May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, aright said:

 

What does no response at all attract to a rational, but obviously, unwelcome question? What is worse than ridicule?

 

You obviously didn't like my previous answer in 12509, you can keep on asking  but the answer will stay the same..

[aright]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 9:00 AM, sandyf said:

EU commissioners are nominated by the EU council, heads of state and for the UK that is the Prime Minister, nominations must then be approved by the EU parliament, elected by the general public of the member states.

It is no wonder the country is in such a mess when brexiteers have so little basic understanding of the EU. If you wish to know the political leanings of the UK EU commissioner, ask David Cameron, he chose him.

 

How many of the UK electorate actually voted for TM to be Prime Minister and how many of the UK cabinet appointments were approved by the UK parliament.

The UK government, as opposed to parliament, is effectively an autocracy as a prime ministerial regime, but of course that is perceived by some as more democratic than the parliamentary approval method in the EU.

 

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You obviously didn't like my previous answer in 12509, you can keep on asking  but the answer will stay the same..

Its certainly worth a reprint because I don't think its relevant to or you don't understand my question.

The British electorate have a say through their vote who occupies or who is rejected from the highest Political position in the UK.

Where in your piece does it show the EU electorate having the same voting rights regarding the unelected European Commission?

Explanations aren't necessary just identify the sentences.  

 

[Orac]

I thought Gove's vision, yesterday, on British Agriculture post Brexit was very good and from what I saw on TV last night welcomed by many farmers.
I see a spokesman for the EU's farming sector has said the member states will need to pay more when the UK's £10.5 billion contribution is no longer available. This involves increasing the current 1% of GNI to 1.2%. Already Sweden the Netherlands and Austria have said they will not pay a penny more. They have asked that rather than ask taxpayers to pay more, Brussels should cut back on waste and cut out unnecessary programmes.
The Common Agricultural Policy costs £51 billion a year......40% of the Clubs entire spending. 
Last month a report by the EU's watchdog found billions of pounds of subsidies paid out to encourage green farming were pocketed by farmers who did nothing to protect the environment with the money.
 

I would agree with you.

Nobody is saying that all things about the EU are good - far from it.


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[nauseus]

56 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Its certainly worth a reprint because I don't think its relevant to or you don't understand my question.

The British electorate have a say through their vote who occupies or who is rejected from the highest Political position in the UK.

Where in your piece does it show the EU electorate having the same voting rights regarding the unelected European Commission?

Explanations aren't necessary just identify the sentences.  

 

Yep, 12509 a bare bones and lame attempt to convince us of the so-called democratic nature of EU Commission selection. That's it.    

[aright]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yep, 12509 a bare bones and lame attempt to convince us of the so-called democratic nature of EU Commission selection. That's it.    

I love the arrogant comment

"It is no wonder the country is in such a mess when brexiteers have so little basic understanding of the EU."

Like the EU's not in a mess......... psst "Don't mention the German Government, Catalonia, Poland, Corsica, extreme right wing Party's, etc "

 

There are four key institutions of the EU:  European Parliament, European Commission, the European Court of Justice and the  European Council . Each institution supposedly represents separate interests. The Commission represents the EU, the Parliament represents the people, the Council represents the Governments of each Member State and the Court interprets the law. However, these institutions do not do this in practice, as they all represent large multinationals and an integrationist agenda, as the intention is to create a federal United States of Europe.

The United States of Europe already exists. It has a flag, an anthem, a Parliament, a currency, a President, a legal system etc.. I don't want it, I am very happy being a citizen of GB

 

The EU is a highly undemocratic organisation scrabbling for more and more power as we can see from its handling of Catalonia, Poland and Rumania. It completely disregards public opinion. The law makers are unelected and therefore unaccountable. The only way to secure genuine democratic control over our own law makers is to leave the EU and so far job done.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by aright

[aright]

17 hours ago, Orac said:

 

 

I would agree with you.

Nobody is saying that all things about the EU are good - far from it.


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Very true!

There are five countries according to the Eurobarometer Report that think even less of the EU than Britain.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/five-countries-think-even-less-eu-britain-154941142.html

Edited January 6, 2018 by aright

[Orac]

Very true!
There are five countries according to the Eurobarometer Report that think even less of the EU than Britain.
 
