Chernobyl shelter begins move toward reactor

[webfact]

Chernobyl shelter begins move toward reactor 

 

MOSCOW (AP) — A gargantuan arch-shaped shelter has begun creeping toward the exploded Chernobyl nuclear reactor, in what represents a significant step toward liquidating the remains of the world's worst nuclear accident.

 

When the shelter is in place, work can begin on dismantling the so-called sarcophagus surrounding the reactor building to contain fallout from the explosion 30 years ago.

 

The shelter, 275 meters wide and 108 meters (843 feet wide, 354 feet tall), began moving Monday by a system of hydraulic jacks, according to the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, which led the 1.5 billion-euro ($1.6 billion) project.

 

The Chernobyl explosion spewed a cloud of fallout over much of Europe and left large swaths of Ukraine and Belarus uninhabitable.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-11-15

[craigt3365]

This has been a huge worry for many years.  If the existing dome collapses, it will be worse than the initial disaster...or so I was told.  We'll keep our fingers crossed.

 

Why isn't Russia helping to fund this?  Hmmmm....

[Morch]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

This has been a huge worry for many years.  If the existing dome collapses, it will be worse than the initial disaster...or so I was told.  We'll keep our fingers crossed.

 

Why isn't Russia helping to fund this?  Hmmmm....

 

I think they are partially funding, but don't know how partial is partial:

 

Quote

The initiative for the establishment of the CSF has been led by G7 governments, the European Commission and Ukraine and was announced at the 1997 G7 summit in Denver. The following countries are contributors to CSF: Austria, Belgium, Canada, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Russia, Spain, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States.

 

Besides member countries, the following countries made donation: Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Croatia, Estonia, Hungary, Iceland, India, Israel, South Korea, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Portugal, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia and Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Shelter_Fund#Foundation_and_Members

 

More details on this project can be found here

[webfact]

 

[craigt3365]

It's amazing how much of an impact this is still having on Ukraine and Belarus.  I think Belarus was hit even harder by this.  As was Russia.  The full impact will never be known.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

It's amazing how much of an impact this is still having on Ukraine and Belarus.  I think Belarus was hit even harder by this.  As was Russia.  The full impact will never be known.

 

Aye, and then we have Fukushima leaking on the other side of the globe. Can't believe people actually talking about nuclear "tactical" strikes after getting a glimpse of this.

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Aye, and then we have Fukushima leaking on the other side of the globe. Can't believe people actually talking about nuclear "tactical" strikes after getting a glimpse of this.

Visiting Chernobyl for a few days was one of the most bizarre, surreal, incredible trip I've ever made.  And I've made quite a few interesting trips.  Yes, makes you change your mind about a lot of things.

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

It's amazing how much of an impact this is still having on Ukraine and Belarus.  I think Belarus was hit even harder by this.  As was Russia.  The full impact will never be known.

It's amazing to see pictures of this place after the disaster and anyone who hasn't yet should take a long hard look. 

 

A real Ghost Town if ever there was one. A large city with streets and parks and yet nobody living there or around. Apartments left with windows open and appliances like TV's, furniture, cups, plates, books, and bedding all left where they lay. Cars, Trucks, and even Helicopters and Cargo Ships left where they were last parked. 

 

Surprisingly not all Ukrainians moved away. Some said they had no other place to go and stayed farming. I guess this is where the 3 legged chicken comes from? Heard KFC bought quite a few of these chickens for the extra Hot Wings.  Needless to say the Cancer Rate was extremely high in that area but some survived. But not surprisingly, and over time, not that many did.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Aye, and then we have Fukushima leaking on the other side of the globe. Can't believe people actually talking about nuclear "tactical" strikes after getting a glimpse of this.

Yes! The Dooms Day Clock keeps ticking away. The sad fact is that once you build a Nuclear Power Plant and pay for the high initial cost, producing electricity after that is very cheap for many years to come.

 

Nuclear Power Plants are also very clean plants (baring a disaster) compared to conventional ones like Oil or Coal Fired. You also don't have a limit on how many Nuclear Power Plants you can build as you don't need to have your own Natural Resources like Coal, Natural Gas, or Oil, to drive them, so no need for importing them either. 

 

So it is easy to understand why a country like Japan, which has huge energy requirements, would go for Nuclear Power Plants over any other type. But the stakes are high when it comes to these type of plants to and as Japan has recently learnt. 

