Thailand: 8 Killed, 13 Injured in One Day in 3 Separate Traffic Accidents

[kannot]

On 11/21/2016 at 11:35 AM, transam said:

Yep, even where I am I rarely see a traffic cop, and there are zillions of them...So, where are they, why isn't there commanding officers giving out tasks daily to the troops...

 

Any idiot can see folk will do what they like if there is no officialdom loitering out there to nab 'em.....

they  have  to  go  round  collecting  the  1000 baht a   month  red  box  money

[kannot]

6 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

But, you have to consider if cutting corners and driving against what you ASSUME is the traffic flow (and may not be in Thailand) contribute to accidents when ALL the locals and some expats actually understand is the normal way of driving here and thus are not a surprise, it is just accepted as the way to drive.

 

You can't bring your supposedly highly regulated your overseas driving experience here and expect it to be the same.

 

The high death toll here is mostly due to Drink and Driving especially for motorcyclists. But the police are getting better at stopping and checking people, so that should improve matters.

 

 

 

so  youll include  blind  bend  overtaking also?

[kannot]

On 11/29/2016 at 8:52 AM, Loeilad said:

What you are indulging here is confirmation bias - it is not critical thinking it is based on prejudices - amongst which are race and perceptions of superiority.

in fact the incidents you describe can be found in ALL countries, they are not evidence that Thai drivers are racially stupid or subject to fate, luck or divine intervention anymore than anyone else.

 

in a similar post it was claimed that the tragedies of cyclists killed in Thailand is some kind of proof about Thailand not only is this flying in the face of common sense it ignores such things as  the 21,000 cyclists injured or killed in the Uk.......

Looking at individual incidents and allowing confirmation bias to take over only clouds your judgement and leads to  misconceptions about any topic.

But  how good  are Thailand reporting of figures, theyre  very easy to get for the UK

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by kannot

[yardrunner]

On 12/1/2016 at 8:36 AM, Loeilad said:

How is that "grammar"?

i think you are now reducing the arguyment to a ridiculous level - my guess is it is because you don't actually understand what is going on?

Yes i understand what is going on, but whatever information is posted you say cant accept that because it is anecdotal, if you follow your logic then the first world war, the second world war and the holocaust cannot be proved to have happened because the evidence for these events is mainly anecdotal

[maewang99]

it's not going to get better probably.  in the USA we also have more deaths and injuries because of cell phone use.

and the way folks drive here.... they drive as if they are not even bothering to Always Maintain At Least One Out.  instead the focus is on nonsense such as speeding and drinking, although the latter surely is an issue here but talking, any kind of talking, and being sleepy detracts from Always Having At Least One Out as well... and if you ain't got At Least One Out, when you need it, it don't make ANY difference at all how sober or slow you were driving, 90% most of the time. but if you add drinking or speeding to Not Always Having An One Out or More.... then there is a really big problem. eh?

 

 

 

    


 

Edited December 2, 2016 by maewang99

[brling]

10 hours ago, oldlakey said:

 

Hopefully you are now beginning to understand how difficult it is to defend the indefensible

 

 NO, the apologists will never understand, and will defend the indefensible. If you quote "road traffic death stats.  you will be a Thai basher.

[Loeilad]

6 hours ago, yardrunner said:

Yes i understand what is going on, but whatever information is posted you say cant accept that because it is anecdotal, if you follow your logic then the first world war, the second world war and the holocaust cannot be proved to have happened because the evidence for these events is mainly anecdotal

I think you have a real problem in identifying, classifying and analysing information...which would account for your bizarre arguments.

[Loeilad]

6 hours ago, maewang99 said:

it's not going to get better probably.  in the USA we also have more deaths and injuries because of cell phone use.

and the way folks drive here.... they drive as if they are not even bothering to Always Maintain At Least One Out.  instead the focus is on nonsense such as speeding and drinking, although the latter surely is an issue here but talking, any kind of talking, and being sleepy detracts from Always Having At Least One Out as well... and if you ain't got At Least One Out, when you need it, it don't make ANY difference at all how sober or slow you were driving, 90% most of the time. but if you add drinking or speeding to Not Always Having An One Out or More.... then there is a really big problem. eh?

