Brexit hits speed bump as court rules lawmakers must get say

[jpinx]

It has become very obvious that this thread, and the other one on the same topic, have had their posting pools distilled down to the most argumentative and least compromising of the original pool of posters who were genuinely trying to make sense of the Brexit vote and it's ramifications.  I respectfully suggest that the mods close at least one of these threads because the duplication is tiresome, to say the least. 

[jpinx]

On 04/11/2016 at 6:14 AM, cumgranosalum said:

It was advisory - just check the law - it is in black & white....

 

"Cameron stated on more than one occasion "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." - which he had no right to do as the referendum was only advisory and Parliament - not the government are sovereign.

 

"Parliament voted unanimously to hold a referendum" - completely inaccurate several voted against. As the majority of MPs at the ime (anf now ) are remainers maby actually miscalculated and thought it would re-enforce UK in the EU.

 

Democracy is not a simple 2% majority on a one day vote by a mislead electorate - there are  - thank God - safeguards and checks built into any functioning democracy to prevent this sort of thing - why do  you think the referendum was only advisory in the first place?

Factually correct, but begs the question of why did Cameron et al continuously say that the referendum result would be acted on, no matter what the result was.  There was no last-minute surge to vote for Leave, the polls had been too close to call for a considerable time before the actual vote, and again after the vote.  It was a narrow margin, but the turnout was higher than the previous General Election, so the vote can not be ignored or democracy goes out the window for ever. So Cameron really did drop the UK into a huge mess and ran away from his responsibilities, leaving TM to shoulder the burden of sorting it all out.

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I'm sure that is a fascinating read for those political scientists amongst the posters in TV, but the reality is in the 4 or 5 polls I referred to that were taken post referendum and sponsored by government.  All showed that people were satisfied with the result.   References in my much earlier post,,,,,

 

To state that "...anyone who asks for proof is not particularly interested....." is a good demonstration of high-mindedness verging on contempt.  It certainly does nothing to promote an interesting and constructive debate.

"I'm sure that is a fascinating read "

You have confirmed the point - just not interested.

[jpinx]

Just now, sandyf said:

"I'm sure that is a fascinating read "

You have confirmed the point - just not interested.

The "point" was there were no indications after the referendum to show any deviation from the the Exit vote.

 

Your point might have been to rub my nose in some report that analyses the vote in excruciating detail, ad nauseum , but I actually covered the post-referendum polls way back near the beginning of this thread.

 

As I said before - the Mods would do us all a favour if they close one or both of these threads which have descended into repetition and abuse.

[dick dasterdly]

11 hours ago, Loeilad said:

People were lied to..the referendum was advisory and now the majority want to remain

Need it has no plan and is impossible.  It will eventually  be scrapped in one way or another ...in 5 years the Brexiteers will realise that all they achieved was a period if chaos and damage to every single person in the UK

Re. the majority now want to remain - it seems a bit unlikely to me as (so far) few if any in the UK have been affected yet by the referendum result.

 

They are likely to be affected in the future one way or another, but meanwhile its mainly 'expats' receiving a Brit. pension that are affected rather than those living in the UK?

[jpinx]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Re. the majority now want to remain - it seems a bit unlikely to me as (so far) few if any in the UK have been affected yet by the referendum result.

 

They are likely to be affected in the future one way or another, but meanwhile its mainly 'expats' receiving a Brit. pension that are affected rather than those living in the UK?

It's a valid idea - to restrict the discussion to the effect of Brexit on expats in Thailand.  It might even stop some of the amazingly contorted attempts to keep an argument alive long after the audience have left

 

Would Expat pensions in Thailand be better served by an Independent UK?  Wasn't the appeal to Brussels overturned? Maybe an appeal to the UK supreme court would produce a result that would ensure that all pensioners are treated equally.

[dick dasterdly]

34 minutes ago, jpinx said:

It has become very obvious that this thread, and the other one on the same topic, have had their posting pools distilled down to the most argumentative and least compromising of the original pool of posters who were genuinely trying to make sense of the Brexit vote and it's ramifications.  I respectfully suggest that the mods close at least one of these threads because the duplication is tiresome, to say the least. 

