The anti-Trump resistance takes shape: 'Government's supposed to fear us'

[ilostmypassword]

 

 

18 minutes ago, Rigby40 said:

No.

Trump's rise was due to the vacuum caused by the Left. People were getting sick and tired of being called a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe, transphobe, islamaphobe, arachnophobe or nazi just for holding moderate conservative values and opinions or just for stating facts. Let's also not forget to take into account economic issues. Additionally, a lot of us saw the smoking gun evidence of failed leftist policies overseas, especially in Western European canary in the coal mine countries. So, you're way off base there mate.

With all due respect, I would strongly suggest you go out and talk to some people who voted for Trump and get their stories first hand, it'll give you some much needed perspective.

 

I remember when I first took an interest in the elections, sometime in 2015. I was very much still a liberal, at one point I was even considering voting for Bernie. But once I was being demonized for holding centrist views or stating simple facts as a liberal, I began considering voting for Trump just to spite the Left. Eventually I really took a liking to Trump because he stood up to all these people.

Essentially, the social justice Left turned me from a huge liberal to a conservative over the course of a couple years and with such poor timing on their part! And I'm not the only one, you can find thousands of people sharing similar stories like this.

Your conversion sound like a likely story. And not at all like concern trolling.

Edited June 16, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[RobFord]

I hear you loud and clear. I was a liberal leaning young man that turned into a angry middle aged man thinking I was paying taxes that were being wasted by a liberal elite etc. Then when I turned fifty ( 14 years ago) I turned back into that liberal. Don't even mind the taxes anymore
Can't explain it but I'm much happier now.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Rigby40]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

 

Your conversion sound like a likely story. And not at all like concern trolling.

I'm just putting my story out there, a story that many others share.

[RobFord]

 
That might be your own take, not mine.
If anything, the post above exemplifies my point. The American public seems to have more and more trouble discussing anything in a rational manner, without resorting to extreme partisan position. And that cuts both ways. There could also be choice words said about cultural changes making it possible for such a caricature of  person such as Trump to be seen as a viable candidate, never mind a President. Goes a ways beyond the political divide, though, so guess it's outside the scope of this sandbox topic.
 
I dunno if the last line was intended as general or personal. If the latter, you're outta line and off mark. If the former, still off mark.
 
 

The last line is intended as personal. It does start with who you want to be.


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[Rigby40]

13 minutes ago, RobFord said:

I hear you loud and clear. I was a liberal leaning young man that turned into a angry middle aged man thinking I was paying taxes that were being wasted by a liberal elite etc. Then when I turned fifty ( 14 years ago) I turned back into that liberal. Don't even mind the taxes anymore
Can't explain it but I'm much happier now.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Fair enough. I'm sure that's not uncommon either.

I've become much more open minded as a conservative and I try to challenge my own beliefs as often as possible, for all I know I could once again become liberal at the age of fifty much like yourself and I'd only be fooling myself if I said that could never happen. I'd like to think it wouldn't but let's see where my pursuit of truth takes me.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Rigby40

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, RobFord said:

 

The last line is intended as personal. It does start with who you want to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Then I'll toss it where it belongs. Thanks.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Rigby40 said:

But once I was being demonized for holding centrist views or stating simple facts as a liberal, I began considering voting for Trump just to spite the Left. Eventually I really took a liking to Trump because he stood up to all these people.

And you fell for all his BS.  He stands up for nobody but himself, as you should know by now. 

 

Sad times in the American Society.  Luckily, a majority now get it and are against Trump.  Many of the hard core supporters seem to be still involved for some type of financial or political reason.  I.E. Once a republican, always a republican.

[thaihome]

3 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

And you fell for all his BS.  He stands up for nobody but himself, as you should know by now. 

 

Sad times in the American Society.  Luckily, a majority now get it and are against Trump.  Many of the hard core supporters seem to be still involved for some type of financial or political reason.  I.E. Once a republican, always a republican.

On the subject of how politics in the US got to be so bitter.  Political attack ads, amplified by partisan media, compounded by living in echo chambers seems to be the most likely reason.

TH 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/upshot/how-we-became-bitter-political-enemies.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

And you fell for all his BS.  He stands up for nobody but himself, as you should know by now. 

 

Sad times in the American Society.  Luckily, a majority now get it and are against Trump.  Many of the hard core supporters seem to be still involved for some type of financial or political reason.  I.E. Once a republican, always a republican.

 

I think that they may "get it" when it comes to Trump. Other than that, nothing much. Doesn't seem there is much by way of proactive efforts to affect real change in traditional politics. IMO, at least to a certain extent, that's one of the underlying reasons which made Trump "possible". Granted that for many his term may act as shock therapy, but doubt if the lessons learned are the right ones. Way I see it those staunchly supporting Trump exhibit one kind of blindness, whereas those opposing him without applying introspection aren't a whole lot better.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, thaihome said:

On the subject of how politics in the US got to be so bitter.  Political attack ads, amplified by partisan media, compounded by living in echo chambers seems to be the most likely reason.