 

 

 

    


 

As pointed out that is a totally spurious argument.

[annoogram]

what road rules ??

Sent from my SM-G900I using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[Loeilad]

7 hours ago, yardrunner said:

Yes i understand what is going on, but whatever information is posted you say cant accept that because it is anecdotal, if you follow your logic then the first world war, the second world war and the holocaust cannot be proved to have happened because the evidence for these events is mainly anecdotal

 

 

Anecdotal evidence......

Here is a brief summary of anecdotal evidence - I think you’d find it pretty hard to apply to questioning the existence any recent wars.

 

However I think it is fairly obvious how it has been used on this thread (and others) in the context of road safety. Couple this with confirmation and cognitive bias and the picture becomes skewed to point that it is misleading and worthless.

 

“Evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony.” - ie recounting incidents one has “witnesses” usually partially whilst driving.

- typically someone who picks  only one or two examples to back up a prejudiced premise about driving in Thailand

Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases”“

 

“Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence - Or assumes that a kind of accident only happens in Thailand or more often in Thailand

 

“Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical. This is similar to “hasty generalization” too another informal fallacy. - e.g. someone who think all Fortuner drivers are bad. or that ALL Thai driver are incompetent.

 

[extracts from wiki ]

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Loeilad

[Loeilad]

41 minutes ago, annoogram said:

what road rules ??

Sent from my SM-G900I using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

that is a very valid point! Many foreigners have no idea what the Thai rules of the road are - they just assume they are the same as there home country - wherever that may be.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Loeilad

[MiKT]

12 hours ago, kannot said:

so  youll include  blind  bend  overtaking also?

 

 

Yes, because I expect it and so when it also happened to me in oh so regulated Singapore last week (not for the first time by any means) and several times in Malaysia  last week or the even more regulated UK (as it has many, many times) or any county (and it has happened to me in all of the over 30 countries I have driven in) I am prepared for the unexpected.

 

I don't appreciate and I roundly curse the idiots doing it, but I am not apologizing for Thai driving; and it makes me mad when stupid people use the words "Thai apologist" because I don't like to see pathetic blanket condemnation of driving in Thailand when I KNOW for a FACT that Thai driving is not the worse, despite the death figures. 

 

If you are expect everything here to be the same as your "oh so safe" (555) country you simply are not competent to be out on the roads anywhere and should stick to driving your bath chair on the pavement (although I would not recommend that in Thailand either, I can't remember ever having seen a really flat pavement here).

 

 

 

[MiKT]

8 hours ago, yardrunner said:

Yes i understand what is going on, but whatever information is posted you say cant accept that because it is anecdotal, if you follow your logic then the first world war, the second world war and the holocaust cannot be proved to have happened because the evidence for these events is mainly anecdotal

 

That must rate as one of the most stupid statements I have ever read. What do you do, spend you life reading comics?

 

You are obviously too young to have seen with your own eyes what happened to places like London when they were bombed, Hamburg when 50,000 were killed in one bombing raid or maybe you have never heard of Warsaw, Stalingrad or  Hiroshima,  never visited any of the concentration camps, the Somme, or Verdun or  Kanchanaburi  or Hanoi, or Ho Chi Min city ........................ Anecdotal my arse.

 

 

[yardrunner]

40 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

 

 

Anecdotal evidence......

Here is a brief summary of anecdotal evidence - I think you’d find it pretty hard to apply to questioning the existence any recent wars.

 

However I think it is fairly obvious how it has been used on this thread (and others) in the context of road safety. Couple this with confirmation and cognitive bias and the picture becomes skewed to point that it is misleading and worthless.

 

“Evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony.” - ie recounting incidents one has “witnesses” usually partially whilst driving.

