May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/bilderberg-group-meeting-what-is-it-and-who-is-attending-global-elites-a7069561.html

That's fine but I'm still looking to Han to explain what he means, rich, powerful, successful, all those things etc?

Edited December 21, 2017 by simoh1490

[baansgr]

6 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Er, um.....that poll is dated October 21, it's now 22 December, more recent polls have now shown the exact opposite is true!!! A nice try but ultimately a fail.

At the same time leftist polls were showing the opposite, so polls cant really substantiate an argument which is why a 2nd referendum isnt required

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, baansgr said:

At the same time leftist polls were showing the opposite, so polls cant really substantiate an argument which is why a 2nd referendum isnt required

Again, nice try but no! We use current data for our evidence, we do not use favourable historic data and then use that for comparison purposes, duh!

[simoh1490]

Gosh, isn't the internet slow today, or maybe wiki is having problems, dunno!

[baansgr]

42 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Again, nice try but no! We use current data for our evidence, we do not use favourable historic data and then use that for comparison purposes, duh!

But the remoaners were banging on in October that sentiment had changed and were quoting numerous articles where at the same time this poll suggested otherwise. Apart from having a referendum or general election daily, weekly, monthly, of course peoples les views will change. You have to accept the results and move on. 

[simoh1490]

8 minutes ago, baansgr said:

But the remoaners were banging on in October that sentiment had changed and were quoting numerous articles where at the same time this poll suggested otherwise. Apart from having a referendum or general election daily, weekly, monthly, of course peoples les views will change. You have to accept the results and move on. 

Indeed we must. I, therefore, bet you a 16 December poll in favour of Remain, yet again - do I hear any increase:

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/16/new-brexit-poll-shows-people-back-remain-leave-10-points-7165717/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

Edited December 22, 2017 by simoh1490

[RuamRudy]

Here we go - the true objectives of Brexit are slowly becoming apparent. Last week we saw that ministers plan to scrap the EU Working Time Directive so that lucky UK employees will now be able to work 18 hours a day should their employer wish; now it seems that UK/US trade negotiations will be held in total secrecy, and that confidentiality maintained for 4 years after the conclusion of the talks, by which time we will be happily wolfing down our chlorination chicken while planning which Health Insurance Company to choose.

 

Exclusive: UK demands secrecy in Brexit trade talks with US

 

"Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade (DIT) has quietly opened preliminary discussions with a team of American officials. Both sides have agreed that their talks will be classified as either “sensitive” or “confidential”, and information will be shared only among approved individuals. Nothing can be released for four years after talks are concluded, unless both sides waive the secrecy rule, according to documents seen by i(news)."

 

[talahtnut]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Here we go - the true objectives of Brexit are slowly becoming apparent. Last week we saw that ministers plan to scrap the EU Working Time Directive so that lucky UK employees will now be able to work 18 hours a day should their employer wish; now it seems that UK/US trade negotiations will be held in total secrecy, and that confidentiality maintained for 4 years after the conclusion of the talks, by which time we will be happily wolfing down our chlorination chicken while planning which Health Insurance Company to choose.

 

Exclusive: UK demands secrecy in Brexit trade talks with US

 

"Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade (DIT) has quietly opened preliminary discussions with a team of American officials. Both sides have agreed that their talks will be classified as either “sensitive” or “confidential”, and information will be shared only among approved individuals. Nothing can be released for four years after talks are concluded, unless both sides waive the secrecy rule, according to documents seen by i(news)."

 

Remain or leave will make no difference to the common man.

The government and its economists will make sure us commoners

lose out. ie. will be stuffed.   Some things never change.

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Remain or leave will make no difference to the common man.

The government and its economists will make sure us commoners

lose out. ie. will be stuffed.   Some things never change.

Oh dearie me, feeling victimised are we!

