May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

For the insulting pedant: the pound dropped but it didn't change exports much.

 

Sorry, in my recent first novel I'm sure my writing was more cogent.  How many have you written by the way?

 

Any chance of answering any of the simple questions I posed earlier ?  Hopeful really!  He never does.

 

Be honest: the book's an autobiography by Dave Spart.

[Orac]

Why on earth would the skilled that have been offered well paid jobs before leaving their own countries,  decide to leave??
 
We've done the veg/fruit pickers discussion to death in other threads.....  In short, it used to be done by poor brit families that needed to supplement their income - until farmers found a cheaper source of labour.....

Would depend what their long term plans are. Unless they are planning to live permanently in the UK and retire there so the effect is not so great they will have seen a significant drop in their salaries due to the fall in sterling.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The Scottish parliament and the Lords will stymy Brexit legislation"

 

Suprise, suprise !

The Scottish parliament will, I presume, follow the clearly expressed will of the Scottish people? Is that not what we want from our elected representatives? 

 

[dick dasterdly]

52 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Few care about those EU workers offered well paid jobs in (shortage sectors) within the uk - other than getting annoyed as to why these skill shortages have been allowed to happen.

 

Those without skills that have only driven down wages for the lowest paid  - which has consequently moved up 'the chain' as middle income workers find their salaries have stagnated.

 

40 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So why are the growers not being swamped with English applicants?

 

Don't we have a minimum wage? Works out about 20k per annum? Not much but worth a youth getting out of bed for?

 

I'm missing something here - by "growers", are you referring to farmers finding those prepared to 'pick'  their fruit/veg?

 

[Khun Han]

26 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Here is the EU position on citizens

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-citizens-rights_en

 

I have not seen what the UK proposed, but have heard what could only be described as rumours , so will not post here.

If as you say T.May wanted to settle the issue earlier, the negotations on this issue will be short . Of course as part of the referendum result it was the will of the people to grant EU citizens in the UK the same rights as they currently possess

 

If as you say

 

Project Fear and it's useful idiot remainers scale new heights of dishonesty/re-writing history. In the world of honest people, the UK government has tried at least twice to get an early resolution to residency status. Only to be brusquely rebuffed by the EU each time. The EU wanted to tie the issue in with their extortion plan.

[rockingrobin]

33 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Here is the EU position on citizens

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-citizens-rights_en

 

I have not seen what the UK proposed, but have heard what could only be described as rumours , so will not post here.

If as you say T.May wanted to settle the issue earlier, the negotations on this issue will be short . Of course as part of the referendum result it was the will of the people to grant EU citizens in the UK the same rights as they currently possess

 

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In short - the EU position boils down to the free movement policy?

No it does not

It comes down to acquired rights

[sandyf]

59 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Solution is to wreck your economy ... have skill shortages that you are unable to fill (as the skilled leave first) and put the fruit and veg people out of business (as there are plenty of UK jobs so no UK person will take them) so that we can buy all out fruit and veg from Europe. That's a plan.

Quite. Mother nature must be a brexiteer, she shut down all the fruit farms in Moray & Nairn so no need for fruit pickers, foreign or otherwise.

[Flustered]

39 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Here is the EU position on citizens

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-citizens-rights_en

 

I have not seen what the UK proposed, but have heard what could only be described as rumours , so will not post here.

If as you say T.May wanted to settle the issue earlier, the negotations on this issue will be short . Of course as part of the referendum result it was the will of the people to grant EU citizens in the UK the same rights as they currently possess

So exactly what TM wanted to agree before the talks even started but Frau Merkel refused point blank to even discuss.

 

this could have been put to bed nearly a year ago if the EU were not so bloody minded and pedantic.

[dick dasterdly]

30 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why on earth would the skilled that have been offered well paid jobs before leaving their own countries,  decide to leave??

 

We've done the veg/fruit pickers discussion to death in other threads.....  In short, it used to be done by poor brit families that needed to supplement their income - until farmers found a cheaper source of labour.....

 

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Would depend what their long term plans are. Unless they are planning to live permanently in the UK and retire there so the effect is not so great they will have seen a significant drop in their salaries due to the fall in sterling.

 

I'm assuming that they didn't take an offered well paid position in the uk to send money to a poor family abroad.....

[rockingrobin]

Just now, Flustered said:

So exactly what TM wanted to agree before the talks even started but Frau Merkel refused point blank to even discuss.

 

this could have been put to bed nearly a year ago if the EU were not so bloody minded and pedantic.

If you can point me in the direction of the details T.May actually wanted , I may be able to comment. The only content I can find is that it was intended to treat EU citizens as third country.

[Laughing Gravy]

It has been mentioned many times but the idea about many  people who voted for brexit was about 'controlled immigration' allowing those skills that we needed in and not just from the EU. Many people forget that the open door immigration allowing many eastern Europeans in the UK are often taken in with mafia style gangs, their wages taken off them or vastly reduced and basically exploited. Controlled immigration would vastly reduce this. The idea is for the benefit of the migrants as,well as for the UK people. The narrative given out here and in the media is we need low paid, low skilled workers to service with pickers, waiting staff , careers etc is sad really IMHO. Having better paid , British people doing these jobs first would be better. After all we have 1.6 million on unemployment benefits.