 

Maybe if they could build them in some mountain somewhere and 2 kilometers down in some mine shaft, with steel doors that slam shut in and emergency, and tons of concrete poured on down the mining shaft automatically then they might be safe then. Well I guess safe as long as you didn't work there. But then they would be cheap energy anymore either. Hum???

[daveAustin]

^^ Wouldn't work, they have to be very near a big water source for the constant cooling of the steam condensate... I think.

[katana]

9 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Yes! The Dooms Day Clock keeps ticking away. The sad fact is that once you build a Nuclear Power Plant and pay for the high initial cost, producing electricity after that is very cheap for many years to come.

 

Nuclear Power Plants are also very clean plants (baring a disaster) compared to conventional ones like Oil or Coal Fired. You also don't have a limit on how many Nuclear Power Plants you can build as you don't need to have your own Natural Resources like Coal, Natural Gas, or Oil, to drive them, so no need for importing them either. 

 

So it is easy to understand why a country like Japan, which has huge energy requirements, would go for Nuclear Power Plants over any other type. But the stakes are high when it comes to these type of plants to and as Japan has recently learnt. 

 

Maybe if they could build them in some mountain somewhere and 2 kilometers down in some mine shaft, with steel doors that slam shut in and emergency, and tons of concrete poured on down the mining shaft automatically then they might be safe then. Well I guess safe as long as you didn't work there. But then they would be cheap energy anymore either. Hum???

What about the vast costs for decommissioning the plants at the end of their lives and storing the spent fuel for centuries to come until it's decayed?

Somehow these are always ring-fenced off from the operating costs and left for the Government ie tax payers to pick up the tab.

[GOLDBUGGY]

4 hours ago, katana said:

What about the vast costs for decommissioning the plants at the end of their lives and storing the spent fuel for centuries to come until it's decayed?

Somehow these are always ring-fenced off from the operating costs and left for the Government ie tax payers to pick up the tab.

You make a valid point. But on the other hand how many Nuclear Power Plants do you know of that have been decommissioned.

 

Even 3 Mile Island Nuclear Plant, that had a significant accident in Reactor 2 in 1979 has not be decommissioned and Reactor 1 is still running today. Mind you they had to remove the Reactor Core their for 2 and it was shut down, but only because of the Melt Down. Otherwise these Power Plants can run for many years with only replacement of the fuel cells.  This is one reason why they are so economical. Cheap fuel compared to others and they last a very long time. 

[craigt3365]

14 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

It's amazing to see pictures of this place after the disaster and anyone who hasn't yet should take a long hard look. 

 

A real Ghost Town if ever there was one. A large city with streets and parks and yet nobody living there or around. Apartments left with windows open and appliances like TV's, furniture, cups, plates, books, and bedding all left where they lay. Cars, Trucks, and even Helicopters and Cargo Ships left where they were last parked. 

 

Surprisingly not all Ukrainians moved away. Some said they had no other place to go and stayed farming. I guess this is where the 3 legged chicken comes from? Heard KFC bought quite a few of these chickens for the extra Hot Wings.  Needless to say the Cancer Rate was extremely high in that area but some survived. But not surprisingly, and over time, not that many did.  

Here's one lady who moved back.  Many were forcibly removed right after the disaster, though most weren't told of the significance of the problem and have either perished or are severely suffering today.  This lady was a teacher and wrote a poem for us.  Super cool.  Grows her own food.  I (nervously) ate some of her strawberries!  Several in our group refused to do so.

 

It's a highly secure area and few live inside the exclusion zone.

[Morch]

And in other news...

 

Philippine govt warned high risk for revival of Bataan nuclear power plant in Philippines

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/953889-philippine-govt-warned-high-risk-for-revival-of-bataan-nuclear-power-plant-in-philippines/

[katana]

8 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

12 hours ago, katana said:

What about the vast costs for decommissioning the plants at the end of their lives and storing the spent fuel for centuries to come until it's decayed?

Somehow these are always ring-fenced off from the operating costs and left for the Government ie tax payers to pick up the tab.

You make a valid point. But on the other hand how many Nuclear Power Plants do you know of that have been decommissioned.