 

The fact is that if Brexit goes really well, everyone will benefit, if it goes poorly it will result in higher taxes to pay for services and borrowings and as a result, the wealth creators, the business owners with money, many will leave. That will leave the less well off to fill the tax gap either directly by paying higher taxes or indirectly through fewer services. At some point, the electorate will get fed up with the Cons. and there will be an election where Labour could well end up in government. Given that scenario, the poorer in society will benefit in the short term but again, at some point, taxes will have to rise to pay for improved services and borrowings - that leads to a repeat of the above.

 

But getting back to being stuffed! As I recall I was twenty years old before I lived in a house that had central heating and my family was quite well off, many still didn't have an inside toilet. I was seventeen before we owned our first TV and car ownership was not common at all - few people had ever travelled overseas. Forty-five years on those things are now very different, just one example of how everyone benefits if the country does well, not just the very wealthy.

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Oh dearie me, feeling victimised are we!

 

The fact is that if Brexit goes really well, everyone will benefit, if it goes poorly it will result in higher taxes to pay for services and borrowings and as a result, the wealth creators, the business owners with money, many will leave. That will leave the less well off to fill the tax gap either directly by paying higher taxes or indirectly through fewer services. At some point, the electorate will get fed up with the Cons. and there will be an election where Labour could well end up in government. Given that scenario, the poorer in society will benefit in the short term but again, at some point, taxes will have to rise to pay for improved services and borrowings - that leads to a repeat of the above.

 

But getting back to being stuffed! As I recall I was twenty years old before I lived in a house that had central heating and my family was quite well off, many still didn't have an inside toilet. I was seventeen before we owned our first TV and car ownership was not common at all - few people had ever travelled overseas. Forty-five years on those things are now very different, just one example of how everyone benefits if the country does well, not just the very wealthy.

That's more about evolution and progress.  You can't simply adopt everything positive about business ande trade and put it under the title of Capitalism or Conservatism.  And you are assuming it's an upward arrow: it's not!  Younger people today can not possibly aspire to what you had. Just an old man's fantasy really.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Oh dearie me, feeling victimised are we!

 

The fact is that if Brexit goes really well, everyone will benefit, if it goes poorly it will result in higher taxes to pay for services and borrowings and as a result, the wealth creators, the business owners with money, many will leave. That will leave the less well off to fill the tax gap either directly by paying higher taxes or indirectly through fewer services. At some point, the electorate will get fed up with the Cons. and there will be an election where Labour could well end up in government. Given that scenario, the poorer in society will benefit in the short term but again, at some point, taxes will have to rise to pay for improved services and borrowings - that leads to a repeat of the above.

 

But getting back to being stuffed! As I recall I was twenty years old before I lived in a house that had central heating and my family was quite well off, many still didn't have an inside toilet. I was seventeen before we owned our first TV and car ownership was not common at all - few people had ever travelled overseas. Forty-five years on those things are now very different, just one example of how everyone benefits if the country does well, not just the very wealthy.

Perhaps you are lucky and done well in the system, but I know folk who are  poor, no car, no tv, no hope, working class.  Its known as austerity..a government policy to reduce the UK massive debt. The rich get the pleasure, and the poor get the blame.

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, aright said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/bilderberg-group-meeting-what-is-it-and-who-is-attending-global-elites-a7069561.html

 

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

That's fine but I'm still looking to Han to explain what he means, rich, powerful, successful, all those things etc?

Look at any neo-Fascist website and you will find your answer to those who dog-whistle references to 'Soros', 'Bilderberg Group', 'Globalism' etc.

[SheungWan]

21 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Perhaps you are lucky and done well in the system, but I know folk who are  poor, no car, no tv, no hope, working class.  Its known as austerity..a government policy to reduce the UK massive debt. The rich get the pleasure, and the poor get the blame.

It must be Christmas Panto time.

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

And if we didn't have a government which is acting out a pantomime, with no intention of actually brexiting, we could tell the EU to stick their demands where the sun doesn't shine. Instead, we are forced to watch a bunch of traitors doing third-rate theatre. Nobody has ever been able to answer the question: "Why does Europe need the EU?" People come up with aery-faery notions about keeping the peace (disproven) and 'togetherness' (), and avert their eyes to the elephant in the room: globalists on the make.