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/five-countries-think-even-less-eu-britain-154941142.html

It does appear to say that but this article seems to have cherry picked just one question asked which does not really given enough context regarding changes to perceptions and could be viewed differently when reviewed in conjunction with other questions asked such as if people were optimistic about the future of the EU where only two countries were pessimistic (UK and Greece) and the most positive being Ireland with 80% saying they were optimistic.

Fuller details are here which gives a far more comprehensive view of the surveys results.

http://www.publicnow.com/view/FEBE51107BDE936173A8F010FD7F25E3AD4E0510?2017-12-19-16:00:25+00:00-xxx4696



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[aright]

Thanks for that.

Can you please check the link? It doesn't work for me.

[Orac]

Thanks for that.

Can you please check the link? It doesn't work for me.

 

 

Try this one - it is just the EU press release regarding this survey - obviously the actual data is far more voluminous.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-5312_en.htm

 

And graphs here

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/attachment/IP-17-5312/en/ANNEX%20IP-17-5312_en.pdf

 

 

 

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[soalbundy]

14 hours ago, aright said:

I love the arrogant comment

"It is no wonder the country is in such a mess when brexiteers have so little basic understanding of the EU."

Like the EU's not in a mess......... psst "Don't mention the German Government, Catalonia, Poland, Corsica, extreme right wing Party's, etc "

 

There are four key institutions of the EU:  European Parliament, European Commission, the European Court of Justice and the  European Council . Each institution supposedly represents separate interests. The Commission represents the EU, the Parliament represents the people, the Council represents the Governments of each Member State and the Court interprets the law. However, these institutions do not do this in practice, as they all represent large multinationals and an integrationist agenda, as the intention is to create a federal United States of Europe.

The United States of Europe already exists. It has a flag, an anthem, a Parliament, a currency, a President, a legal system etc.. I don't want it, I am very happy being a citizen of GB

 

The EU is a highly undemocratic organisation scrabbling for more and more power as we can see from its handling of Catalonia, Poland and Rumania. It completely disregards public opinion. The law makers are unelected and therefore unaccountable. The only way to secure genuine democratic control over our own law makers is to leave the EU and so far job done.

 

It isn't over yet. The European commission is elected by members of the European parliament who are elected by the citizens of Europe. You don't have genuine democratic control over your government anywhere, once every 4 years you can put a cross against a name (you don't know him or her from Joe Bloggs) after that policies are made without your input, yes you can vote them out after 4 years but after watching 'Big Brother' 'Love Island' and 'East Enders' and reading the Express and the Mirror most peoples minds don't even know what happened yesterday unless the price of cheap booze has gone up or the local drug dealer has been arrested. Don't overestimate the discerning members of the public.

[aright]

Thanks for that but I can't get your second link to work.

I have been looking at the actual eurobarometer itself.

As you can see some issues have a lot of green.

By the way I am not trying to say all things in the EU are bad. Had the Commission listened and half way responded to Cameron's plea for change I think we would still be there

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/eurobarometer-052017/default_en.htm#terrorism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

6 hours ago, aright said:

Thanks for that but I can't get your second link to work.

I have been looking at the actual eurobarometer itself.

As you can see some issues have a lot of green.

By the way I am not trying to say all things in the EU are bad. Had the Commission listened and half way responded to Cameron's plea for change I think we would still be there

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/eurobarometer-052017/default_en.htm#terrorism

 

He would have a lot of allies now, one should fight from the inside not outside. If we leave we will be back in again after 5 years but minus the pound, not a bad outcome.

[aright]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It isn't over yet. The European commission is elected by members of the European parliament who are elected by the citizens of Europe. You don't have genuine democratic control over your government anywhere, once every 4 years you can put a cross against a name (you don't know him or her from Joe Bloggs) after that policies are made without your input, yes you can vote them out after 4 years but after watching 'Big Brother' 'Love Island' and 'East Enders' and reading the Express and the Mirror most peoples minds don't even know what happened yesterday unless the price of cheap booze has gone up or the local drug dealer has been arrested. Don't overestimate the discerning members of the public.

