Grouse Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 On 28/11/2016 at 0:46 PM, dick dasterdly said: If you'd have left it at the first sentence, I'd have agreed with you. The rest is largely propaganda - with which most of us are tired. So you gents don't think ANY of the reasons I heard for leaving are valid? How odd! I was under the impression that there were several reasons and people came together to vote leave for one or a combination of reasons. I'm starting to think Brexiteers are incapable of logical discussion...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 22 hours ago, Khun Han said: Along with the failed financial scaremongering, this post pretty much sums up the remain campaign, why it failed, and why it will always fail in the future. Clearly you have little idea what's happening. Go on like that and I will have to modify my opinion of you as an informed, thoughtful debater (wrong though ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 On 11/28/2016 at 6:37 PM, Grouse said: I think we should agree that people voted leave for several reasons. Some of the reasons being valid and some not. In no particular order:- 1) Sovereignty 2) Xenophobia 3) Excessive migration 4) Jobs 5) EU imposed laws 6) Desire to open world markets 7) Escape employment regs 8) Stop payments to Brussels People voted for some but possibly not all. It is true that right wing racists tended to vote leave I believe a significant proportion were numpties (people who voted with inadequate information to make an informed decision) Roughly half the country want to remain. Leave won but it was not a landslide. We need a sensible way forward On 11/28/2016 at 6:46 PM, dick dasterdly said: If you'd have left it at the first sentence, I'd have agreed with you. The rest is largely propaganda - with which most of us are tired. 10 hours ago, Grouse said: So you gents don't think ANY of the reasons I heard for leaving are valid? How odd! I was under the impression that there were several reasons and people came together to vote leave for one or a combination of reasons. I'm starting to think Brexiteers are incapable of logical discussion...? I'm assuming that you deliberately mis-represented my post with your reply. Responding to your entire post I said "The rest is largely propaganda" (my emboldening). Although to be fair, your reply does make it clear that a few posters abandon logical discussion in favour of mis-representation and insults. Edit - Being fair, I also have to admit that "largely propaganda" was an exaggeration. I wouldn't mind so much, but I'm not a brexiteer as such which is why I eventually decided not to vote! However the constant insults thrown at anyone with a different opinion by a couple of posters have made me more inclined to argue against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: I'm assuming that you deliberately mis-represented my post with your reply. I said "The rest is largely propaganda" (my emboldening). Although to be fair, your reply does make it clear that a few posters abandon logical discussion in favour of mis-representation and insults. I wouldn't mind so much, but I'm not a brexiteer as such which is why I eventually decided not to vote! However the constant insults thrown at anyone with a different opinion by a couple of posters have made me more inclined to argue against them. I am not trying to insult or misrepresent anyone. All I was doing was suggest that there were a list of reasons why people voted to leave. Some of the reasons being valid and some not so IMHO. What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 On 27/11/2016 at 2:55 AM, sandyf said: "it seems a bit unlikely to me as (so far) few if any in the UK have been affected yet by the referendum result. " Tell that to those that feel unwelcome and intimidated. Brexit Britain: What has actually happened so far? - BBC News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Grouse said: So you gents don't think ANY of the reasons I heard for leaving are valid? How odd! I was under the impression that there were several reasons and people came together to vote leave for one or a combination of reasons. I'm starting to think Brexiteers are incapable of logical discussion...? 14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: I'm assuming that you deliberately mis-represented my post with your reply. Responding to your entire post I said "The rest is largely propaganda" (my emboldening). Although to be fair, your reply does make it clear that a few posters abandon logical discussion in favour of mis-representation and insults. Edit - Being fair, I also have to admit that "largely propaganda" was an exaggeration. I wouldn't mind so much, but I'm not a brexiteer as such which is why I eventually decided not to vote! However the constant insults thrown at anyone with a different opinion by a couple of posters have made me more inclined to argue against them. 1 minute ago, Grouse said: I am not trying to insult or misrepresent anyone. All I was doing was suggest that there were a list of reasons why people voted to leave. Some of the reasons being valid and some not so IMHO. What's wrong with that? Nothing whatsoever, except you tried to mis-represent my post (which said "largely propaganda") to the incorrect/sarcastic/insulting "So you gents don't think ANY of the reasons I heard for leaving are valid?". To make it worse, you then accused brexiteers of being "incapable of logical discussion" ! Hanged by your own petard