Brexit hits speed bump as court rules lawmakers must get say

[Johnyo]

Just now, jpinx said:

The fact is that all the polls prior to the Referendum over some period of time back,  gave results that were within the same error bracket as the actual vote.  This is a strong indicator that people did not change their minds at the last minute because of any of the campaigning. 

 

I agree that there was a large % of the population that were unhappy with their life and wanted change. I 'm just not sure that leaving/blaming the EU is going to give them the result/feeling they expect. Maybe I'm wrong.

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, Johnyo said:

 

I agree that there was a large % of the population that were unhappy with their life and wanted change. I 'm just not sure that leaving/blaming the EU is going to give them the result/feeling they expect. Maybe I'm wrong.

It was as if they felt they had tried everything else and the politicians had failed over the years to provide what was needed.  Brexit was the last option maybe?  Did anyone in the Remain camp make a serious effort to actually provide an alternative -- rather than just "shouting down" the brexiters?    This environment of confrontational party politics is a real poison to reasonable thought.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

ok -- here's a reference - first one out of the hat - and it contradicts what you appear to be saying...

 

When the costs of living are accounted for, low paid workers in the UK are the second richest in the EU15 after Luxembourg.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/284

 

 

 

Clearly the U.K. Was a magnet for workers from poorer parts of the EU when we had good growth, plenty of jobs and a relatively strong pound. Not so attractive now. Workers from Eurozone countries working in the UK have effectively seen a 20% pay cut. 

 

UK plumbers are now looking for work in Poland ?

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

After reading the last 15 comments it becomes clear why Brexit won. The leavers really believed that "them foreigners can just come to our country and live for nothing from my hard earned taxes".

 

Maybe one day they will realise they've been royally screwed by what amounts to nothing more than a power grab by the Tory right to remain in power after their policy's had failed the British people over the last 6 years. The sad thing is the Torys would probably get a landslide victory should there be a general election tomorrow. It will take a good part of a generation for the damage to really show.

 

Well said sir!

[HauptmannUK]

19 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The fact is that all the polls prior to the Referendum over some period of time back,  gave results that were within the same error bracket as the actual vote.  This is a strong indicator that people did not change their minds at the last minute because of any of the campaigning. 

The problem is that the 'Great British Public' have been subject to several decades of anti-EU propaganda by certain sections of the press.  Older people, in particular, seem to have been brainwashed over the years.  The common scapegoats are...

1. 'Its because of EU rules, regulations'...etc

2. 'Can't do that - Health and Safety'.

3. 'Sorry, can't tell you - Data Protection'.

 

Mostly its not true, of course.

 

My 85 year old mother is a case in point. She rather likes the Poles (they are Catholic and white, like her - and she likes rye bread from the Polish supermarket). But she doesn't like Muslims and after reading the Daily Mail every day has become convinced that the EU is responsible for Muslim immigration to the UK - hence voted for Brexit!

[Grouse]

59 minutes ago, Johnyo said:

 

I realise this but you have to wonder on what other issues they were misinformed. 

 

Immigration misunderstandings generally.

 

The Turkey LIE for example

 

total misunderstanding of Schengen.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Grouse

[7by7]

In my view, both campaigns played the fear card.

 

The Remain campaign relied too much on the bad things which would or might, happen if we left rather than concentrating on the benefits of membership.

 

The Leave campaign played on the xenophobia of many Brits saying that Brexit would drastically reduce immigration. Which it may, but around half of those immigrating to the UK come from outside the EEA, most of those emigrating go to other EU countries; so the overall effect on net migration could very well be minimal.

 

Then there were the lies they told such as the £350 million a week  EU membership cost the British taxpayer when they knew full well that after the rebate it's actually £250 million. That's a lot of money; but then again it doesn't take account of the EU money spent in the UK.

 

 

Graphic from Full Fact

 

Of course, this figure does not take into account the benefits to the UK economy of EU membership. What effect Brexit will have on those we will have to wait and see over the long term.

 

The old, and debunked, EU myths were also brought up by certain elements of the Leave campaign; such as the EU wanting to ban bendy bananas.

 

Of course, the Remain campaign weren't above producing the odd myth about what would happen if we left; but it was a card played mostly by Leave.