 

 

The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners, who cannot be held to account. Each commissioner has a specific policy area in which to create laws. The Commission has a President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker); unlike the other 27 commissioners he is personally elected by the European Parliament, however his was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic is it?

As I recall when I voted at the last general election there were many names from a variety of Party's on the ballot paper. That's what I call democracy. You would obviously prefer to be supplicant to an unelected Commission who you would never want to get rid of because if you did there is no process.

Additionally, once something becomes an EU law, the Parliament has no ability to propose a change to this law. All the power is given to the Commission. It is clear the public's elected representatives do not matter in the EU. It's a 'club' to push through laws which would be rejected by national Parliaments as evidenced by Poland, Hungary etc..

I don't overestimate discerning members of the public but I also don't underestimate the political malice of significant members of both political parties and members of this forum when it comes to respecting the result of the Referendum.   

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Thanks for that.

Can you please check the link? It doesn't work for me.

http://www.publicnow.com/view/FEBE51107BDE936173A8F010FD7F25E3AD4E0510?2017-12-19-16:00:25+00:00-xxx4696

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

It isn't over yet. The European commission is elected by members of the European parliament who are elected by the citizens of Europe. You don't have genuine democratic control over your government anywhere, once every 4 years you can put a cross against a name (you don't know him or her from Joe Bloggs) after that policies are made without your input, yes you can vote them out after 4 years but after watching 'Big Brother' 'Love Island' and 'East Enders' and reading the Express and the Mirror most peoples minds don't even know what happened yesterday unless the price of cheap booze has gone up or the local drug dealer has been arrested. Don't overestimate the discerning members of the public.

Yet another weak attempt at supporting the crooked structure of the EU just sputters and dies as it decays into another rash of insults. Talk about lost minds!

Edited January 6, 2018 by nauseus

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, soalbundy said:

 

 

6 hours ago, aright said:

Thanks for that but I can't get your second link to work.

I have been looking at the actual eurobarometer itself.

As you can see some issues have a lot of green.

By the way I am not trying to say all things in the EU are bad. Had the Commission listened and half way responded to Cameron's plea for change I think we would still be there

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/eurobarometer-052017/default_en.htm#terrorism

 

Who knows how valid the source data is for this but it does show a lot of dissatisfaction with ALL EU policies! Thanks.

[aright]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Who knows how valid the source data is for this but it does show a lot of dissatisfaction with ALL EU policies! Thanks.

I had the same reservation when I first saw it but did come across this.

 

Published online: 16 December 2012
© Springer Science+Business Media Dordrecht 2012
Abstract. For nearly 40 years, the European Commission has observed the development of the European Union as it is reflected in public opinion. The Eurobarometer measures the European population’s attitudes about various issues related to Europe. The informational value of the Eurobarometer is viewed as quite high, since the surveys, which are conducted twice a year,  generate a large quantity of data.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, aright said:

I had the same reservation when I first saw it but did come across this.

 

Published online: 16 December 2012
© Springer Science+Business Media Dordrecht 2012
Abstract. For nearly 40 years, the European Commission has observed the development
of the European Union as it is reflected in public opinion. The Eurobarometer measures the
European population’s attitudes about various issues related to Europe. The informational
value of the Eurobarometer is viewed as quite high, since the surveys, which are conducted
twice a year, generate a large quantity of data.

In that case I hope the glass has a  

[Orac]

Yep,farmers with big acreages are doing very nicely thankyou out of the EU.I live in the Fens,a farmer near me has a collection of classic cars that would make you green with envy - Bentleys Ferraris Jags - on fine days he takes some of them out for a spin.Nice to know my taxes are going to a good cause !

Interesting point on this is that the EU does allow member states to set an upper limits under CAP basic payment scheme to prevent large landowners from making a killing - they did try to make the limits compulsory a few years back but failed to do so as it needed the agreement of all member states.

For reference, the U.K. has set upper limits (in euros) of 150,000 for N Ireland, 300,000 for Wales and 600,000 for Scotland but no upper limit for England.