- typically someone who picks  only one or two examples to back up a prejudiced premise about driving in Thailand

Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases”“

 

“Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence - Or assumes that a kind of accident only happens in Thailand or more often in Thailand

 

“Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical. This is similar to “hasty generalization” too another informal fallacy. - e.g. someone who think all Fortuner drivers are bad. or that ALL Thai driver are incompetent.

 

[extracts from wiki ]

 

 

 

Or to quote Winston Churchill their are lies damn lies and statistics, and no i dont think all Thai drivers are incompetent the same as i do not think all Farang drivers are competent especially when i see them riding motorbikes without helmets but i suppose that is anecdotal evidence

[yardrunner]

3 minutes ago, MiKT said:

 

That must rate as one of the most stupid statements I have ever read. What do you do, spend you life reading comics?

 

You are obviously too young to have seen with your own eyes what happened to places like London when they were bombed, Hamburg when 50,000 were killed in one bombing raid or maybe you have never heard of Warsaw, Stalingrad or  Hiroshima,  never visited any of the concentration camps, the Somme, or Verdun or  Kanchanaburi  or Hanoi, or Ho Chi Min city ........................ Anecdotal my arse.

 

 

No i am not to young to have seen the damage that was done in ww2 having played on bomb sites in the early 50s in Sheffield as a young child and have you visited the German cemetry on Cannock Chase, i was trying to make the point that if you will not accept anecdotal evidence then you do not accept that wars have happened and this would be the argument used by holocaust  deniers of which i am not one 

[brling]

58 minutes ago, MiKT said:

 

That must rate as one of the most stupid statements I have ever read. What do you do, spend you life reading comics?

 

 

 

 

 The most stupid statements I have read, are the Thai apologists trying to defend Thai driving. 

[MiKT]

1 hour ago, yardrunner said:

No i am not to young to have seen the damage that was done in ww2 having played on bomb sites in the early 50s in Sheffield as a young child and have you visited the German cemetry on Cannock Chase, i was trying to make the point that if you will not accept anecdotal evidence then you do not accept that wars have happened and this would be the argument used by holocaust  deniers of which i am not one 

 

 

Well, I am sorry, but it seems that you have things back to front, anecdotal evidence can be used as extra and incidental evidence of wars and there is plenty of evidence that the holocaust did indeed happen, the anecdotes of  the survivors or those who liberated the camps or even the guards are simply incidental to the incontestable  physical evidence.

 

I am glad that you cleared up about the holocaust though, because of the evidence of your anecdotes I though that denying it happened was your real agenda.

 

I have presented many anecdotes of my own driving experiences around the world and can back them up with other eyewitness accounts or even photographs and there is plenty of other real evidence that Thai drivers are not the worst in the world, even if Thailand does have a higher death rate than most other countries (that keep proper records which many of the worst countries don't).

 

But, but, but I think the new TV app is doing it to me again and this is going to end up attached to a quote by one "brling".

 

Oh good it did not, now I can reply to him/her/it

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by MiKT

[yardrunner]

7 minutes ago, MiKT said:

 

 

Well, I am sorry, but it seems that you have things back to front, anecdotal evidence can be used as extra and incidental evidence of wars and there is plenty of evidence that the holocaust did indeed happen, the anecdotes of  the survivors or those who liberated the camps or even the guards are simply incidental to the incontestable  physical evidence.

 

I am glad that you cleared up about the holocaust though, because of the evidence of your anecdotes I though that denying it happened was your real agenda.

 

I have presented many anecdotes of my own driving experiences around the world and can back them up with other eyewitness accounts or even photographs and there is plenty of other real evidence that Thai drivers are not the worst in the world, even if Thailand does have a higher death rate than most other countries (that keep proper records which many of the worst countries don't).

 

But, but, but I think the new TV app is doing it to me again and this is going to end up attached to a quote by one "brling".

