May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Orac]

 
Using his position to resign from in such a theatrical (and slightly dishonest) way is exactly that.

He appears to disagree personally with the position of the government that he was serving. Are you suggesting he is not being honest about his position and really believes Brexit to be a good idea.


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[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

How do you infer that from my post? I stated the exact opposite. The main point I was making was that appointees should not use their appointed position to make grandstanding political gestures.

 

"How do you infer that from my post? I stated the exact opposite".

 

That's what I thought. But then I looked at it and realised that would have meant you agreed with me and since that's  never happened before, I figured there must be something wrong with my reading abilities hence the challenge. Unless of course, this is my New Years present, in which case....how sweet, I'm touched. 

[Khun Han]

55 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

He appears to disagree personally with the position of the government that he was serving. Are you suggesting he is not being honest about his position and really believes Brexit to be a good idea.


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His nominal reason for resigning was not brexit. It was the way he perceived that the East Coast rail franchise was being handled. His senior civil servant (not a politician), Bernadette Kelly, assured him he was quite wrong on this, and, er, ahem, accused him of doing what he was accusing Chris Grayling of (politicising the issue):

 

"Thx Andrew. I have to say I think you are quite wrong about the East Coast. Clearly the politics around franchising are sensitive but I am frankly dismayed that you should characterise the action being taken as unethical, or imagine that the Dept would allow a reckless view of VFM to be taken. Rather we are working very hard with CG [Chris Grayling] to ensure we have a ­positive way forward for the franchise. I’d be happy to elaborate though it is more difficult, and possibly pointless, for me to do so when you are taking such a strong political position yourself, or if you are not open to the points I might make."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/30/lord-adonis-resignation-brexit-policy-theresa-may-whitehall-morale-collapsed

 

Of course, after resigning and, rather dishonestly, blaming his resignation on Chris Grayling's behaviour, he went on to colour his resignation with endless anti-brexit rhetoric, which he tried to tie to his wrongly perceived view of Chris Grayling's behaviour. Just another Project Fear agent trying dishonestly to disrupt brexit .

[Orac]

 
His nominal reason for resigning was not brexit. It was the way he perceived that the East Coast rail franchise was being handled. His senior civil servant (not a politician), Bernadette Kelly, assured him he was quite wrong on this, and, er, ahem, accused him of doing what he was accusing Chris Grayling of (politicising the issue):
 
"Thx Andrew. I have to say I think you are quite wrong about the East Coast. Clearly the politics around franchising are sensitive but I am frankly dismayed that you should characterise the action being taken as unethical, or imagine that the Dept would allow a reckless view of VFM to be taken. Rather we are working very hard with CG [Chris Grayling] to ensure we have a ­positive way forward for the franchise. I’d be happy to elaborate though it is more difficult, and possibly pointless, for me to do so when you are taking such a strong political position yourself, or if you are not open to the points I might make."
 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/30/lord-adonis-resignation-brexit-policy-theresa-may-whitehall-morale-collapsed
 
Of course, after resigning and, rather dishonestly, blaming his resignation on Chris Grayling's behaviour, he went on to colour his resignation with endless anti-brexit rhetoric, which he tried to tie to his wrongly perceived view of Chris Grayling's behaviour. Just another Project Fear agent trying dishonestly to disrupt brexit .

Not sure why you refer to Bernadette Kelly as ‘his senior civil servant’. She is the Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and has no direct responsibility for him. As Chairman of the National Infrastructure Commission he is appointed by the PM and part of the Treasury Group with the Chancellor being responsible to parliament for its operation. He clearly has a difference on opinion to the way the Transport Ministry is being operated and, as someone with first hand knowledge of how it works, is probably in a better position than most to point out its failings.


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[ilostmypassword]

26 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

His nominal reason for resigning was not brexit. It was the way he perceived that the East Coast rail franchise was being handled. His senior civil servant (not a politician), Bernadette Kelly, assured him he was quite wrong on this, and, er, ahem, accused him of doing what he was accusing Chris Grayling of (politicising the issue):

 

"Thx Andrew. I have to say I think you are quite wrong about the East Coast. Clearly the politics around franchising are sensitive but I am frankly dismayed that you should characterise the action being taken as unethical, or imagine that the Dept would allow a reckless view of VFM to be taken. Rather we are working very hard with CG [Chris Grayling] to ensure we have a ­positive way forward for the franchise. I’d be happy to elaborate though it is more difficult, and possibly pointless, for me to do so when you are taking such a strong political position yourself, or if you are not open to the points I might make."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/30/lord-adonis-resignation-brexit-policy-theresa-may-whitehall-morale-collapsed

 

Of course, after resigning and, rather dishonestly, blaming his resignation on Chris Grayling's behaviour, he went on to colour his resignation with endless anti-brexit rhetoric, which he tried to tie to his wrongly perceived view of Chris Grayling's behaviour. Just another Project Fear agent trying dishonestly to disrupt brexit .

