3 hours ago, aright said:

In a nutshell. Why do so many remainers try to justify their vote by preaching they hope Brexit is a complete disaster.

Or Brexiteers who jeer the destruction of the EU on the basis that we are getting out of a sinking ship. Maybe they haven't heard of the profound agony of two world wars , or more likely just don't care.  They march into the cannons of war - tired moth-eaten  lions led by donkeys.

Just now, goldenbrwn1 said:

And of course Europe was pristine 50 years ago. Let's have it right soalbundy your a German now. And not just any old German ..you have a dislike or resentment for Britain and going by some of your past posts I would even say a hatred of sorts.  No matter what we say in favour of Britain or brexit you are just gunna sh## on it.   

dislike would be correct although I must admit to having been away a long time, the only impressions I get of the UK now are from newspapers and they don't often paint a pretty picture. I do meet British expats now and again but they don't seem to have a good word to say about merry old England either.

 

50 years ago countries like Austria, Switzerland (where i also worked) and Germany were very clean delightful places to be as were Sweden and Finland, I hitch hiked as a 20 year old from Helsinki to Lapland in winter once,the only thing I found on the ground was a fur hat that I gratefully used.

There is a youtube film about British troops in Germany stationed there after the war, they all spoke about how amazed they were at the cleanliness and how well dressed the people were,compared, as one soldier put it, to the filth he was used to in North England.

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

dislike would be correct although I must admit to having been away a long time, the only impressions I get of the UK now are from newspapers and they don't often paint a pretty picture. I do meet British expats now and again but they don't seem to have a good word to say about merry old England either.

 

50 years ago countries like Austria, Switzerland (where i also worked) and Germany were very clean delightful places to be as were Sweden and Finland, I hitch hiked as a 20 year old from Helsinki to Lapland in winter once,the only thing I found on the ground was a fur hat that I gratefully used.

There is a youtube film about British troops in Germany stationed there after the war, they all spoke about how amazed they were at the cleanliness and how well dressed the people were,compared, as one soldier put it, to the filth he was used to in North England.

I agree , my father was stationed in Germany and I remember as a kid on my few visits there. I was quite surprised how unbombed it looked (my only images of Germany then were from war films) .But that was because Germany did very well after the war. Apart from the ever lasting guilt trip , economically wise like Japan they moved forward with the help of the allies to improve their countries.  The UK tbf got stuffed by the US and it's own desires to keep the empire going . The people of Britain suffered even in victory . 

11 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

I agree , my father was stationed in Germany and I remember as a kid on my few visits there. But that was because Germany did very well after the war. Apart from the ever lasting guilt trip , economically wise like Japan they moved forward with the help of the allies to improve their countries.  The UK tbf got stuffed by the US and it's own desires to keep the empire going . The people of Britain suffered even in victory . 

The UK got more Marshall aid than Germany

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

 

This is what gets me about democracy: so many opinions, so little knowledge.

 

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Not really, a lot were needed, I can remember the times how care free the UK was with the environment, London smog, swimming in the sea at Southend among turds, the amount of rubbish just thrown on to the streets ( you complain about Thailand but 50 years ago the UK was just as bad) tipping motor oil down the drains after an oil change and so on, the EU changed a lot of things for the better although the UK government is still fighting valiantly to keep London the most polluted city in Europe,they would rather pay the fines, be careful what you wish for 

So all of the continental countries were pristine 50 years ago? Certainly not as I remember France, Spain and Italy?!

 

And do you really think that the UK would have had no environmental progress in that time?

 

And please spare me the Jack Reacher quotes.  

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The UK got more Marshall aid than Germany

Yeah but we won.

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The UK got more Marshall aid than Germany

"The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total), followed by France (18%) and West Germany (11%)." *

 

Ref ---- Wiki 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The UK got more Marshall aid than Germany

Yes we did. But Germany didn't have a massive fleet , Air Force and other armed services and an ailing empire to service. Plus the massive war debt we had to pay and most of all because of the labour government in 1945 who wasted the lot and didn't invest in new infrastructure and manufacturing.  Like Germany did. I don't think we finished paying the war debt until the late 80s? 