 

Oh good it did not, now I can reply to him/her

 

 

i agree with you completely, what i was trying to say was that if another poster will not accept anecdotal evidence about driving both good and bad then he should not accept anecdotal evidence about other events,

Their is still a lot of physical evidence about 20th century wars but as time goes on this will become less obvious and in 50 years if someone reads a book about a combatants experience it should still be taken as evidence even if it is anecdotal and not dismissed because the physical evidence has disappeared  

[MiKT]

15 minutes ago, brling said:

 

 The most stupid statements I have read, are the Thai apologists trying to defend Thai driving. 

 

No the most stupid statements are by those who are so ignorant they simply can't understand driving in Thailand is not as bad as many other countries and blab on about "Thai apologists" without having any real idea of what they are talking about.

 

The same for those who blub that the Thai police never do anything to prevent accidents (like enforcing helmet wearing) or Thai road safety engineers do nothing to improve the roads situation, both of which statements are completely untrue and based on simple Thai bashing.

 

But what the same blubbers fail to understand is that Thai's and Indians and Malays and Africans and many other nations simply do not place the same value on stringent adherence to the ever more regulated road traffic management that has become necessary due to density of traffic in more  nannying nations, because they have more urgent priorities to spend their money on. Thus driving in Thailand is actually much easier (and much safer if you know how to drive) than in many other countries.

 

If you want to drink yourself silly and get on your motorbike, you won't be surprised if you wake up dead and be even less surprised that no one will care, not everyone wants to be regulated to death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brling]

3 minutes ago, MiKT said:

 

No the most stupid statements are by those who are so ignorant they simply can't understand driving in Thailand is not as bad as many other countries and blab on about "Thai apologists" without having any real idea of what they are talking about.

 

The same for those who blub that the Thai police never do anything to prevent accidents (like enforcing helmet wearing) or Thai road safety engineers do nothing to improve the roads situation, both of which statements are completely untrue and based on simple Thai bashing.

 

But what the same blubbers fail to understand is that Thai's and Indians and Malays and Africans and many other nations simply do not place the same value on stringent adherence to the ever more regulated road traffic management that has become necessary due to density of traffic in more  nannying nations, because they have more urgent priorities to spend their money on. Thus driving in Thailand is actually much easier (and much safer if you know how to drive) than in many other countries.

 

If you want to drink yourself silly and get on your motorbike, you won't be surprised if you wake up dead and be even less surprised that no one will care, not everyone wants to be regulated to death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The most ignorant fools are the apologists that dont read the Thai road traffic death stats. ie the second worst in the world. Not even the Thai people will try to defend them, only the Thai apologists, and they are farangs. Pathetic.

  

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, brling said:

 

The most ignorant fools are the apologists that dont read the Thai road traffic death stats. ie the second worst in the world. Not even the Thai people will try to defend them, only the Thai apologists, and they are farangs. Pathetic.

  

I don't think you'll find a single "apologist" on this tread - you will find those who don't understand the arguments though. Driving and road safety are not the same - but that doesn't seem to have dawned on many on this thread.

 

and I think it needs reiterating the plural of anecdote is not data.

[MiKT]

9 minutes ago, brling said:

 

The most ignorant fools are the apologists that dont read the Thai road traffic death stats. ie the second worst in the world. Not even the Thai people will try to defend them, only the Thai apologists, and they are farangs. Pathetic.

  

 

Please, please, please, before you continue to make a fool of yourself, look up the word "apologist" in a dictionary. I don't think I have seen one post here that could be called apologising for the number of road deaths in Thailand.

 

Thai's do complain about stupid drivers, but I never heard a Thai complain about people driving on what you might consider to be the "wrong side of the road" or on the pavement, because that is OK here if the situation warrants it.

 

But whilst you are looking in the dictionary, try the word "understanding" and see if you can understand the difference between road death statistics and quality of driving, because although they are related, there are many other factors to be taken into consideration, or is that too difficult for you to assimilate (check out that word as well while you are educating yourself).