 

As for the reliance on the NHS and foreign workers I think, is a national disgrace. The standard I have heard from friends, in the NHS is very dubious. Many of the nurses and doctors have poor English skills and they make mistakes often with medicine and important decisions with some of them been overlooked on important issues, from their Britishn counterparts. Again this is from friends who work in the NHS, so please don't say source. Their work ethic isn't in question. Their professional standard is. Other countries like the Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines have better English speaking nurses and doctors as an example.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11297761/Number-of-foreign-nurses-surges.html

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/594368/NHS-hospital-britons-abroad-recruits-nurses

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-14921565

 

[rockingrobin]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I'm missing something here - by "growers", are you referring to farmers finding those prepared to 'pick'  their fruit/veg?

 

Agriculture seasonal workers have a rich history in the UK, with the quota system abolished in 2013

 

http://theconversation.com/who-picked-british-fruit-and-veg-before-migrant-workers-63279

[Orac]

I'm assuming that they didn't take an offered well paid position in the uk to send money to a poor family abroad.....

I am not assuming that either but, if they are saving towards a pension pot for retirement in another EU country chances are they are measuring that in Euros and not sterling.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Must add that I'm shocked at BBC World's obvious bias !

 

The EU is pressing to secure the future of those EU people already in other EU countries?!  No mention that May tried to agree this previously, but was rebuffed by the EU?

 

The Queen is wearing a hat showing her support for the EU??

 

etc. etc......

And the bbc is still going on about the horror of brit farmers having to lose a large number of 'slave labour' type imported cheap staff !

[Flustered]

8 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

If you can point me in the direction of the details T.May actually wanted , I may be able to comment. The only content I can find is that it was intended to treat EU citizens as third country.

Just one of hundreds of reports.The details were live on TV news and reports showing TM stating this.

 

TM is on record on the TV stating that she wanted to offer EU citizens already in the UK at the announcement of Brexit full rights but it had to be hand in glove with UK citizens rights.

 

This was so widely reported and discussed here on TVF as well as more main stream forums and news that I am surprised you do not know about it.

 

 

Being a Guardian reader you should have read this

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum

Edited June 22, 2017 by Flustered

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 No mention that May tried to agree this previously, but was rebuffed by the EU?

 

As in other cases, TM thinks she can do what she wants when she wants. As far as she is concerned, due process is an alien concept.

She was not 'rebuffed' by the EU just reminded that there was no issue to discuss until after she had invoked Article 50. If TM had any real concern over EU citizens she would have invoked Article 50 a long time ago, of course she couldn't do that because she tried to bypass the due process with parliament.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It has been mentioned many times but the idea about many  people who voted for brexit was about 'controlled immigration' allowing those skills that we needed in and not just from the EU. Many people forget that the open door immigration allowing many eastern Europeans in the UK are often taken in with mafia style gangs, their wages taken off them or vastly reduced and basically exploited. Controlled immigration would vastly reduce this. The idea is for the benefit of the migrants as,well as for the UK people. The narrative given out here and in the media is we need low paid, low skilled workers to service with pickers, waiting staff , careers etc is sad really IMHO. Having better paid , British people doing these jobs first would be better. After all we have 1.6 million on unemployment benefits.

 

As for the reliance on the NHS and foreign workers I think, is a national disgrace. The standard I have heard from friends, in the NHS is very dubious. Many of the nurses and doctors have poor English skills and they make mistakes often with medicine and important decisions with some of them been overlooked on important issues, from their Britishn counterparts. Again this is from friends who work in the NHS, so please don't say source. Their work ethic isn't in question. Their professional standard is. Other countries like the Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines have better English speaking nurses and doctors as an example.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11297761/Number-of-foreign-nurses-surges.html

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/594368/NHS-hospital-britons-abroad-recruits-nurses

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-14921565

 

Agree entirely, but I'd add that the multitude of Filipino nurses become just as uncaring as young, brit born career nurses .

[dick dasterdly]

22 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Agriculture seasonal workers have a rich history in the UK, with the quota system abolished in 2013

 

http://theconversation.com/who-picked-british-fruit-and-veg-before-migrant-workers-63279

Being wary of opening unknown websites - I can only refer back to actual experience.

 

Fruit and veg 'picking' used to be carried out by wives (and children during school holidays/weekends) of poor families.

 

My parents went hop-picking as a holiday !

Edited June 22, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[rockingrobin]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Being wary of opening unknown websites - I can only refer back to actual experience.

 

Fruit and veg 'picking' used to be carried out by wives (and children during school holidays/weekends) of poor families.

