May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[jpinx]

28 minutes ago, Flustered said:

TM is the legitimate PM using the same system that has been used since 1884. She needed a stronger mandate for the EU talks, but our wonderful Uni students were more interested in freebies.

 

Just because Labour did not come even close to winning (whining yes, winning no) does not make this a political fiasco.

 

 

Legitimised by a flawed system designed for a totally different political environment to what we have nowadays.   Frankly - I don't give a damn who wins as long as the system includes something of everyones wishes for their future.  Concensus politics is what's needed.  Dividing the nation every time is so wrong as to be criminal - setting man against son, etc.  I am certainly no bleeding heart, but progress is not made well if only half of the passengers get out and push and the other half are hauling on the handbrake......

[Flustered]

Consensus politics as in Italy....I think not. 

 

Just like the committee designing the horse, you end up with a camel.

 

Funny how you never hear lefties calling for consensus politics when they are in power.

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Consensus politics as in Italy....I think not. 

 

Just like the committee designing the horse, you end up with a camel.

 

Funny how you never hear lefties calling for consensus politics when they are in power.

Who called for the Lib-Lab Pact?

It's easy to drag the disasters into the discussion, but wouldn't it be more constructive to hold up a few examples which are not obvious because they work so well? 

 

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

Arguably the biggest political fiasco since forever.  The FPTP system has been shown - yet again - to be totally incompetent at sorting out a concensus government.  Even the Lib/Lab style pact would be better than what we have now -- a turncoat PM supported by a small pack of rabid dogs running an agenda that IS could embrace.

Amusing, no? To be reminded that there was not so long ago re the UK electoral voting system, roll of drums please, a referendum. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by SheungWan

[jpinx]

27 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Amusing, no? To be reminded that there was not so long ago re the UK electoral voting system, roll of drums please, a referendum. 

Indeed.  UK is not Switzerland - the electorate is insufficiently educated to decypher the way anything else works.  It's been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator that an underfunded and ill thought out education system can deal with.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

TM is the legitimate PM using the same system that has been used since 1884. She needed a stronger mandate for the EU talks, but our wonderful Uni students were more interested in freebies.

 

Just because Labour did not come even close to winning (whining yes, winning no) does not make this a political fiasco.

 

 

It wasn't just students was it?

 

Most notable was Kensington.

 

Did you honestly expect people who didn't want to leave the single market to give May a stronger mandate.  And was there ever a mandate to ruin the economy?

 

Whining: pot-kettle-black

[onthesoi]

13 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Laura's again quite right. But posters like you seem to be incabable of putting such things into perspective. Most people on this forum (myself included) thought that, even with his 'free beer for everyone' manifesto, Corbyn was about as appealing to the mass electorate as a wet fart in underpants. We were wrong. Mainly because he and his trendy purple-haired ground workers managed to motivate the perennially apathetic youth vote. Good for him. I hope that said youth vote has in general more political nous than my star university student daughter and various other young people with whom I've had the mind-numbing experience of discussing politics recently.

 

But, even with all that, and competing with a Tory party that probably produced and campaigned the worst election manifesto in modern British history, Corbyn failed to get himself into a position to form a government. Whilst I would not even attempt to claim that the Tories' election campaign was a success, Labour failed, pure and simple. That's what vogie keeps trying to explain to you. But, for some reason, you can't/don't want to understand this bald fact.

 

Not sure what you are ranting about, I only gave you a link to an article nothing more!

Edited June 14, 2017 by onthesoi

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Not sure what you are ranting about, I only gave you a link to an article nothing more!

When someone provides a link a normal person would expect feedback, if not what was the point of supplying the link in the first place?

[nauseus]

39 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It wasn't just students was it?

 

Most notable was Kensington.

 

Did you honestly expect people who didn't want to leave the single market to give May a stronger mandate.  And was there ever a mandate to ruin the economy?

 

Whining: pot-kettle-black

Election vote swing about the Tories suicidal Manny Festo - not Brexit.

[pitrevie]

25 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Not sure what you are ranting about, I only gave you a link to an article nothing more!

Seems to many including all of the Tory press the bigger failure was the failure of May to secure a thumping majority. We were/are told that the Labour opposition was was un-electable and led by someone so extreme left that he was going to get the worst result in Labour history. Yet the incumbent PM started off with a 20% lead in the opinion polls and not only managed to lose all of that but also her overall majority in Parliament. It was May who asked for the vote of confidence from the British people and she failed miserably to get it.