 

And as as someone else has posted...we kinda of deserved a bit more than the rest of Europe tbf. We as part of the allies were victorious.

25 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Or Brexiteers who jeer the destruction of the EU on the basis that we are getting out of a sinking ship. Maybe they haven't heard of the profound agony of two world wars , or more likely just don't care.  They march into the cannons of war - tired moth-eaten  lions led by donkeys.

Care about the sacrifices made  in both wars is the very reason we need to respect what our forefathers were all about! 

3 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

I agree , my father was stationed in Germany and I remember as a kid on my few visits there. But that was because Germany did very well after the war. Apart from the ever lasting guilt trip , economically wise like Japan they moved forward with the help of the allies to improve their countries.  The UK tbf got stuffed by the US and it's own desires to keep the empire going . The people of Britain suffered even in victory . 

but things weren't as bad as you paint - it's the Brexiteers and their own inadequacies that talk Britain down.. Remember the Opening Ceremony at the Olympics - yes we are that good in a connected , civilised world.

5 minutes ago, perthperson said:

"The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total), followed by France (18%) and West Germany (11%)." *

 

Ref ---- Wiki 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

So there Germans did rather well then!

 

 

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Care about the sacrifices made  in both wars is the very reason we need to respect what our forefathers were all about! 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

 

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

but things weren't as bad as you paint - it's the Brexiteers and their own inadequacies that talk Britain down.. Remember the Opening Ceremony at the Olympics - yes we are that good in a connected , civilised world.

That's just tripe. If the Europhiles were as proud of their country they would be Euroskeptics! 

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The UK got more Marshall aid than Germany

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

 

This is what gets me about democracy: so many opinions, so little knowledge.

 

Yes but Germanys loan was cancelled in 1953, Britain continued to pay its debts till the final payment in 2006.

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

That's just tripe. If the Europhiles were as proud of their country they would be Euroskeptics! 

We are very proud of our country , love it and fear for it's future. Since when has boneheaded nationalism ever gone anywhere good ?

5 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

We are very proud of our country , love it and fear for it's future. Since when has boneheaded nationalism ever gone anywhere good ?

Since about 1000 years ago, bonehead.

11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

 

Are you then saying that you want a repetition of the Soviet Union in Europe?

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Are you then saying that you want a repetition of the Soviet Union in Europe?

The last thing you should call Churchill is a commie !! I'll calm down now we have more in common than divides us let's remember that moving forward.

2 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

I agree , my father was stationed in Germany and I remember as a kid on my few visits there. But that was because Germany did very well after the war. Apart from the ever lasting guilt trip , economically wise like Japan they moved forward with the help of the allies to improve their countries.  The UK tbf got stuffed by the US and it's own desires to keep the empire going . The people of Britain suffered even in victory . 

Yes after the war Germany started with a clean sheet and new machines and the union system was started up by the British which Germany then improved on with the montanbestimmungsgesetz in 1951 but that doesn't detract from the enormous energy and innovation that went into the rebuilding of Germany.

 

I don't know if this is general knowledge or not but the British saved the VW beetle by continuing its production before handing it back over,as opposed to the Americans who stole everything at BMW that wasn't welded to the floor, the workers took to dismantling machines secretly and taking the parts home to rebuild them later when the Americans had gone. The first products that BMW made were cooking pots made from steel and aluminium,unfortunately they made them so accurately as they were used to when making engines that when the pots were heated it was impossible to remove the lids as they were made of a different material to the pots which expanded at different rates. 

What isn't generally known is that Italy which also suffered huge damage received little to no help in rebuilding so their recovery is also remarkable.