ANd Bernadette Kelly's comment is your idea of a convincing refutation?  It seems remarkably short of facts and specificity. Sounds more like persiflage.

Edited January 1, 2018 by ilostmypassword

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Not sure why you refer to Bernadette Kelly as ‘his senior civil servant’. She is the Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and has no direct responsibility for him. As Chairman of the National Infrastructure Commission he is appointed by the PM and part of the Treasury Group with the Chancellor being responsible to parliament for its operation. He clearly has a difference on opinion to the way the Transport Ministry is being operated and, as someone with first hand knowledge of how it works, is probably in a better position than most to point out its failings.


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You're not going to start splitting hairs, are you? That would be so below you. The importance of his professional relationship with Bernadette Kelly is manifold, as can be seen by the texts they were exchanging whilst he was out of the country. And anyone reading the text that I quoted from Bernadette Kelly (I repeat: not a politician) can see how unequivocal she was in her condemnation of the position he was forming.

[Orac]

 
You're not going to start splitting hairs, are you? That would be so below you. The importance of his professional relationship with Bernadette Kelly is manifold, as can be seen by the texts they were exchanging whilst he was out of the country. And anyone reading the text that I quoted from Bernadette Kelly (I repeat: not a politician) can see how unequivocal she was in her condemnation of the position he was forming.

Not splitting hairs at all. You are saying that Bernadette Kelly is Andrew Adonis’s senior civil servant when she is, in fact Chris Grayling’s senior civil servant which makes the world of difference when it is a decision by Chris Grayling he is criticising.


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[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

ANd Bernadette Kelly's comment is your idea of a convincing refutation?  It seems remarkably short of facts and specificity. Sounds more like persiflage.

 

Bernadette Kelly is not a politician. She is the Permanent Secretary to the DoT. She offered to give him the facts. But he resigned instead.

 

 

[Khun Han]

13 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Not splitting hairs at all. You are saying that Bernadette Kelly is Andrew Adonis’s senior civil servant when she is, in fact Chris Grayling’s senior civil servant which makes the world of difference when it is a decision by Chris Grayling he is criticising.


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You're being a bit silly. On the issue we are discussing (East Coast rail franchise), Bernadette Kelly was the most senior civil servant Adonis was dealing with. It's quite clear from her text messages exchanged with him, that he was the one not listening to the department's advice, not Chris Grayling. And that he was the one trying to politicise the issue, not Chris Grayling. Of course, you can choose to believe a prominently anti-brexit politician's version of events over that of a non-political civil servant if you wish to. And some appear to want to.

[Orac]

 
You're being a bit silly. On the issue we are discussing (East Coast rail franchise), Bernadette Kelly was the most senior civil servant Adonis was dealing with. It's quite clear from her text messages exchanged with him, that he was the one not listening to the department's advice, not Chris Grayling. And that he was the one trying to politicise the issue, not Chris Grayling. Of course, you can choose to believe a prominently anti-brexit politician's version of events over that of a non-political civil servant if you wish to. And some appear to want to.

Who is being silly?

She is not directly quoted in the article which suggest these messages have been provided by Andrew Adonis himself. She is a non-political civil servant who currently works directly for Chris Grayling and, as such, will clearly speak for her boss. To try and pass her off as some paragon of non-political virtue because the other guy is anti-brexit has the whiff of ridiculous about it.


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[Khun Han]

23 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Who is being silly?

She is not directly quoted in the article which suggest these messages have been provided by Andrew Adonis himself. She is a non-political civil servant who currently works directly for Chris Grayling and, as such, will clearly speak for her boss. To try and pass her off as some paragon of non-political virtue because the other guy is anti-brexit has the whiff of ridiculous about it.


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Sorry, but you're straying into tin foil hat territory with your attempt to call into question the integrity of Bernadette Kelly. And you do so to defend a politician who has been exposed by himself in both his releasing the text messages (a very poor call) and his own subsequent words. Like I said, It's a choice between an anti-brexit politician who has been exposed trying to dishonestly politicise his resignation, and a non-political civil servant. That's how desperate remain's Project Fear is getting. That's how low it has now stooped to.