Whilst I agree that threads on brexit turn into the same 'arguments' regardless of the actual topic heading - the problem is that if there is only one thread, it only takes a couple of posters to close a thread down by annoying the mods enough attacking each other.

 

And so, there would then be zero threads.  Having said this, its likely that a new thread would be opened about a new published opinion/event etc. and so the same arguments would start over.

 

Regardless, better (IMO) to have at least a couple of threads on which to discuss brexit/EU.

[jpinx]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Whilst I agree that threads on brexit turn into the same 'arguments' regardless of the actual topic heading - the problem is that if there is only one thread, it only takes a couple of posters to close a thread down by annoying the mods enough attacking each other.

 

And so, there would then be zero threads.  Having said this, its likely that a new thread would be opened about a new published opinion/event etc. and so the same arguments would start over.

 

Regardless, better (IMO) to have at least a couple of threads on which to discuss brexit/EU.

two barrels of buckshot are better than a single sniper? 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, jpinx said:

It's a valid idea - to restrict the discussion to the effect of Brexit on expats in Thailand.  It might even stop some of the amazingly contorted attempts to keep an argument alive long after the audience have left

 

Would Expat pensions in Thailand be better served by an Independent UK?  Wasn't the appeal to Brussels overturned? Maybe an appeal to the UK supreme court would produce a result that would ensure that all pensioners are treated equally.

Restricting the discussion to expats would be better served by starting a topic in the Home forum?

 

But I doubt this would be allowed as it is being discussed in this forum!

 

A catch 22, which is why I (personally) prefer to have a couple of threads open.  Yes, the same arguments are repeated in both - but better than having zero threads on the subject.

[Laughing Gravy]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 1:53 PM, dick dasterdly said:

A bit odd as the deficit/borrowing has been increasing over the last decade - and yet now the predicted deficit is down to brexit....

How so true. The brexit profiteering. I have stopped trying to reason with some posters. They are blaming anything on Brexit and it hasn't even happened yet. I guess some people like to live in fear and look at everything with the mentality 'the glass is half empty'. What else I find quite amusing, is the pitch of, well we know the EU isn't perfect or even crap, but we need to stay in it because, well we are all European now and share the same culture and values. Absolute tosh. The upcoming elections in various countries will demonstrate this with the populist uprising. The French, Dutch  and Germans and the rest of the EU states are not all the same. The only ones who believes this agenda, is the Brussels unelected, democratic commission.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Re. the majority now want to remain - it seems a bit unlikely to me as (so far) few if any in the UK have been affected yet by the referendum result.

 

They are likely to be affected in the future one way or another, but meanwhile its mainly 'expats' receiving a Brit. pension that are affected rather than those living in the UK?

"it seems a bit unlikely to me as (so far) few if any in the UK have been affected yet by the referendum result. "

 

Tell that to those that feel unwelcome and intimidated.

[Loeilad]

never mind "speed bump" - The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal, especially when you get a comments like this from inside te Brexit government office.

 

David Davis's own advisor says Brexit is a 'dead weight' that carries a 'permanent cost' of 1.2% UK GDP

[Khun Han]

33 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

never mind "speed bump" - The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal, especially when you get a comments like this from inside te Brexit government office.

 

David Davis's own advisor says Brexit is a 'dead weight' that carries a 'permanent cost' of 1.2% UK GDP

 

"The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal"

 

In your dreams.

[Loeilad]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

"The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal"

 

In your dreams.

My dream your nightmare------you don't seem to realise what is going to happen in 5 years time , you won't know we've left - thew situation will either be that Brexit was scrapped or the nearest thing to that will be in place. Brexit is a lame duck and soon to become a dead horse......I know it's hard for some to admit they made a really bad decision to get into bed with the racists and the far right, but their policies will inevitably implode and you'll just have to get used to it.

[Loeilad]

That "speed bump" just gets bigger and bigger........

 

Nigel Farage's Brexit march on Supreme Court cancelled amid claims it might be hijacked by far right groups

 

Let's face it Brexit is revealing its true self - a vehicle for the far right, racists and fascists.