 

My parents went hop-picking as a holiday !

for the farmer it is a industry not a hobby

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

Your first paragraph is spot on. Could it be that British management and business owners have not been up to the mark. Maybe a good time to get out of this undemocratic so called Union. A completely fresh start,perhaps bumpy at the start, but we would have the satisfaction of knowing, we would be leaving future generations with a successful and independent country. The alternative to being shackled to the future chaos of the federation of Europe.

"A completely fresh start,perhaps bumpy at the start"

 

Now that is what I call an understatement.

[Khun Han]

32 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And the bbc is still going on about the horror of brit farmers having to lose a large number of 'slave labour' type imported cheap staff !

 

The beeb has always been the leading edge, and main mouthpiece of Project Fear. Even FC's such as Jon Head push the remain argument hard on twitter.

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

Did't Cameron suggest much needed reforms. Which the Bureacratic dictators in Brussels rejected, thus leading to Brexit.

If the Brexiters had been as vociferous in simply attacking the powers as they have been in flouting the true will of their own people, then I'm sure that would have earned them some respect throughout many states in the EU.  It probably would have endeared them to the electorate too.

[Khun Han]

26 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

39 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It has been mentioned many times but the idea about many  people who voted for brexit was about 'controlled immigration' allowing those skills that we needed in and not just from the EU. Many people forget that the open door immigration allowing many eastern Europeans in the UK are often taken in with mafia style gangs, their wages taken off them or vastly reduced and basically exploited. Controlled immigration would vastly reduce this. The idea is for the benefit of the migrants as,well as for the UK people. The narrative given out here and in the media is we need low paid, low skilled workers to service with pickers, waiting staff , careers etc is sad really IMHO. Having better paid , British people doing these jobs first would be better. After all we have 1.6 million on unemployment benefits.

 

As for the reliance on the NHS and foreign workers I think, is a national disgrace. The standard I have heard from friends, in the NHS is very dubious. Many of the nurses and doctors have poor English skills and they make mistakes often with medicine and important decisions with some of them been overlooked on important issues, from their Britishn counterparts. Again this is from friends who work in the NHS, so please don't say source. Their work ethic isn't in question. Their professional standard is. Other countries like the Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines have better English speaking nurses and doctors as an example.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11297761/Number-of-foreign-nurses-surges.html

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/594368/NHS-hospital-britons-abroad-recruits-nurses

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-14921565

 

Agree entirely, but I'd add that the multitude of Filipino nurses become just as uncaring as young, brit born career nurses 

 

It's another discussion, but standards in the NHS have dropped so low it's astonishing. For anyone who is anyone in the NHS nowadays it's more about feathering nests than anything else: doctors getting 'sponsorships' from big pharma, admin making hay with expense accounts, etc. What a mess.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, rockingrobin said:

for the farmer it is a industry not a hobby

I agree.  Unfortunately the small farmer in the uk has pretty much disappeared and its now a wealthy industry......

 

France have managed to protect their small farmers - whereas brit politicians preferred to support big farm industry?

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

And this how she gets to bite back!

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15362606.New_blow_for_Theresa_May_over_fears_Holyrood_will_block_Brexit/

And for me... well. I think good on the Scots.  That referendum was just plain undemocratic in my view: it effectively disenfranchised Scotland and N.Ireland. 

[Flustered]

When you read the posts of the REMAINERS , it is hard to understand why they take a stance against the UK rather than supporting it.

 

If I felt strongly enough about an issue such as remaining in the EU, I would leave the UK and settle in Europe.

 

Oh, hold on a minute, I do which is why my aim is to settle full time in Thailand.

 

I just want to get away from all of the open door policies and socialist projects which will be the main theme of Jeremy Corbyn and comrades if they ever get into power which looks likely now he has worked out that by promising free cake to day, free cake tomorrow and free cake everyday all paid for by borrowing and increased taxes gets votes from  the plebs.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The beeb has always been the leading edge, and main mouthpiece of Project Fear. Even FC's such as Jon Head push the remain argument hard on twitter.

Its just depressing that the beeb is so obvious in its bias .

 

I've mostly stood up for the bbc, but finally understand just how biased they can be.....

[mommysboy]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Being wary of opening unknown websites - I can only refer back to actual experience.

 

Fruit and veg 'picking' used to be carried out by wives (and children during school holidays/weekends) of poor families.

 

My parents went hop-picking as a holiday !

Good on them.  I did a bit of menial work and it didn't do me any harm whatsoever.  I really can't see why jobs like this should really come under labour law, except for health and safety.  Flexibility is needed in everything.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Good on them.  I did a bit of menial work and it didn't do me any harm whatsoever.  I really can't see why jobs like this should really come under labour law, except for health and safety.  Flexibility is needed in everything.

I don't think selling copies of The Big Issue counts as menial work.......

Edited June 22, 2017 by Flustered

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I don't think selling copies of The Big Issue counts as menial work.......

As a student, and later when unemployed, I stacked shelves, did some manual labour on building sites, was a brushhand, worked at cafes and ice-cream booths along the sea front, and even remember shovelling dog mess off a lawn during a house clearance. I did a lot more besides that I wouldn't like to go in to.

 

Some money was better than no money.