 

However, I do know for sure that when the factors relating to the number and quality of roads, number of cars/mororcycles, policing, traffic regulations, etc. are taken into consideration and directly compared, then the number of road deaths per kilometer travelled in other countries will greatly exceed those of Thailand because the quality of driving here is actually better. You love statistics, so check out 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

 

First you will see that according to the WHO Thailand is actually rated at number 15 in the world not number 2 and secondly it lists many of the factors relating to those deaths such as:

 

Half of the world’s road traffic deaths occur among motorcyclists (23%), pedestrians (22%) and cyclists (5%) with only 31% of deaths among car occupants and the remaining 19% among unspecified road users.

 

One very interesting statistic which completely bears out my contention about quality of driving may be simply determined by comparing just one statistic between highly regulated Singapore and according to you the 2nd worst place to drive Thailand.

 

Well Singapore has 20.2 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants and Thailand has 74.6 deaths per 100,000, but Singapore has only about 3,500 km of roads compared to @200,000 km in Thailand. That equates to 1 death per 173 km of road in Singapore, compared to 1 death for 2,680 km of road in Thailand, thus from this statistic alone one would deduce that Thailand roads are 15 times safer than Singapore roads.

 

Apologise your way out of that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldlakey]

4 hours ago, Loeilad said:

that is a very valid point! Many foreigners have no idea what the Thai rules of the road are - they just assume they are the same as there home country - wherever that may be.

Neither do the Thais

[oldlakey]

4 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

 

Yes, because I expect it and so when it also happened to me in oh so regulated Singapore last week (not for the first time by any means) and several times in Malaysia  last week or the even more regulated UK (as it has many, many times) or any county (and it has happened to me in all of the over 30 countries I have driven in) I am prepared for the unexpected.

 

I don't appreciate and I roundly curse the idiots doing it, but I am not apologizing for Thai driving; and it makes me mad when stupid people use the words "Thai apologist" because I don't like to see pathetic blanket condemnation of driving in Thailand when I KNOW for a FACT that Thai driving is not the worse, despite the death figures. 

 

If you are expect everything here to be the same as your "oh so safe" (555) country you simply are not competent to be out on the roads anywhere and should stick to driving your bath chair on the pavement (although I would not recommend that in Thailand either, I can't remember ever having seen a really flat pavement here).

 

 

 

You said

I dont like to see pathetic blanket condemnation of driving in Thailand when I KNOW for a FACT that Thai driving is not the worst, despite the death figures

I say

Even though everybody else thinks  FATHER CHRISTMAS comes to visit every December 25th

I know that he actually comes on February 30th

 

 

[oldlakey]

25 minutes ago, MiKT said:

 

Please, please, please, before you continue to make a fool of yourself, look up the word "apologist" in a dictionary. I don't think I have seen one post here that could be called apologising for the number of road deaths in Thailand.

 

Thai's do complain about stupid drivers, but I never heard a Thai complain about people driving on what you might consider to be the "wrong side of the road" or on the pavement, because that is OK here if the situation warrants it.

 

But whilst you are looking in the dictionary, try the word "understanding" and see if you can understand the difference between road death statistics and quality of driving, because although they are related, there are many other factors to be taken into consideration, or is that too difficult for you to assimilate (check out that word as well while you are educating yourself).

 

However, I do know for sure that when the factors relating to the number and quality of roads, number of cars/mororcycles, policing, traffic regulations, etc. are taken into consideration and directly compared, then the number of road deaths per kilometer travelled in other countries will greatly exceed those of Thailand because the quality of driving here is actually better. You love statistics, so check out 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

 

First you will see that according to the WHO Thailand is actually rated at number 15 in the world not number 2 and secondly it lists many of the factors relating to those deaths such as:

 

Half of the world’s road traffic deaths occur among motorcyclists (23%), pedestrians (22%) and cyclists (5%) with only 31% of deaths among car occupants and the remaining 19% among unspecified road users.

 

One very interesting statistic which completely bears out my contention about quality of driving may be simply determined by comparing just one statistic between highly regulated Singapore and according to you the 2nd worst place to drive Thailand.

