going as well. It is quite possible that companies like Nissan and Toyota may also follow suit but the option for the workforce to relocate will no longer be there.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

 It is quite possible that companies like Nissan and Toyota may also follow suit but the option for the workforce to relocate will no longer be there.

And where have you read this or is it your individual opinion?

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

This is not entirely true.

The UK is a member of the WTO but it has no profile. The UK currently trades under the EU profile. In order to trade in its own right the UK must establish a profile which will need to be approved by all WTO members. This is where it could get complicated as some countries may use approval as leverage for some other agenda. Spain and the Argentine should be the first to come to mind.

 

This statement is not true. " It's likely that the EU will be forced to continue trading with the UK under their current tariff IE no tariff"

 

Currently the EU does not trade with the UK under a WTO arrangement so there is no tariff , as opposed to a zero tariff. Post brexit the UK would be subject to the same tariff that would be currently applied to any other non member state under the WTO arrangement.

This is why a FTA is necessary to remove the UK from the WTO arrangement.

It just goes to show what a dumb move Brexit is, but one would envisage that one of the world's largest importers will get WTO member approval.

[Loaded]

19 hours ago, sandyf said:

This is not entirely true.

The UK is a member of the WTO but it has no profile. The UK currently trades under the EU profile. In order to trade in its own right the UK must establish a profile which will need to be approved by all WTO members. This is where it could get complicated as some countries may use approval as leverage for some other agenda. Spain and the Argentine should be the first to come to mind.

 

This statement is not true. " It's likely that the EU will be forced to continue trading with the UK under their current tariff IE no tariff"

 

Currently the EU does not trade with the UK under a WTO arrangement so there is no tariff , as opposed to a zero tariff. Post brexit the UK would be subject to the same tariff that would be currently applied to any other non member state under the WTO arrangement.

This is why a FTA is necessary to remove the UK from the WTO arrangement.

This is not entirely true.

 

The UK already has a schedule from the time it was a co-founder of the WTO. To certify this or another schedule, you are correct, there must be universal approval from all other members of the WTO. However, to prevent nationalistic political interfering in this process, the country/WTO member must have a valid reason to object. IE it must be related to the schedule and it must be substantiated. Spain using Gibraltar and Argentina using The Falklands wouldn't wash. If it did, the WTO wouldn't be able to function.

 

Incidentally, a schedule doesn't need to be certified in order to trade under WTO rules.

[Loaded]

16 hours ago, sandyf said:

And the UK government stood by and watched. It takes a bit more than an EU grant to make a company upsticks and move to another country. The UK government, of both persuasions have a track record of stabbing industry in the back but never mind you can reverse the policy in 5 years time, a really successful long term plan. As the CEO of Siemans said on QT last week, industry is the engine of the UK economy and should rise above party politics, not something the politicians want to hear.

It should be borne in mind that when companies did relocate to mainland Europe the workforce had the option of going as well. It is quite possible that companies like Nissan and Toyota may also follow suit but the option for the workforce to relocate will no longer be there.

At last, you understand why we had to leave the EU. Our government is forced to stand by and watch as the EU dismantles our democracy, economy and country. It's a misnomer to call it the EU anyway - it's the GU or German Union. Merkel calls the shots as Macron has already found out.