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Seems to many including all of the Tory press the bigger failure was the failure of May to secure a thumping majority. We were/are told that the Labour opposition was was un-electable and led by someone so extreme left that he was going to get the worst result in Labour history. Yet the incumbent PM started off with a 20% lead in the opinion polls and not only managed to lose all of that but also her overall majority in Parliament. It was May who asked for the vote of confidence from the British people and she failed miserably to get it.

For answer see my post above.

Edited June 14, 2017 by nauseus

[evadgib]

The government's system for deporting foreign criminals before they have had a chance to appeal breaches their human rights, the Supreme Court has ruled.

In a landmark case concerning two foreign national criminals, the court ruled that having to appeal from abroad denied the men an effective appeal.

Both men were convicted of drug offences and served prison sentences.

The so-called 'deport first, appeal later' policy was introduced as part of the Immigration Act 2014.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40272323

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.   One post has been removed and one poster suspended.  

[AlexRich]

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-business-must-get-off-the-fence-and-stop-brexit-a3564021.html

 

Anthony Hilton provides a pretty good explanation of why any Brexit, hard or soft is a very bad idea. My favourite part is below:

 

"And as for thwarting “the will of the people” as expressed in the referendum, consider this: by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year-olds. Given no change in the declared voting preferences of the old and the young that would give a majority for Remain.

Corbyn needs to think about that, given it is the young who are propelling him towards power".

[nauseus]

33 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-business-must-get-off-the-fence-and-stop-brexit-a3564021.html

 

Anthony Hilton provides a pretty good explanation of why any Brexit, hard or soft is a very bad idea. My favourite part is below:

 

"And as for thwarting “the will of the people” as expressed in the referendum, consider this: by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year-olds. Given no change in the declared voting preferences of the old and the young that would give a majority for Remain.

Corbyn needs to think about that, given it is the young who are propelling him towards power".

 

Economic-only argument again from Alex and The Osborne Standard, featuring a visit from the Reaper to the eldest and wisest. 

 

Any way out (in) will do eh? And your favourite part? What a morbid way to argue! Shame on Hilton and you!

 

I'm not sure why Hilton refers to Lord Lawson anyway - he supports leaving! I read it all - there are no solid arguments as usual - just hearsay and more fear mongering! The CBI is now famous for being quite regularly wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by nauseus

[beautifulthailand99]

Like Trump fan boys before them die hard Brexiteers seem to be dissapearing like melting snow in spring - "Brexit means Brexit - suck it up you remoaners  - and we're getting out early before the whole thing collapses" was their inane mantra. Glad to see them back to their bar stool pulpits blethering into the wind.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Like Trump fan boys before them die hard Brexiteers seem to be dissapearing like melting snow in spring - "Brexit means Brexit - suck it up you remoaners  - and we're getting out early before the whole thing collapses" was their inane mantra. Glad to see them back to their bar stool pulpits blethering into the wind.

What do you mean? I've been busy here all day.

 

"Them die hard Brexiteers"  - you're not even British - away with you!   

 

 

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Like Trump fan boys before them die hard Brexiteers seem to be dissapearing like melting snow in spring - "Brexit means Brexit - suck it up you remoaners  - and we're getting out early before the whole thing collapses" was their inane mantra. Glad to see them back to their bar stool pulpits blethering into the wind.

When Cameron failed and ran away, I was quick to say that the time for immediate and hard brexit was in hand, but not one of the politicians dared take it on.  The moral fibre of UK's politicians trying to manipulate an outdated and inappropriate FPTP political system was exposed for all to see and they waded in knee deep to grasp the spoils with excessive claims on the costs and repercussions.  Now we have the leaders of the two countries who will be left with the EU-dogpile's bills saying that they were not really serious and UK can stay if they want.  Really????  Are people so easily hoodwinked?  How many U-turns does it take to make their head spin???

[beautifulthailand99]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

What do you mean? I've been busy here all day.

 

"Them die hard Brexiteers"  - you're not even British - away with you!   

 

 

I am proudly British and sitting here still on EU-British soil salivating at the new doors that might open now we have left the no deal is better than a bad deal nonsense.

 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Like Trump fan boys before them die hard Brexiteers seem to be dissapearing like melting snow in spring - "Brexit means Brexit - suck it up you remoaners  - and we're getting out early before the whole thing collapses" was their inane mantra. Glad to see them back to their bar stool pulpits blethering into the wind.

Have you facts to sustain your remark?

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-business-must-get-off-the-fence-and-stop-brexit-a3564021.html

 

Anthony Hilton provides a pretty good explanation of why any Brexit, hard or soft is a very bad idea. My favourite part is below:

 

"And as for thwarting “the will of the people” as expressed in the referendum, consider this: by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year-olds. Given no change in the declared voting preferences of the old and the young that would give a majority for Remain.