springs to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, Grouse said: I am not trying to insult or misrepresent anyone. All I was doing was suggest that there were a list of reasons why people voted to leave. Some of the reasons being valid and some not so IMHO. What's wrong with that? More Grouse s*i* to be avoided. He has done nothing *BUT* insult and sneer at anyone who fails to toe his line. This form of debate is not constructive to either side as it detracts from the main themes of the discussion. There are several deeply entrenched "spoilers" who refuse to allow this debate to progress past jibing about personal qualities, when we could so easily be discussing the methodology of the Brexit process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 It's going to be a moot point soon. This little list of 2017 elections across Europe will produce enough surprises to make Donald Tusk look for a job "at home" in the same way as Schultz did. As for Junkers -- I fear he is a lost cause,,,, :) Albanian parliamentary election, 2017 Armenian parliamentary election, 2017 Czech parliamentary election, 2017 French presidential election, 2017 French legislative election, 2017 German presidential election, 2017 German parliamentary election, 2017 Hungarian presidential election, 2017 Liechtensteiner parliamentary election, 2017 the Netherlands general election, 2017 Norwegian parliamentary election, 2017 Serbian presidential election, 2017 Slovenian presidential election, 2017 UK local elections, 2017 courtesy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elections_in_2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loeilad Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Will Brexit improve the Uk's standard of living? No! Will it give UK citizens more freedoms or rights? no! Will it improve UK's standing on the world stage? No! Will it improve trade with the world? No! Still no-one has suggested a single benefit that has or will arise out of Brexit - all they are doing is trying to patch up the mess it has created. no-one has come up with a single real benefit. they've broken the mchine and are now trying to blame others because it doesn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 As everyone knows -- follow the money trail - or lack of it. EU can not balance it's books with UK as a member, how will they manage when UK is gone? France is squaring up for an "interesting" presidential election, which might see Le Penn do a Franxit even quicker than UK. The Dutch are great pragmatists and will see which way the winds blowing. Timing is on their side - their elections are not till later in the year, but which time there will not be much of an EU to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, Loeilad said: Will Brexit improve the Uk's standard of living? No! Will it give UK citizens more freedoms or rights? no! Will it improve UK's standing on the world stage? No! Will it improve trade with the world? No! Still no-one has suggested a single benefit that has or will arise out of Brexit - all they are doing is trying to patch up the mess it has created. no-one has come up with a single real benefit. they've broken the mchine and are now trying to blame others because it doesn't work Those look like highly personalised opinions -- not facts. The "machine" was broken by it's operators -- the Brussels beaurocracy. We mere mortals have to do something to keep the show on the road now that we know the "machine" is defunct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 On 28/11/2016 at 11:39 AM, Grouse said: I don't understand your point IMHO, Sterling would bounce back quickly if Brexit was abandoned. What bias is that? Opinions are just that. The reality is that sterling was way over-valued in the middle of last year and needed adjusting anyway. Take a look back at the various BoE comments on that topic. Sterling is about where it should be now, making UK exporters happy and increasing the "home spend" on many things. Also, there was talk somewhere of the number of asian tourists going up by 20%. Sterling is doing a good job for UK at the moment - leave it alone....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: Nothing whatsoever, except you tried to mis-represent my post (which said "largely propaganda") to the incorrect/sarcastic/insulting "So you gents don't think ANY of the reasons I heard for leaving are valid?". To make it worse, you then accused brexiteers of being "incapable of logical discussion" ! Hanged by your own petard springs to mind. I genuinely don't understand why you say the list of possible reasons for voting Brexit I suggested is propaganda. I was trying to get away from the claims that ALL Brexiteers are racist or ALL Brexiteers are numpties. Clearly there are multiple motivations and combinations of motivations. I really don't get your sensitivity! BTW a petard is a small canon. One could theoretically be hoist by one but not hanged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 3 hours ago, jpinx said: More Grouse s*i* to be avoided. He has done nothing *BUT* insult and sneer at anyone who fails to toe his line. This form of debate is not constructive to either side as it detracts from the main themes of the discussion. There are several deeply entrenched "spoilers" who refuse to allow this debate to progress past jibing about personal qualities, when we could so easily be discussing the methodology of the Brexit process. You clearly did not not understand