[aright]

The Adonis incident is bizarre to say the least with his statement, the British Government "should be leading the British people to stay in Europe" This is a classic system of denial when the truth is the Tories won an election on Brexit and have put the Parliamentary machine in motion and have achieved progress in negotiations.

Brexit can not be stopped and all that rebellions can do is to sabotage Parliamentary process and talk of a second referendum only strengthens the EU's hand.

It is time for yesterdays men, Adonis, Heseltine, Blair and all the Europhile zealots, many on this forum, to accept the people's decision and help make it work. If they can't do that some responsibility must lie at their door for a possible tepid result.

[simoh1490]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

The Adonis incident is bizarre to say the least with his statement, the British Government "should be leading the British people to stay in Europe" This is a classic system of denial when the truth is the Tories won an election on Brexit and have put the Parliamentary machine in motion and have achieved progress in negotiations.

Brexit can not be stopped and all that rebellions can do is to sabotage Parliamentary process and talk of a second referendum only strengthens the EU's hand.

It is time for yesterdays men, Adonis, Heseltine, Blair and all the Europhile zealots, many on this forum, to accept the people's decision and help make it work. If they can't do that some responsibility must lie at their door for a possible tepid result.

3

"some responsibility must lie at their door for a possible tepid result".

 

Personally, I would have no problem with people pointing at me in the street and saying, "he was partially responsible for us remaining in the EU", I may even get a tee-shirt made up saying just that, if we ever reach that point, I'd be very proud indeed.

[aright]

24 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

"some responsibility must lie at their door for a possible tepid result".

 

Personally, I would have no problem with people pointing at me in the street and saying, "he was partially responsible for us remaining in the EU", I may even get a tee-shirt made up saying just that, if we ever reach that point, I'd be very proud indeed.

If it happens lets hope you are proud enough to enjoy Corbyn, nationalisation, crippling taxes and powerful trade unions which will go along with the outcome and the tee shirt.   

[ilostmypassword]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sorry, but you're straying into tin foil hat territory with your attempt to call into question the integrity of Bernadette Kelly. And you do so to defend a politician who has been exposed by himself in both his releasing the text messages (a very poor call) and his own subsequent words. Like I said, It's a choice between an anti-brexit politician who has been exposed trying to dishonestly politicise his resignation, and a non-political civil servant. That's how desperate remain's Project Fear is getting. That's how low it has now stooped to.

Sorry but just because you construe has actions on resigning as dishonest doesn't mean they are. And even if he were guilty of such, it doesn't mean that his allegations against Grayling are ill-founded. It seems pretty damning the way Grayling let them off the hook for 2 billion. It warrants more than a defense of the Grayling's character. Kelly's remarks did not in any way address the substance of Adonis' allegations. Still waiting for someone from the government who will.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Sorry but just because you construe has actions on resigning as dishonest doesn't mean they are. And even if he were guilty of such, it doesn't mean that his allegations against Grayling are ill-founded. It seems pretty damning the way Grayling let them off the hook for 2 billion. It warrants more than a defense of the Grayling's character. Kelly's remarks did not in any way address the substance of Adonis' allegations. Still waiting for someone from the government who will.

 

Firstly, it isn't 2bn. That was Adonis' headline figure, which he later revised down to "hundreds of millions" in the same bloody article, if you'd bothered to read it! The DoT has responded to his claims:

 

"A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “No one is getting a bailout and Virgin Stagecoach will continue to meet its financial commitments made on the East Coast rail franchise to the taxpayer as it has done since 2015.

“Stagecoach has also – on average - paid 20% more back to the taxpayer than when the line was operated by Directly Operated Rail and we continue to receive hundreds of millions of pounds.

“The decision bring in a partnership to run the service from 2020 is to ensure the train companies work more closely with those responsible for the infrastructure like the track and signalling to help improve the service for passengers.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/30/chris-grayling-must-quit-says-lord-adonis-east-coast-line-bailout

 

And from the same article:

 

"The Department for Transport refused to comment on Adonis’s criticism of Grayling. But sources said it was “unacceptable” for Adonis to make “misleading” statements. They said there was no bailout and the Virgin Stagecoach joint venture would continue to meet its financial commitments."