 

EU referendum: 10 myths about the European Union

Quote

Readers may notice that the Brexit camp is over-represented here: that is not, as some may infer, editorial bias. In general, the Leavers are more prone to making statements that are simply wrong: the Remainers, for their part, produce doomsday calculations that may overstate their case, but are generally harder to “pop”.

 

[Johnyo]

It was as if they felt they had tried everything else and the politicians had failed over the years to provide what was needed.  Brexit was the last option maybe?  Did anyone in the Remain camp make a serious effort to actually provide an alternative -- rather than just "shouting down" the brexiters?    This environment of confrontational party politics is a real poison to reasonable thought. [emoji20]

I totally agree with you. The Remain campaign was so badly run they would have had more success by saying nothing. They spent too much time coming out with facts that most people did not relate to. I don't remember anyone explaining for example the reality of the benefits situation as it has been explained so well in this forum.


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[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, Johnyo said:

 

I agree that there was a large % of the population that were unhappy with their life and wanted change. I 'm just not sure that leaving/blaming the EU is going to give them the result/feeling they expect. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

As I said previously, people wanted CHANGE. In these circumstances, it is easy for demagogues to blame problems on someone or something such as the EU. In fact our governments have allowed inequality to get out of hand - look at the Gini coefficients. Actually some of this is down to globalisation and automation and fiscal policy. Same situation in USA. This correlates with the fact that the better educated, the more successful, the higher social demographic classes were more content with the status quo. The dissatisfied rebelled and because we allowed the inequality to grow so much, we have to swallow the consequences. Dangerous times.

Ironically, the disadvantaged will be worse off because of both Brexit and Trump .....

[jpinx]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

As I said previously, people wanted CHANGE. In these circumstances, it is easy for demagogues to blame problems on someone or something such as the EU. In fact our governments have allowed inequality to get out of hand - look at the Gini coefficients. Actually some of this is down to globalisation and automation and fiscal policy. Same situation in USA. This correlates with the fact that the better educated, the more successful, the higher social demographic classes were more content with the status quo. The dissatisfied rebelled and because we allowed the inequality to grow so much, we have to swallow the consequences. Dangerous times.

Ironically, the disadvantaged will be worse off because of both Brexit and Trump .....

It's always the peasants that revolt    Look at France, Russia, etc -- always the peasants led by some megalomanics. 

[Donutz]

9 hours ago, jpinx said:

MYes --  the reality is as clear as mud.  The "EU rules on free movement" that you refer to are some other bit of EU law that was slipped in --  in spite of UK opting out of Schengen..  Yet more proof of the EU's determination to over-ride the wishes of the representative governments of the member countries.

But the EU cannot force a directive such as Freedom of Movement on a member state. If the UK had decided they disliked the directive and would not sign it they would not have been part of the open borders for goods, people and services. The UK must have had the opinion that overall there would be more benefits than drawbacks. 

[jpinx]

6 hours ago, Donutz said:

But the EU cannot force a directive such as Freedom of Movement on a member state. If the UK had decided they disliked the directive and would not sign it they would not have been part of the open borders for goods, people and services. The UK must have had the opinion that overall there would be more benefits than drawbacks. 

UK opted out of signing the Schengen agreement which enthroned freedom of movement, but somehow the EU managed to force the free-movement rules on UK.  How did that work? 

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, Johnyo said:

 

I totally agree with you. The Remain campaign was so badly run they would have had more success by saying nothing. They spent too much time coming out with facts that most people did not relate to. I don't remember anyone explaining for example the reality of the benefits situation as it has been explained so well in this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

  I get the feeling that had some of the arrogant  Remoaners here on T.V.  actually lead the remain campaign, that the vote to exit this undemocratic and corrupt so called Union,would have been far greater than a Majority of 1,300,000 million.

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, Donutz said:

But the EU cannot force a directive such as Freedom of Movement on a member state. If the UK had decided they disliked the directive and would not sign it they would not have been part of the open borders for goods, people and services. The UK must have had the opinion that overall there would be more benefits than drawbacks. 

 

The E.U cannot force a directive. But they have,that's been part of the problem.

Successive British governments have repeatedly agreed to change what the people voted for in 1975. This is the core of the problem. Fool me once,shame on you,shame me twice, shame on me.