my post which was entirely reasonable and in no way intended to insult anyone. Your post is actually offensive. Kindly desist or face being reported Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 3 hours ago, jpinx said: Opinions are just that. The reality is that sterling was way over-valued in the middle of last year and needed adjusting anyway. Take a look back at the various BoE comments on that topic. Sterling is about where it should be now, making UK exporters happy and increasing the "home spend" on many things. Also, there was talk somewhere of the number of asian tourists going up by 20%. Sterling is doing a good job for UK at the moment - leave it alone....... As you say, opinions are just opinions. Lets see what happens in 2017 when inflation really kicks in and hedged positions unwind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Just now, Grouse said: You clearly did not not understand my post which was entirely reasonable and in no way intended to insult anyone. Your post is actually offensive. Kindly desist or face being reported Really? You'd have the nerve to report someone for being offensive? I get your point though as you've always been careful to be general when accusing those with different views as stupid and uneducated.... And you're quite right that the correct expression is 'hoist by your own petard' , excuse me for changing it slightly to point out the ridiculousness of your own 'argument'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Grouse said: You clearly did not not understand my post which was entirely reasonable and in no way intended to insult anyone. Your post is actually offensive. Kindly desist or face being reported Feel free -- I call it as I see it. There are no personalities involved since we never meet, but if we did we would probably argue all night and end up good friends from different camps. Don't talk like a snob and you won't be called one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, Grouse said: As you say, opinions are just opinions. Lets see what happens in 2017 when inflation really kicks in and hedged positions unwind.... Actually the thing to watch for in 2017 is the results of all these interesting elections across Europe. Inflation isn't going anywhere, same as sterling...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauptmannUK Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 12 hours ago, jpinx said: Opinions are just that. The reality is that sterling was way over-valued in the middle of last year and needed adjusting anyway. Take a look back at the various BoE comments on that topic. Sterling is about where it should be now, making UK exporters happy and increasing the "home spend" on many things. Also, there was talk somewhere of the number of asian tourists going up by 20%. Sterling is doing a good job for UK at the moment - leave it alone....... That's a statement made from a basis of no knowledge, I'm afraid. I work in international trade and see no evidence that Sterling was over-valued as of June. Whilst certain sectors of the economy may benefit from a devaluation of Sterling (agricultural exports, tourism) most sectors will experince a downside. In manufacturing, the majority of the raw materials and components that we use are imported. The machinery we use is also largely imported. In other words, most of the 'things we use to make things' will rise in price. This has not yet hit us now, because we are by-and-large still working to prices agreed earlier this year. The impact is yet to be felt. The UK imports about 35% of its goods and services. For the most part these imports are not easily substituted from domestic sources. A 15% devalutation in GBP translates into inflation of about 5% - which is what we'll likey see next year. Exports may well become cheaper but that will largely be paid for by a relative reduction in wages due to pay rises not keeping pace with inflation. In other words, any increase in the competitiveness of UK exports will largely be funded by the lower living standards of the workforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 5 hours ago, HauptmannUK said: That's a statement made from a basis of no knowledge, I'm afraid. I work in international trade and see no evidence that Sterling was over-valued as of June. Whilst certain sectors of the economy may benefit from a devaluation of Sterling (agricultural exports, tourism) most sectors will experince a downside. In manufacturing, the majority of the raw materials and components that we use are imported. The machinery we use is also largely imported. In other words, most of the 'things we use to make things' will rise in price. This has not yet hit us now, because we are by-and-large still working to prices agreed earlier this year. The impact is yet to be felt. The UK imports about 35% of its goods and services. For the most part these imports are not easily substituted from domestic sources. A 15% devalutation in GBP translates into inflation of about 5% - which is what we'll likey see next year. Exports may well become cheaper but that will largely be paid for by a relative reduction in wages due to pay rises not keeping pace with inflation. In other words, any increase in the competitiveness of UK exports will largely be funded by the lower living standards of the workforce. Exporters were struggling to compete abroad prior to the June drop in Sterling and now many of them are breathing a huge sigh of relief and showing considerable