 

Britain became complacent and fell behind, I worked on a jig boring machine at the Royal small arms factory doing very accurate work to 0.001'' tolerances This machine had been made in America in 1911 and had been brought up from the seabed after the ship bringing it to the UK had been sunk and renovated, 5 years later I was in Germany working with brand new machines a few years later still we had the first digitally controlled machines, the jig borer at the RSAF was still being used. I studied in Germany and moved to the design office,they didn't care where you came from,can you do the job,that was enough, In Germany I found myself being treated like a responsible adult for the first time.

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The last thing you should call Churchill is a commie !! I'll calm down now we have more in common than divides us let's remember that moving forward.

I didn't - your words only. Nice after statement. 

31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So all of the continental countries were pristine 50 years ago? Certainly not as I remember France, Spain and Italy?!

 

And do you really think that the UK would have had no environmental progress in that time?

 

And please spare me the Jack Reacher quotes.  

Jack Reacher? I was standing behind the door when he came up obviously

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

Jack Reacher? I was standing behind the door when he came up obviously

He'd know you you were there! Be careful what you wish for.

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

What if I a butcher have a go at doing brain surgery then - I'm used to cutting up animals and handy with a knife what could possibly go wrong ?

 

Less of a scenario and becoming more of a given. Just because you beleive something to be true doesn't make it true. The normal meek minded head of the NAO describes the customs issues on Brexit as a potential horror show. Mandarin's language to ministers just doesn't get stronger than that. Euratom , nurse recruitment down 97% ,  a million able bodied workers getting ready to leave , pound rinsed and prices rising, Departments starting to try to negotiate piecemeal important regulatory issues independently of the Brexit dept , banks looking to leave , European Medicines Agency already moving out , European capitals having 'beauty contests' to lure away some of our 'crown jewels' , inward investment into the car industry down 70% , expats in Eu abroad uncertain future / immigration status / healthcare. Departments needing the best part of 30,000 staff to do this properly , the Good Friday Agreement and the NI border , Gibratar , a Great Repeal bill in jeopardy cos I strong and stable PM turned out to be nothing of the sort - folowed by a Corbyn resurgence. But hey we will have control back and masters of our own destiny and have no more bent banana nonsense oh and the lovely blue passports so it's not all bad.

 

The biggest act of self-inflicted harm on the UK since Suez . I don't blane the buyers of the lies though it those that sold them who we should  reserve our anger and contempt Farage / Cameron / Johnston they are the real villians in all of this.

You forgot the Remoaners prediction that house prices will go down by 40%.

Then of course the re appearance of the Black Plague, and any other scare stories you care to make up.

1 hour ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Yes we did. But Germany didn't have a massive fleet , Air Force and other armed services and an ailing empire to service. Plus the massive war debt we had to pay and most of all because of the labour government in 1945 who wasted the lot and didn't invest in new infrastructure and manufacturing.  Like Germany did. I don't think we finished paying the war debt until the late 80s? 

 

And as as someone else has posted...we kinda of deserved a bit more than the rest of Europe tbf. We as part of the allies were victorious.

late 80s?

 

much much later than that, it was G Brown that paid off the last bit

 

 

9 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You forgot the Remoaners prediction that house prices will go down by 40%.

Then of course the re appearance of the Black Plague, and any other scare stories you care to make up.

Last time I looked the Daily Heil was on your 'side' ....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657812/Britain-brink-housing-price-collapse.html

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

My butcher was called Mister Jones!

Corporal?  Who do you think you are kidding?

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

late 80s?

 

much much later than that, it was G Brown that paid off the last bit

 

 

Well we were truly shafted then.

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

He'd know you you were there! Be careful what you wish for.

Never Go Back.

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

That's just tripe. If the Europhiles were as proud of their country they would be Euroskeptics! 

More complex than that.

 

I am Europhile AND Euroskeptic, Anglophile AND Angloskeptic!

4 hours ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Well we were truly shafted then.

By whom?