 

Well Singapore has 20.2 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants and Thailand has 74.6 deaths per 100,000, but Singapore has only about 3,500 km of roads compared to @200,000 km in Thailand. That equates to 1 death per 173 km of road in Singapore, compared to 1 death for 2,680 km of road in Thailand, thus from this statistic alone one would deduce that Thailand roads are 15 times safer than Singapore roads.

 

Apologise your way out of that!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have got just the thing for you, its a number 6 coal shovel not that you need any help in digging holes for yourself

[oldlakey]

31 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

I don't think you'll find a single "apologist" on this tread - you will find those who don't understand the arguments though. Driving and road safety are not the same - but that doesn't seem to have dawned on many on this thread.

 

and I think it needs reiterating the plural of anecdote is not data.

I, and I honestly believe most other people would welcome an attempt at driving in a safe manner for starters

I know which tread all apologists should be under

[Loeilad]

1 hour ago, oldlakey said:

Neither do the Thais

Looks lie you've run out of things to say? (I wouldn't dignify them with the word argument as you don't seem to have effectively addressed a single issue raised.

If you disgaree, why not put forward a coherent counter argument?

[Loeilad]

It stuns me to see how incredibly blinkered and ego-centric some people are on this thread.....the tragedies occurred on Thai roads and rather than a level-headed debate about road safety and how this might be avoided in the future many posters have decided to ignore the issues and see the issues solely in terms of their own personal driving experiences and how much better they are than everyone else’s in particular Thai people as a nation. They fail completely to set their experiences into a rational context preferring the false syllogism to critical thought

 

They see the issue through a totally selfish lens - that is “I drive a car and this is what I see therefore this is the logical conclusion” - They can’t see this is nonsense..

 

They aren’t even looking at the right things

The problem is road safety - not just driving a car

 

Road safety involves EVERYONE who uses a road - pedestrians, cyclists, animals private and commercial traffic, those living next to roads yet these guys see it just in terms of how they drive a car and their myopic perceptions of how others do. They don’t spare a thought of any other road users at all - only how their privileged lives and ingrained driving habits are affected by what they perceive to be their inferiors.

 

What they need to do is educate themselves on what road safety actually is and then they might get some idea of what is really happening on the road around them - I doubt if it has occurred to them that their over-inflated perception of their own driving ability actually makes them a danger to others on the road - real people that is....  not just idiots but real people with real lives who need to be on the roads too.

 

 

[oldlakey]

7 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

Looks lie you've run out of things to say? (I wouldn't dignify them with the word argument as you don't seem to have effectively addressed a single issue raised.

If you disgaree, why not put forward a coherent counter argument?

My middle name is Succinct, and to the point

 

[oldlakey]

12 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

 

It stuns me to see how incredibly blinkered and ego-centric some people are on this thread.....the tragedies occurred on Thai roads and rather than a level-headed debate about road safety and how this might be avoided in the future many posters have decided to ignore the issues and see the issues solely in terms of their own personal driving experiences and how much better they are than everyone else’s in particular Thai people as a nation. They fail completely to set their experiences into a rational context preferring the false syllogism to critical thought

 

 

They see the issue through a totally selfish lens - that is “I drive a car and this is what I see therefore this is the logical conclusion” - They can’t see this is nonsense..

 

 

They aren’t even looking at the right things

 

The problem is road safety - not just driving a car

 

 

Road safety involves EVERYONE who uses a road - pedestrians, cyclists, animals private and commercial traffic, those living next to roads yet these guys see it just in terms of how they drive a car and their myopic perceptions of how others do. They don’t spare a thought of any other road users at all - only how their privileged lives and ingrained driving habits are affected by what they perceive to be their inferiors.

 

 

What they need to do is educate themselves on what road safety actually is and then they might get some idea of what is really happening on the road around them - I doubt if it has occurred to them that their over-inflated perception of their own driving ability actually makes them a danger to others on the road - real people that is....  not just idiots but real people with real lives who need to be on the roads too.

 

 

 

 

It really must be depressing to be so misunderstood by so many

This will be my last post on this thread as I have nothing further to add

Apart from I will look in from time to time for further updates