Corbyn needs to think about that, given it is the young who are propelling him towards power".

Thanks for the link to this article, which really helped me understand the complexity of Brexit.  As I now understand it, there is no soft Brexit, which throws up a number of disturbing questions; to say the least..

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I am proudly British and sitting here still on EU-British soil salivating at the new doors that might open now we have left the no deal is better than a bad deal nonsense.

 

 

Proudly British sitting on EU-British soil - seems a bit of a clash to me. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Proudly British sitting on EU-British soil - seems a bit of a clash to me. 

He's probably in the French Embassy in London?

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Thanks for the link to this article, which really helped me understand the complexity of Brexit.  As I now understand it, there is no soft Brexit, which throws up a number of disturbing questions; to say the least..

This explains the complexity of Brexit? Right! The Osborne Standard strikes again! 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Economic-only argument again from Alex and The Osborne Standard, featuring a visit from the Reaper to the eldest and wisest. 

 

Any way out (in) will do eh? And your favourite part? What a morbid way to argue! Shame on Hilton and you!

 

I'm not sure why Hilton refers to Lord Lawson anyway - he supports leaving! I read it all - there are no solid arguments as usual - just hearsay and more fear mongering! The CBI is now famous for being quite regularly wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In denial ... again. The Brexit loving Lord Lawson is telling people that the economy will take a dive post Brexit and people will feel that they have been duped ... and he supports Brexit! As I have said before, people voted to get rid of immigrants thinking it would not affect them ... for them, there was no economic argument. That's going to come back and bite them. 

 

But the point Lawson made was how important it was for the Tories to achieve a landslide majority, which we all know now they did not get. Now the point about the young replacing the old is an important one ... because if negotiations are extended because of time constraints, which I think is likely, we may indeed have a population that will demand a say on the deal ... as Macron has confirmed, the door is still open. 

 

If this all seems impossible, so was a Corbyn government a few weeks ago ... but not anymore.  

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

This explains the complexity of Brexit? Right! The Osborne Standard strikes again! 

Tedious.

 

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

In denial ... again. The Brexit loving Lord Lawson is telling people that the economy will take a dive post Brexit and people will feel that they have been duped ... and he supports Brexit! As I have said before, people voted to get rid of immigrants thinking it would not affect them ... for them, there was no economic argument. That's going to come back and bite them. 

 

But the point Lawson made was how important it was for the Tories to achieve a landslide majority, which we all know now they did not get. Now the point about the young replacing the old is an important one ... because if negotiations are extended because of time constraints, which I think is likely, we may indeed have a population that will demand a say on the deal ... as Macron has confirmed, the door is still open. 

 

If this all seems impossible, so was a Corbyn government a few weeks ago ... but not anymore.  

 

 

As was pointed out- a week is a long time in politics, so in 2 years an awful lot can happen.  If public opinion shifts then that would be the deciding issue on Brexit.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

In denial ... again. The Brexit loving Lord Lawson is telling people that the economy will take a dive post Brexit and people will feel that they have been duped ... and he supports Brexit! As I have said before, people voted to get rid of immigrants thinking it would not affect them ... for them, there was no economic argument. That's going to come back and bite them. 

 

But the point Lawson made was how important it was for the Tories to achieve a landslide majority, which we all know now they did not get. Now the point about the young replacing the old is an important one ... because if negotiations are extended because of time constraints, which I think is likely, we may indeed have a population that will demand a say on the deal ... as Macron has confirmed, the door is still open. 

 

If this all seems impossible, so was a Corbyn government a few weeks ago ... but not anymore.  

 

 

Denial? As I have said! Corbyn? Dreamer!

[AlexRich]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Denial? As I have said! Corbyn? Dreamer!

 

Im no fan, I suspect not wanting Corbyn in power is the only thing we'd agree on. But I'm not in denial about that as a possibility. Just watched a recent Panorama programme about the election. Theresa May's new right hand man was on and confirmed that Corbyn did especially well in areas of the country that were firmly Remainers. In two years time with the old dying and the young being eligible to vote that Remain vote will get stronger. Furthermore UGov have just published numbers suggesting the youth vote was still relatively low, so a little push in that direction could swing it for Corbyn. There won't be a hard Brexit. Indeed, there might not be one at all. 

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

Not sure what you are ranting about, I only gave you a link to an article nothing more!

 

Er , no, actually. You didn't just post a link. You asked me, personally to explain the article in the link to vogie.

 

Is there a mandatory study course in intellectual dishonesty for ThaiVisa remainers?

[onthesoi]

The Brexiteers are clearly rattled...