 

Even 3 Mile Island Nuclear Plant, that had a significant accident in Reactor 2 in 1979 has not be decommissioned and Reactor 1 is still running today. Mind you they had to remove the Reactor Core their for 2 and it was shut down, but only because of the Melt Down. Otherwise these Power Plants can run for many years with only replacement of the fuel cells.  This is one reason why they are so economical. Cheap fuel compared to others and they last a very long time. 

There's a large list here of decommissioned reactors.
From the linked Wikipedia article:
Most nuclear plants currently operating in the United States were designed for a life of about 30–40 years. So there are lots more coming to the end of their lives at present which were built in the 1960s, 70s & 80s etc.
Some examples of costs. The current estimate by the United Kingdom's Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is that it will cost at least £100 billion to decommission the 19 existing United Kingdom nuclear sites.
Fukushima Dai-ichi alone is estimated at $100 billion which shows the extra costs when things go wrong.
In France, decommissioning of Brennilis Nuclear Power Plant, a fairly small 70 MW power plant, already cost €480 million (20x the estimate costs) and is still pending after 20 years. Despite the huge investments in securing the dismantlement, radioactive elements such as plutonium, caesium-137 and cobalt-60 leaked out into the surrounding lake.
I guess decommissioning is an unknown science really since ours is the first generation to have to deal with it. They're constantly encountering new problems and costs are spiralling.

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, katana said:

There's a large list here of decommissioned reactors.
From the linked Wikipedia article:
Most nuclear plants currently operating in the United States were designed for a life of about 30–40 years. So there are lots more coming to the end of their lives at present which were built in the 1960s, 70s & 80s etc.
Some examples of costs. The current estimate by the United Kingdom's Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is that it will cost at least £100 billion to decommission the 19 existing United Kingdom nuclear sites.
Fukushima Dai-ichi alone is estimated at $100 billion which shows the extra costs when things go wrong.
In France, decommissioning of Brennilis Nuclear Power Plant, a fairly small 70 MW power plant, already cost €480 million (20x the estimate costs) and is still pending after 20 years. Despite the huge investments in securing the dismantlement, radioactive elements such as plutonium, caesium-137 and cobalt-60 leaked out into the surrounding lake.
I guess decommissioning is an unknown science really since ours is the first generation to have to deal with it. They're constantly encountering new problems and costs are spiralling.

Yes, I totally agree with what you are saying. I think also that most people here would agree that we are not ready to handle this type of Power Generation even though we are constantly told it is safe. It is not safe and we don't have a good plan to handle these Nuclear Power Plant Decommissioning. 

 

The idea of cheap clean power generation is appealing to everyone. We have ways now but it is anything but cheap. Other than Hydro Power, which they have run out of laces to put these sites.

 

On the larger scale it is also not even feasible. Using every bit of Corn grown in the world would not even provide fuel that is needed just for the USA in Ethanol. Nuclear Energy on the other hand can do this. It is just not safe and decommissioning, as you have proved, is not cheap either. Maybe one day before I am gone they will find a way. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Here's one lady who moved back.  Many were forcibly removed right after the disaster, though most weren't told of the significance of the problem and have either perished or are severely suffering today.  This lady was a teacher and wrote a poem for us.  Super cool.  Grows her own food.  I (nervously) ate some of her strawberries!  Several in our group refused to do so.

 

It's a highly secure area and few live inside the exclusion zone.

Great Photo! Maybe the Old Guy I saw in a photo riding the tractor and refused to move was her husband? They lived just outside of the exclusive zone although not far enough away to be safe. 

 

From what I saw the exclusive zone was still being guarded by a Road Block and Military Police. Not sure what they did wrong to end up with that job but anyway only under special permission could someone enter this zone. The person who's picture I saw had special permission from the Minister and had to carry a Radiation Detector on her all the time. Anywhere near the Power Plant sent the reading into the Red Zone and out of scale. 

 

This person was however allowed to enter some parts of the city. Surprisingly the places that faced the power plant still had the highest reading but other areas facing another direction were safe enough to enter. But to live there long term was not safe. The city is a ghost town and probably will never be safe to live in again for centuries. So you can't really blame someone for not wanting a Nuclear Power Plant next to their home.  

 

Don't quote me on this but I seem to recall that I read someplace that something like 200 people moved back into the area. Of that group many died of cancer and only a number in the teens survived. Now I heard that this number is down to only a few, like this old lady, but many were old so it is hard to tell what they died from. What I do know for sure is the that rent there is cheap! Dirt Cheap! 