 

And, if you are going to dismiss the comments of a very senior civil servant, you need to come up with something better than the fact that the person to whom she offered a detailed explanation preferred to resign theatrically rather than listen to her explanation.

 

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, aright said:

If it happens lets hope you are proud enough to enjoy Corbyn, nationalisation, crippling taxes and powerful trade unions which will go along with the outcome and the tee shirt.   

There's no relationship between my desire to see Brexit cancelled and a Corbyn government, if Brexit were to fail and the electorate was to vote in Labour as a result, that would be the fault of the electorate and they will need to deal with it.

[Khun Han]

Just now, simoh1490 said:

There's no relationship between my desire to see Brexit cancelled and a Corbyn government, if Brexit were to fail and the electorate was to vote in Labour as a result, that would be the fault of the electorate and they will need to deal with it.

 

But if brexit fails there will be a Corbyn government. And everybody deliberately trying to undermine the current government will be responsible for that. People like you will own the years that will follow such an outcome.

[simoh1490]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

But if brexit fails there will be a Corbyn government. And everybody deliberately trying to undermine the current government will be responsible for that. People like you will own the years that will follow such an outcome.

And I suppose we're also responsible for global warming!

 

It's cute that you link the potential for a Labour government to the Remain camp and pass responsibility for that over to Remain, conveniently skipping over the Brexit vote itself, we forecast long ago that would happen. Trust me Han, that won't wash with anyone, divert as you may try to do.

[soalbundy]

22 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But if brexit fails there will be a Corbyn government. And everybody deliberately trying to undermine the current government will be responsible for that. People like you will own the years that will follow such an outcome.

I'd even vote for a communist if they would stop brexit.

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

I'd even vote for a communist if they would stop brexit.

 

You are effectively doing that by opposing brexit. Unfortunately for you, the comrade you will end up with is far more anti-EU than the current government .

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You are effectively doing that by opposing brexit. Unfortunately for you, the comrade you will end up with is far more anti-EU than the current government .

My experience of living and working in mainland Europe has only been positive, if that is communism I'm all for it. 

[simoh1490]

14 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You are effectively doing that by opposing brexit. Unfortunately for you, the comrade you will end up with is far more anti-EU than the current government .

Put another way, you effectively DID that when you supported Brexit with your vote!

[Jip99]

39 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

And I suppose we're also responsible for global warming!

 

It's cute that you link the potential for a Labour government to the Remain camp and pass responsibility for that over to Remain, conveniently skipping over the Brexit vote itself, we forecast long ago that would happen. Trust me Han, that won't wash with anyone, divert as you may try to do.

 

 

No Khun Han is right.

 

Corbyn is an opportunist and has (understandably) U-turned on his Brexit position to take advantage of getting on the bandwagon that is seeking to undermine the government. 

 

Anti-Brexiteers are indeed responsible for that...... but I don’t hold you responsible for global warming...

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

No Khun Han is right.

 

Corbyn is an opportunist and has (understandably) U-turned on his Brexit position to take advantage of getting on the bandwagon that is seeking to undermine the government. 

 

Anti-Brexiteers are indeed responsible for that...... but I don’t hold you responsible for global warming...

Interestingly, since I drive a diesel pickup truck, I feel more responsible for global warming than I do for a Corbyn government, for which I feel zero responsibility - but a nice try Jip.

[Khun Han]

26 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

My experience of living and working in mainland Europe has only been positive, if that is communism I'm all for it. 

 

Oh, Corbyn's government won't mirror your experiences in Europe. I can assure you of that .

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

Oh, Corbyn's government won't mirror your experiences in Europe. I can assure you of that .

My time in the UK never mirrored my positive experiences in mainland Europe no matter who was in power, for me the UK is like a bad dream but some like it.

[Jip99]

13 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

My time in the UK never mirrored my positive experiences in mainland Europe no matter who was in power, for me the UK is like a bad dream but some like it.

 

 

You could remounce your British citizenship.....if indeed you have any.

[Jip99]

31 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Interestingly, since I drive a diesel pickup truck, I feel more responsible for global warming than I do for a Corbyn government, for which I feel zero responsibility - but a nice try Jip.

 

Out of interest.....Would you be prepared to vote for a Corbyn government ?

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

Out of interest.....Would you be prepared to vote for a Corbyn government ?

Ordinarily no, but if I'd been forced to read the Sun and The Express for six months it might change my mind, it's the intellectual equivalent of waterboarding.