 

 

 

 

[elliss]

On 11/4/2016 at 8:50 AM, Emster23 said:

Now to see if enough members in Parliament have the cojones to over ride the Brexit vote and stay in EU

 

                   That will do  nicely .

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

UK opted out of signing the Schengen agreement which enthroned freedom of movement, but somehow the EU managed to force the free-movement rules on UK.  How did that work? 

 

The four freedoms were part of the  Treaty of Rome 1957 and are part and parcel of the EEC. Schengen was 1995 and UK opted out.

[jpinx]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

The four freedoms were part of the  Treaty of Rome 1957 and are part and parcel of the EEC. Schengen was 1995 and UK opted out.

The freedom the Treaty of Rome refers to is the right to work anywhere in the member countries, not a right of free passage to search for work.

[Laughing Gravy]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:20 PM, Grouse said:

What's wrong with chauvinist? That's me being polite! I should have said nasty racist bigots ?

 

Bet it you did not look at that documentary. You might have learnt something.

 

Sometimes fools don't know what's best. Don't you agree? There are people much smarter than me.....

 

I am not exaggerating when I say sometimes I'm ashamed to be British?

 

On a night flight to LHR tonight. The A380 beds are supposed to be good so I might get some sleep ?

Grouse you crack me up.  For someone who calls people who have less intelligent as numptys or disagree with you and also southern people as puffs, I am a bigot and racist. Well I hope you enjoyed your time in London. I am sure they will appreciate your humour.

[jpinx]

Some more facts -- to muddle the issue :)

A nice way to see what the pound is doing versus a basket of currencies and indices...

 

url is in the screenshot....

[Laughing Gravy]

16 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

The problem is that the 'Great British Public' have been subject to several decades of anti-EU propaganda by certain sections of the press.

I would actually argue that the UK have been told of lots of EU propaganda and that if the truth would have been told we might have not got into the situation we are now in.

Older people seem to be getting the blame for brexit and whilst many did vote for it they also remember before the EU and how the EU was self sufficient. Lets not forget what the EU was about. Improving Trade between its members. Something that the EU hassimply moved  away from and has tried to force the federalization of the European countries within it.

[HauptmannUK]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would actually argue that the UK have been told of lots of EU propaganda and that if the truth would have been told we might have not got into the situation we are now in.

Older people seem to be getting the blame for brexit and whilst many did vote for it they also remember before the EU and how the EU was self sufficient. Lets not forget what the EU was about. Improving Trade between its members. Something that the EU hassimply moved  away from and has tried to force the federalization of the European countries within it.

I remember before the EU. I don't recognise the 'federalisation' that is often talked about.

Being British, and having lived and worked in France & Germany (and speaking both languages) it seems to me that the EU has had a very positive impact on the lives of most working people.

Some things have gone wrong (free movement - although some of the flaws there are due to UK policy rather than the EU). I also think Merkle lost her marbles over migration. No, its not perfect. But better to be on the inside and try to fix it rather than on the outside with your nose pressed against the window.

Much of my work involves international trade and I think the current government is being delusional about our prospects outside the EU.  I think if hard brexit happens then life will get very tough. Its a cold hard world out there. The Americans, Chinese, Indians will not do us any favours.

I am posting this from Bengaluru. Mrs May was here last week. The Indians were not impressed. In fact I would say that the Indians in general don't care much for the British.  The Americans and Germans are preferred...

[billd766]

1 hour ago, HauptmannUK said:

I remember before the EU. I don't recognise the 'federalisation' that is often talked about.

Being British, and having lived and worked in France & Germany (and speaking both languages) it seems to me that the EU has had a very positive impact on the lives of most working people.

Some things have gone wrong (free movement - although some of the flaws there are due to UK policy rather than the EU). I also think Merkle lost her marbles over migration. No, its not perfect. But better to be on the inside and try to fix it rather than on the outside with your nose pressed against the window.

Much of my work involves international trade and I think the current government is being delusional about our prospects outside the EU.  I think if hard brexit happens then life will get very tough. Its a cold hard world out there. The Americans, Chinese, Indians will not do us any favours.

I am posting this from Bengaluru. Mrs May was here last week. The Indians were not impressed. In fact I would say that the Indians in general don't care much for the British.  The Americans and Germans are preferred...