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[baansgr]

12 hours ago, soalbundy said:

It isn't over yet. The European commission is elected by members of the European parliament who are elected by the citizens of Europe. You don't have genuine democratic control over your government anywhere, once every 4 years you can put a cross against a name (you don't know him or her from Joe Bloggs) after that policies are made without your input, yes you can vote them out after 4 years but after watching 'Big Brother' 'Love Island' and 'East Enders' and reading the Express and the Mirror most peoples minds don't even know what happened yesterday unless the price of cheap booze has gone up or the local drug dealer has been arrested. Don't overestimate the discerning members of the public.

And if you watched university chalkenge and read the Guardian or independent it would be the same.

[soalbundy]

45 minutes ago, baansgr said:

And if you watched university chalkenge and read the Guardian or independent it would be the same.

I read all of them, including the 'is this the end of times' Express. It is impossible to find a non biased newspaper, it should be the norm,they are there to print the news. The only online news media that I found to be neutral is 'der Spiegel'. Television just panders to the lowest denominator with rare exceptions of David Attenborough and a few and far between science programs.Seems to be the case world wide,give the pleps their opium. 

[simoh1490]

Here's yet another one on currency fact distortion, this time in the Telegraph but from the Leave Means Leave Campaign where they try yet again to poo poo historical fact!

 

The campaign says that Project Fear said the Pound would fall in value from USD1.25 to USD1.14, the leave campaign says in fact it went up to USD1.35!!!  There's a number of things wrong with that claim, not the least of which is the estimate for a fall was from Goldman Sachs and not from "Project Fear", the second and more obvious fault is that the Pound didn't rise, instead it fell from a high of USD 1.49 to a low in January of USD 1.20. It is true that a year later the value of the Pound rose to USD 1.35 but this was exclusively a function of the Dollar falling in value, not of a Pound increasing in value, as most people will know.

 

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=2Y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/project-fear-predictions-brexit-would-damage-economy-wildly/

 

There's then another piece in the article further on where the Leave Campaign claims that Project Fear projected growth at between 1.2% and 1.5% whereas in "reality, that's the Leave Campaign reality of course, it grew by 1.8%. It will come as no surprise that those numbers are massively distorted and incorrect also. In fact, 18 months after the vote the economy is thought to have grown by around 1.7% except this is far lower than the preceding five quarters which came in at 1.8%, 2%, 2%, 2.1% and 1.9% respectively, for any Brexiteers who haven't understood this part, that's a declining GDP!

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth-annual

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by simoh1490

[aright]

 

Project fear was wrong about Brexit, global economic ranking concludes, as UK looks set to overtake France

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/26/project-fear-wrong-brexit-global-economic-ranking-concludes/

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Project fear was wrong about Brexit, global economic ranking concludes, as UK looks set to overtake France

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/26/project-fear-wrong-brexit-global-economic-ranking-concludes/

Brexit hasn't happened yet, be patient.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Brexit hasn't happened yet, be patient.

Sounds like another dose of project fear to me.

 

 

 

[simoh1490]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Project fear was wrong about Brexit, global economic ranking concludes, as UK looks set to overtake France

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/26/project-fear-wrong-brexit-global-economic-ranking-concludes/

Perhaps go back and read the post before the one you posted above.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

Sounds like another dose of project fear to me.

 

 

 

No, it really hasn't happened yet, you can google it,even the Express say's so, so it must be true 

[aright]

Yes sorry  One glass of red wine too many last night

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Perhaps go back and read the post before the one you posted above.

good one, even with a trashed pound they have a falling GDP and Brexit is still some way off.

[aright]

21 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Brexit hasn't happened yet, be patient.

I think we have been patient long enough. 18 months ago we were told in the first year 500000 jobs would be lost, there would be mass unemployment and the economy would be in tatters , that's not great forecasting  by your tribe is it?  So tell us what's your current forecast and how long do we have to wait?

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

I think we have been patient long enough. 18 months ago we were told in the first year 500000 jobs would be lost, there would be mass unemployment and the economy would be in tatters , that's not great forecasting  by your tribe is it?  So tell us what's your current forecast and how long do we have to wait?

How!

 

Oh wait, our tribe has issued forecast upon forecast and you haven't thought much of any of them, how's about your tribe making one for once, for the first time in fact!