 

 

[craigt3365]

There are 2 exclusion zones.  10km and 30km.  She lives inside the 10km zone.  Walks to get supplies and these visits by tourists really help her.  We brought supplies for her.  Hard walks for her in the winter!  No husband.  What a sweetheart.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#10-kilometre_and_30-kilometre_Zones

 

The 2 zones are heavily guarded.  But people still sneak in.  To steal stuff, etc.  We had to have radiation detectors also.  I forget what the reading was when we were right next to the reactor, but it was insane.  We were only allowed to be there for a minute, and have to wear long sleeve shirts and long pants.  No messing around as guards were watching us.  There are hot spots all over the place.  One section of dirt was OK, 1 meter away, something was obviously there as the meter would go crazy.

 

We got to go into the city, but did so illegally.  All tours groups have to do this now after a building collapsed.  But, we went all over these old, falling apart, abandoned buildings.  Very weird. 

 

My buddy has some great pics from his trip there, about 3 weeks after mine.

http://globalgaz.com/photos-from-chernobyl/

 

A pic of me leaving and being checked for radiation.  We had a government rep with us the whole time.  Got to eat in the cafe in the 10km exclusion zone and spent the night at a hotel inside the 30km zone.  The beer tasted OK. LOL

 

One pic shows the reading near the reactor.  Another is a very hot spot on the ground, the super high one was near the equipment that was used during the first few weeks after the disaster.  The guide didn't even want to stand there very long. Then me going through the machine to make sure I'm not glowing! LOL

[Scott]

Well, I must admit you do have a certain glow about you.  

[craigt3365]

11 minutes ago, Scott said:

Well, I must admit you do have a certain glow about you.  

Well, my wife says my hair is growing back.  Due to this visit? LOL

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

There are 2 exclusion zones.  10km and 30km.  She lives inside the 10km zone.  Walks to get supplies and these visits by tourists really help her.  We brought supplies for her.  Hard walks for her in the winter!  No husband.  What a sweetheart.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#10-kilometre_and_30-kilometre_Zones

 

The 2 zones are heavily guarded.  But people still sneak in.  To steal stuff, etc.  We had to have radiation detectors also.  I forget what the reading was when we were right next to the reactor, but it was insane.  We were only allowed to be there for a minute, and have to wear long sleeve shirts and long pants.  No messing around as guards were watching us.  There are hot spots all over the place.  One section of dirt was OK, 1 meter away, something was obviously there as the meter would go crazy.

 

We got to go into the city, but did so illegally.  All tours groups have to do this now after a building collapsed.  But, we went all over these old, falling apart, abandoned buildings.  Very weird. 

 

My buddy has some great pics from his trip there, about 3 weeks after mine.

http://globalgaz.com/photos-from-chernobyl/

 

A pic of me leaving and being checked for radiation.  We had a government rep with us the whole time.  Got to eat in the cafe in the 10km exclusion zone and spent the night at a hotel inside the 30km zone.  The beer tasted OK. LOL

 

One pic shows the reading near the reactor.  Another is a very hot spot on the ground, the super high one was near the equipment that was used during the first few weeks after the disaster.  The guide didn't even want to stand there very long. Then me going through the machine to make sure I'm not glowing! LOL

Sounds like you went on a very interesting tour.

 

I didn't even know they had those, but I suspected that with people living their you would be able to go so far at least. Maybe all world leaders should be forced to take this trip also and see what can happen first hand and when things go wrong. Have some of the Old Woman's Borscht Soup while they were at it. 

 

Must be a hell of a walk to the first store there for that Old Woman. Just wondering how far out you were before you started to pick something on your Radiation Detector? I suppose it starts inside the 10 km exclusive zone.

 

The only feeling I can describe looking at picture of this place is "Eerie".  

[craigt3365]

I've traveled extensively.  89 countries so far and many crazy adventures.  This was probably the best.  Though had to compare it with the Galapagos, Kilimanjaro, TransSiberian, etc.  Completely different.  Eye opening.

 

Many work inside the exclusion zones, but few live there.  Workers are rotated in and out.

 

Yes, hell of a walk for the old lady, but she wanted to live in the house her parents built.  Hard to argue with that. 

 

they say you get as much radiation on this tour as you do on a trip across the Atlantic.  I guess...