increases in exports. The experience of almost all the exporters I know is of a surge in trade, mostly to USA. Your comment on the stagnation of the living standards of lower paid employees is well-made, but don't imagine for a minute that they had not thought this through. They want out of EU and are prepared to take their share of the heat. Whether inflation reaches 5% is a moot point - your opinion is only that and others differ widely. Your lack of perception of the value of sterling in the first part of 2016 does you no favours. It has been in many commentaries from bankers and finance houses both in side UK and abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Do we have any better idea as to the meaning of the Court's ruling? Is invoking article 50 dependent on an MPs vote/does the ruling mean that MPs must debate ever negotiation points/or does it mean that an MPs vote is required at the end of the negotiations? If the Court ruling means that invoking article 50 requires the MPs to vote and approve the move - then surely that should be carried out immediately as I gather the govt. doesn't intend to take the issue to higher courts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Do we have any better idea as to the meaning of the Court's ruling? Is invoking article 50 dependent on an MPs vote/does the ruling mean that MPs must debate ever negotiation points/or does it mean that an MPs vote is required at the end of the negotiations? If the Court ruling means that invoking article 50 requires the MPs to vote and approve the move - then surely that should be carried out immediately as I gather the govt. doesn't intend to take the issue to higher courts? The court ruling required an act of parliament before notification could be given.The appeal to the SC begins on 5th december Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: The court ruling required an act of parliament before notification could be given.The appeal to the SC begins on 5th december So the court ruling means that article 50 cannot be invoked until MPs agree with the decision unless the appeal (against the court decision) prevails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: So the court ruling means that article 50 cannot be invoked until MPs agree with the decision unless the appeal (against the court decision) prevails? In a nutshell correct, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 29 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: So the court ruling means that article 50 cannot be invoked until MPs agree with the decision unless the appeal (against the court decision) prevails? 20 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: In a nutshell correct, Close to the last 'nail' in the concept of democracy . The question was clear, the pre-referendum rhetoric was clear (the govt. will abide by your vote), and yet this has been over-turned by the courts. Great for everyone other than those who actually voted and 'won' the referendum. No wonder this court decision was reported and then largely ignored in favour of further 'discussions' about what may happen in the future with EU negotiations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 The first election after the referendum was lost by a Brexiteer, Zac Goldsmith. Another speed bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, stevenl said: The first election after the referendum was lost by a Brexiteer, Zac Goldsmith. Another speed bump. Yes, in RICHMOND! A conservative party stronghold that is now held by the Lib Dems. Let's wait and see what happens in a constituency that voted pro brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Close to the last 'nail' in the concept of democracy . The question was clear, the pre-referendum rhetoric was clear (the govt. will abide by your vote), and yet this has been over-turned by the courts. Great for everyone other than those who actually voted and 'won' the referendum. No wonder this court decision was reported and then largely ignored in favour of further 'discussions' about what may happen in the future with EU negotiations! The only nail is the one sticking out of your misconception of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said: Do we have any better idea as to the meaning of the Court's ruling? Is invoking article 50 dependent on an MPs vote/does the ruling mean that MPs must debate ever negotiation points/or does it mean that an MPs vote is required at the end of the negotiations? If the Court ruling means that invoking article 50 requires the MPs to vote and approve the move - then surely that should be carried out immediately as I gather the govt. doesn't intend to take the issue to higher courts? This is one of those 'don't call me Shirley' moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 39 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Close to the last 'nail' in the concept of democracy . The question was clear, the pre-referendum rhetoric was clear (the govt. will abide by your vote), and yet this has been over-turned by the courts. Great for everyone other than those who actually voted and 'won' the referendum. No wonder this court decision was reported and then largely ignored in favour of further 'discussions' about what may happen in the future with EU negotiations! You appear to misunderstand the courts decision . The court has not ruled on the merit of the referendum or how parliament should vote, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.