The uber Hard Brexiteers had their noses severely put out of joint when the UK Government made the Part 1 agreement with the EU. So now Theresa  May and Co are a bunch of traitors and another group added to the endless list of Enemies of the People. It would appear that the other forum Brexiteers are just either averting their eyes or more likely just taking cover behind the Loopy Squad. Either way these guys are back on the margins irrelevant to the discussions taking place in the real world.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Look at any neo-Fascist website and you will find your answer to those who dog-whistle references to 'Soros', 'Bilderberg Group', 'Globalism' etc.

I hadn't previously thought of the Independent as a neo-fascist newspaper, but we live and learn.

 

[simoh1490]

46 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

That's more about evolution and progress.  You can't simply adopt everything positive about business ande trade and put it under the title of Capitalism or Conservatism.  And you are assuming it's an upward arrow: it's not!  Younger people today can not possibly aspire to what you had. Just an old man's fantasy really.

2

I'm having difficulty understanding this, if I take it at face value then I have even more difficulty understanding why that should be! I grew up without the benefit of computers or mobile phones or even a university degree plus I grew up in a class ridden society in which I had no connections, AND I was from the North to boot! I left home with no money to speak of, I moved, I took chances, I worked hard, I took chances and I never lived off the state - I was 35 before I bought my first home in the UK. So please, do tell me MMB, why young people today can't aspire to achieving what I achieved and why it's just fantasy?

[SheungWan]

49 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Look at any neo-Fascist website and you will find your answer to those who dog-whistle references to 'Soros', 'Bilderberg Group', 'Globalism' etc.

 

36 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I hadn't previously thought of the Independent as a neo-fascist newspaper, but we live and learn.

 

Some live and learn and others endeavor to deflect.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm having difficulty understanding this, if I take it at face value then I have even more difficulty understanding why that should be! I grew up without the benefit of computers or mobile phones or even a university degree plus I grew up in a class ridden society in which I had no connections, AND I was from the North to boot! I left home with no money to speak of, I moved, I took chances, I worked hard, I took chances and I never lived off the state - I was 35 before I bought my first home in the UK. So please, do tell me MMB, why young people today can't aspire to achieving what I achieved and why it's just fantasy?

I suspect the poster was referring to the average person, not the fortunate few who escaped their poor background?

 

More specifically as to why things are far worse for young people today - pensions.  Good company schemes used to be relatively easily available - but they've been destroyed.

 

Wages/salaries dropped a few decades ago as companies 'restructured' their salary schemes - to the detriment of those at the bottom, but benefit of those at the top.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the EU - the blame for the foregoing can be laid entirely on Brit. govts. and the greed of the wealthy.

 

The open borders policy just allowed the already wealthy and greedy yet another opportunity to keep wages as low as possible.... 

[oldhippy]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I suspect the poster was referring to the average person, not the fortunate few who escaped their poor background?

 

More specifically as to why things are far worse for young people today - pensions.  Good company schemes used to be relatively easily available - but they've been destroyed.

 

Wages/salaries dropped a few decades ago as companies 'restructured' their salary schemes - to the detriment of those at the bottom, but benefit of those at the top.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the EU - the blame for the foregoing can be laid entirely on Brit. govts. and the greed of the wealthy.

 

The open borders policy just allowed the already wealthy and greedy yet another opportunity to keep wages as low as possible.... 

QUOTE: Good company schemes used to be relatively easily available - but they've been destroyed

 

True.

We Agree.

Now why did this happen? Who is responsible according to you? What can we do about it?  Or is this just one more of your one liners meant to show how clever you are?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Almost forgot - to reduce unemployment statistics easy, useless degree courses were introduced for those who would have been far better served (both for the country and themselves) learning a useful trade.