Some (biased?) news from the BBC. I liked the last paragraph.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37970995

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37966519

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37968121

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37408662

 

That has covered the three biggest political parties in England.

 

And now one for the Wee Jimmy Krankie fans.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37966943

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, jpinx said:

The freedom the Treaty of Rome refers to is the right to work anywhere in the member countries, not a right of free passage to search for work.

 

Now that just might be a solution. Thanks for the clarity!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Grouse you crack me up.  For someone who calls people who have less intelligent as numptys or disagree with you and also southern people as puffs, I am a bigot and racist. Well I hope you enjoyed your time in London. I am sure they will appreciate your humour.

 

Im in Yorkshire: Land of the free, home of the brave!

 

Please don't misunderstand MY usage of the technical term numpty. I use this to describe those who had little knowledge and inadequate education but felt able to vote anyway. Not all Brexiteers are numpties. Most numpties are Brexiteers. 

 

I dont care for muslims because of their customs and social mores. I am not frightened of them so am I an islamophobe? They are not a race so am I a racist? I am pro foreigners generally so am I a xenophobe? I am an atheist. Does that help?

 

The Southern puffs comment is a traditional ironic Yorkshire jibe.

 

I was holding fort in the pub yesterday. No problem whatever. Bright people mind you....

 

What neck of the woods are you from?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would actually argue that the UK have been told of lots of EU propaganda and that if the truth would have been told we might have not got into the situation we are now in.

Older people seem to be getting the blame for brexit and whilst many did vote for it they also remember before the EU and how the EU was self sufficient. Lets not forget what the EU was about. Improving Trade between its members. Something that the EU hassimply moved  away from and has tried to force the federalization of the European countries within it.

 

The EEC was primarily to prevent further European wars by locking in Germany. PLEASE read the history

[RuamRudy]

On 11/13/2016 at 9:22 AM, gmac said:

 

Not quite.  I have no right to live in Thailand, I apply to the immigration department on an annual basis and they allow me to stay here if I have enough money.  EU nationals on the other hand can come to the UK with nothing and expect the state to look after them. 

 

As you could go to any country in EU and expect that state to look after you. But Daily Mail headline BS aside, our own government doesn't know how much benefits and tax credits are paid to immigrants so I am certain that you don't either. 

 

However, University College London reckons that "Over the period from 2001 to 2011, European immigrants from the EU-15 countries contributed 64% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from the Central and East European ‘accession’ countries (the ‘A10’) contributed 12% more than they received."

 

So the UK benefits more from EU immigrants than Thailand, presumably, benefits from you living there. 

[sandyf]

On 11/13/2016 at 2:26 PM, CharlieK said:

 

I won't argue with an idiot. But the UK cannot control its borders because the EU will not allow it to. It even insists that on Brexit the UK has to accept open borders to trade with the EU!  

"the UK has to accept open borders to trade with the EU!"

 

This was one of the most misleading issues of the leave campaign. The term 'open border' is a complete misnomer in respect of the UK. Everyone entering the UK must pass through border control and have their passport checked, there are no open borders.

It may be hard to believe but there is a large percentage of the population that have never left the country and have absolutely no idea what happens at points of entry. When politicians stand up and say the UK must take back control of the borders and stop the open border policy, how are they supposed to know that people do not move from the EU to the UK in the same way people move from Germany to Holland.

The leave campaign pushed this misleading statement to scare people into voting their way, and the remain side made no attempt to clarify the reality. EU citizens are not free to walk into the UK, they must be checked in and do have certain rights of entry, something that will not change if the UK remains in the single market.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, jpinx said:

The freedom the Treaty of Rome refers to is the right to work anywhere in the member countries, not a right of free passage to search for work.

That is why it is the free movement of labour, but it gets misquoted as the free movement of people.

[Scott]

Posts containing a slur have been removed and suspensions will be issued.   The topic is about Brexit.   If you are done discussing then move on.   Trolling is not permitted. 

[jpinx]

New thread about the possibility of the EU breaking up is here...

 

[Loeilad]

11 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is why it is the free movement of labour, but it gets misquoted as the free movement of people.

Both EU and svhengen allow free movement of people....no borders