[dick dasterdly]

On 11/26/2016 at 4:01 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

How so true. The brexit profiteering. I have stopped trying to reason with some posters. They are blaming anything on Brexit and it hasn't even happened yet. I guess some people like to live in fear and look at everything with the mentality 'the glass is half empty'. What else I find quite amusing, is the pitch of, well we know the EU isn't perfect or even crap, but we need to stay in it because, well we are all European now and share the same culture and values. Absolute tosh. The upcoming elections in various countries will demonstrate this with the populist uprising. The French, Dutch  and Germans and the rest of the EU states are not all the same. The only ones who believes this agenda, is the Brussels unelected, democratic commission.

We'll find out soon enough - thank god as I can't be the only one that is getting fed up with opinions on what is 'going to happen'!

[dick dasterdly]

23 hours ago, Loeilad said:

never mind "speed bump" - The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal, especially when you get a comments like this from inside te Brexit government office.

 

David Davis's own advisor says Brexit is a 'dead weight' that carries a 'permanent cost' of 1.2% UK GDP

That's suprising when the majority of MPs wanted to 'remain'?  Not to mention big business and financial institutions that were even more vociferous to remain?

 

There should be a separate subject on how this affects 'expats', but it won't be allowed as there are topics on the 'World' forum.

 

Safe to say I think, that us 'expats' in Thailand have suffered the worst and even if the Brit. govt. decides to rejoin the EU - the exchange rate will still be stuck close to where it is now.

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

"The pressure is mounting to scrap the whole deal"

 

In your dreams.

To be fair, I'm sure financial institutions and most MPs are doing their best to come up with a way to present 'A NEW DEAL' - even though nothing has changed.

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, Loeilad said:

That "speed bump" just gets bigger and bigger........

 

Nigel Farage's Brexit march on Supreme Court cancelled amid claims it might be hijacked by far right groups

 

Let's face it Brexit is revealing its true self - a vehicle for the far right, racists and fascists.

OK... And that opinion is precisely why the brexit vote happened....

[Grouse]

On 14/11/2016 at 4:19 PM, Scott said:

Posts containing a slur have been removed and suspensions will be issued.   The topic is about Brexit.   If you are done discussing then move on.   Trolling is not permitted. 

 

It would bounce back back very quickly IMHO

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

It would bounce back back very quickly IMHO

.  One of these days I may be biased enough to use the same tactic!

[Grouse]

28 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

OK... And that opinion is precisely why the brexit vote happened....

 

I think we should agree that people voted leave for several reasons. Some of the reasons being valid and some not.

 

In no particular order:-

 

1) Sovereignty

 

2) Xenophobia

 

3) Excessive migration

 

4) Jobs 

 

5) EU imposed laws

 

6) Desire to open world markets

 

7) Escape employment regs

 

8) Stop payments to Brussels

 

People voted for some but possibly not all.

 

It is true that right wing racists tended to vote leave

 

I believe a significant proportion were numpties (people who voted with inadequate information to make an informed decision)

 

Roughly half the country want to remain. Leave won but it was not a landslide.

 

We need a sensible way forward

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

.  One of these days I may be biased enough to use the same tactic!

 

I don't understand your point

 

IMHO, Sterling would bounce back quickly if Brexit was abandoned. What bias is that?

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I think we should agree that people voted leave for several reasons. Some of the reasons being valid and some not.

 

In no particular order:-

 

1) Sovereignty

 

2) Xenophobia

 

3) Excessive migration

 

4) Jobs 

 

5) EU imposed laws

 

6) Desire to open world markets

 

7) Escape employment regs

 

8) Stop payments to Brussels

 

People voted for some but possibly not all.

 

It is true that right wing racists tended to vote leave

 

I believe a significant proportion were numpties (people who voted with inadequate information to make an informed decision)

 

Roughly half the country want to remain. Leave won but it was not a landslide.

 

We need a sensible way forward

If you'd have left it at the first sentence, I'd have agreed with you.

 

The rest is largely propaganda - with which most of us are tired.

[dick dasterdly]

7 hours ago, Loeilad said:

That "speed bump" just gets bigger and bigger........