 

[oldhippy]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Almost forgot - to reduce unemployment statistics easy, useless degree courses were introduced for those who would have been far better served (both for the country and themselves) learning a useful trade.

 

Sure.

Now answer my question (post above).

You may not understand this, but there is a difference between whiners and complainers.

 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I suspect the poster was referring to the average person, not the fortunate few who escaped their poor background?

 

More specifically as to why things are far worse for young people today - pensions.  Good company schemes used to be relatively easily available - but they've been destroyed.

 

Wages/salaries dropped a few decades ago as companies 'restructured' their salary schemes - to the detriment of those at the bottom, but benefit of those at the top.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the EU - the blame for the foregoing can be laid entirely on Brit. govts. and the greed of the wealthy.

 

The open borders policy just allowed the already wealthy and greedy yet another opportunity to keep wages as low as possible.... 

 

Just now, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: Good company schemes used to be relatively easily available - but they've been destroyed

 

True.

We Agree.

Now why did this happen? Who is responsible according to you? What can we do about it?  Or is this just one more of your one liners meant to show how clever you are?

 

 

Good grief - my post was hardly a "one liner" and if you'd read it properly, you'd have spotted "Not that this has anything to do with the EU - the blame for the foregoing can be laid entirely on Brit. govts. and the greed of the wealthy.".....

 

I'm not even going to begin to address your final point..... 

[simoh1490]

I don't buy that things are any harder today than forty-five years ago, the challenges are different but there's more tools at your disposal plus the worlds a lot smaller place than it was, that's all. Pensions - get a SIPP and do it yourself rather than expecting a company to hand it to you on a plate. Salary too low at the bottom - do something about it, change jobs, change countries, change your field, change your education level, change something!

[oldhippy]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Good grief - my post was hardly a "one liner" and if you'd read it properly, you'd have spotted "Not that this has anything to do with the EU - the blame for the foregoing can be laid entirely on Brit. govts. and the greed of the wealthy.".....

 

I'm not even going to begin to address your final point..... 

Who's talking about the EU? Not me!

Your last sentence: how clever - in a smart ass way .

Now tell me : who is responsible? Please understand that this is happening all over the world, not just in your precious little country. Are you going to put your trust - like people now seem to do all over the world - in the neo fachist populist politicians, such as Trump, Farage, Wilders, LePen, the Polish / Austrian / Hungarian / German and other nutters?

 

[talahtnut]

16 hours ago, SheungWan said:

It must be Christmas Panto time.

Widow Twanky advertising the UK panto?

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Almost forgot - to reduce unemployment statistics easy, useless degree courses were introduced for those who would have been far better served (both for the country and themselves) learning a useful trade.

 

Thank goodness we have on this forum thread an eminent professorial expert on Higher Education issues impacting on Brexit.

Edited December 22, 2017 by SheungWan

[talahtnut]

16 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm having difficulty understanding this, if I take it at face value then I have even more difficulty understanding why that should be! I grew up without the benefit of computers or mobile phones or even a university degree plus I grew up in a class ridden society in which I had no connections, AND I was from the North to boot! I left home with no money to speak of, I moved, I took chances, I worked hard, I took chances and I never lived off the state - I was 35 before I bought my first home in the UK. So please, do tell me MMB, why young people today can't aspire to achieving what I achieved and why it's just fantasy?

In your days there were no zero hours contract, 100 people applying for the same job, and university grads having to work in McDonalds.

Times have changed.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Thank goodness we have on this forum thread an eminent professorial expert on Higher Education issues impacting on Brexit.

You don't need an education to state the obvious!

[SheungWan]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Thank goodness we have on this forum thread an eminent professorial expert on Higher Education issues impacting on Brexit.

 

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

You don't need an education to state the obvious!

I guess you are all in the clear then. Phew!

[vogie]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

 

I guess you are all in the clear then. Phew!

Yes intelligence can go a long way. You can educate an intelligent person but not the other way round as I'm sure you know.