 

Nigel Farage's Brexit march on Supreme Court cancelled amid claims it might be hijacked by far right groups

 

Let's face it Brexit is revealing its true self - a vehicle for the far right, racists and fascists.

And many poor people (or those who sympathise with them) that have seen salaries/wages going down whilst those in the top sector have been increasing.

 

In other words "the far right, racists and fascists" is not only far from the truth - it also explains why so many uneducated and poor people voted for brexit as they have had enough of being told that they're "far right, racist and fascist" if they disagree with what is happening....

[dick dasterdly]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I don't understand your point

 

IMHO, Sterling would bounce back quickly if Brexit was abandoned. What bias is that?

You replied to a deleted post and yet your reply was not deleted.  Hence my comment.

 

Personally, I think sterling wouldn't bounce back to its previous level if the Brit. govt. declared that the brexit vote was null and void and we were part of the EU again.  Edit - the opinion would be 'weak government'.

 

But again, its all opinion.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

If you'd have left it at the first sentence, I'd have agreed with you.

 

The rest is largely propaganda - with which most of us are tired.

 

I have actually heard all these reasons quoted. How can that be propaganda? I don't understand your point....

[HauptmannUK]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

And many poor people (or those who sympathise with them) that have seen salaries/wages going down whilst those in the top sector have been increasing.

 

In other words "the far right, racists and fascists" is not only far from the truth - it also explains why so many uneducated and poor people voted for brexit as they have had enough of being told that they're "far right, racist and fascist" if they disagree with what is happening....

I think many poor and uneducated are racist, but not necessarily fascist or far right.  The reason that they are rascist is because its the poor who always bear the brunt of immigration - whether it be competition for employment or accommodation.  Really its understandable and is one of the big downsides of EU membership.  Obviously its not been helped by some employers litterally 'gorging' on cheap labour (e.g. advertising jobs only in Eastern Europe and not in the UK - I believe one or two companies did this).

However, I really don't believe Brexit will resolve this issue.  The UK has a history of drawing in 'cheap labour' and I don't think government post-Brexit will put a stop to it.  There will be a work-around via visas, work permits etc etc.

Post-Brexit I don't see the gap between rich and poor narrowing.  In fact I think it will widen.  The UK will probably become more like the US, with a loosening of workplace regulation and reduced holiday and sick leave allowances, especially for the lower paid.

 

I have just come back from a visit to the French and German offices of the company I work for (a tech company headquartered in US, but with operations in UK, France, Germany and China).  The senior management in our UK office office earn quite a bit more than their counterparts in France and Germany. On the other hand the lower paid workers in France and Germany earn a fair bit more than their UK counterparts.  In other words the 'gap' is much bigger in the UK.  Also the UK lower paid staff get only four weeks annual holiday, whereas in France they get seven weeks and six in Germany - same as the senior grades.  Senior grades in UK get five or six weeks, depending on role.

One thing that is very apparent is that grade-for-grade our employees in France and Germany enjoy a better lifestyle.  I would say its particularly noticable that whilst our younger engineers in the UK are 'stuggling' (high rent/mortgage and relatively low wages) their counterparts in Germany are far better off and mostly seem to be driving fairly smart new cars and living in nice apartments.  I am desperately trying to get transferred to Germany (I worked there in the past and had a great time) - UK operations are being wound down post-Brexit.  83 staff leave on Voluntary Severence on 23rd December. Pretty sure if its a Hard Brexit that it'll be shut down - this from our CFO.  This is the kind of news you'll hear a lot more of over the next couple of years.

[Khun Han]

On 11/27/2016 at 1:23 PM, Loeilad said:

My dream your nightmare------you don't seem to realise what is going to happen in 5 years time , you won't know we've left - thew situation will either be that Brexit was scrapped or the nearest thing to that will be in place. Brexit is a lame duck and soon to become a dead horse......I know it's hard for some to admit they made a really bad decision to get into bed with the racists and the far right, but their policies will inevitably implode and you'll just have to get used to it.

 

Along with the failed financial scaremongering, this post pretty much sums up the remain campaign, why it failed, and why it will always fail in the future.

[SheungWan]

So much for the law: 'UKIP says its official policy is now to reject the Article 50 process.'