TH 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/upshot/how-we-became-bitter-political-enemies.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

 

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

[craigt3365]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

#1 problem in the US today (and many other countries, Thailand being another good example). One side hates the other and the leaders perpetuate it, to their gain, and the voters loss.  Time for a reset!

 

 

[Andaman Al]

2 hours ago, Rigby40 said:

No.

Trump's rise was due to the vacuum caused by the Left. People were getting sick and tired of being called a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe, transphobe, islamaphobe, arachnophobe or nazi just for holding moderate conservative values and opinions or just for stating facts.

So it's a moderate conservative value to dress up in Nazi uniforms and hold parades is it? It's a moderate conservative value for groups to "pray out the Gay" (one of Pence's only ideas), so the way you and Trump want to make America Great Again is simply to return to the days when you can call blacks ni****s and c**ns whenever you like, call Gays homo's and queer's, touch up 14 year old girls without fear of recrimination, pay women less and more preferred don't allow them to work just keep them in the kitchen and looking after the 8-10 kids you have because it's a sin to waste sperm in the end of a condom. And to throw into your recipe of bigot soup lets put in a handful of discrimination. If they are not white they are blacks, slant eyes, gooks, Jewboys, Yids and every other DISGRACEFUL way our predecessors used to treat other human's. The real way to make America great again is to gather up Trump and all his supporters and throw them in the middle of the Pacific. 

 

The Vacuum was not "caused by the left", the Vacuum was caused by right wing fascists pushing non educated poverty stricken whites into a bigot army that are now currently foot soldiers for Trump and Bannon. I am simply staggered that seemingly educated people such as yourself fall for this utter crap. What Trump does is NOTHING to do with MSM, they just film him talking. Look at HIS interviews and Rallies. He is a lying SOB and if you cannot see that you are lost beyond hope and people like you bear a direct responsibility for the people that will suffer due to this mans sociopathic policies.

 

I will get off the fence now.

[Jingthing]

#1 problem in the US today (and many other countries, Thailand being another good example). One side hates the other and the leaders perpetuate it, to their gain, and the voters loss.  Time for a reset!
 
 

Reset? With trump in office that is impossible.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

#1 problem in the US today (and many other countries, Thailand being another good example). One side hates the other and the leaders perpetuate it, to their gain, and the voters loss.  Time for a reset!

 

 

Indeed. But worth bearing in mind that "resets" come in different shapes and sizes. Not all are an improvement. One reason Trump won was that enough people had similar notions. Call it a reset or call it ending the "status quo" (whatever that means). That they got hoodwinked doesn't change the sentiment, possibly even fueling it some more.

 

If things are to be repaired there needs to be some kind of dialogue, or a basic understanding regarding common goals. Doesn't seem like that's gonna happen any time soon, though.

 

And then there's that guy in Moscow (which regardless if he did meddle in the recent elections)who is probably having a good time watching it all.  

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Reset? With trump in office that is impossible.

 

I would guess that one reason Trump won is that enough people felt the same way about HRC. Granted, Trump is an overkill, and is far more incompetent and obnoxious. But that doesn't change the premise. Leadership, while in power, does not usually encourage digging near the foundations of its authority. If things would have gone the other way, you too (or rather, the side you're for) would disregard Republican/Right wing/Trump supporters point of view.

[Jingthing]

 
I would guess that one reason Trump won is that enough people felt the same way about HRC. Granted, Trump is an overkill, and is far more incompetent and obnoxious. But that doesn't change the premise. Leadership, while in power, does not usually encourage digging near the foundations of its authority. If things would have gone the other way, you too (or rather, the side you're for) would disregard Republican/Right wing/Trump supporters point of view.

What's your point? That it is hopeless?

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What's your point? That it is hopeless?

It might be hopeless without changing mindsets.

 

Granted, Trump is all the things said about him. Fine. But the alternative (read other candidates) weren't much to write home about. Their main allure is that they aren't Trump. That can carry for a while, but it doesn't address the issue, just postpones the next episode. Whether it will make sides come to terms or if each "next episode" would become worse, is anyone's guess. I wouldn't be too optimistic as far as the short run goes.

 

So it's not just a question of "resisting" Trump. But what's to be done post-Trump. And also, let's say the "resistance" will triumph - there are victories and then there are victories. Win while pushing people too far, and things could go badly bigly. End of the day, regardless of popular votes, there are plenty of Americans who voted for Trump (for whatever reason). It's something that can't be ignored by labeling, and can't be dreamed away as a non-issue. Need to come to terms with that. With them.

[RobFord]

It might be hopeless without changing mindsets.
 
Granted, Trump is all the things said about him. Fine. But the alternative (read other candidates) weren't much to write home about. Their main allure is that they aren't Trump. That can carry for a while, but it doesn't address the issue, just postpones the next episode. Whether it will make sides come to terms or if each "next episode" would become worse, is anyone's guess. I wouldn't be too optimistic as far as the short run goes.
 
So it's not just a question of "resisting" Trump. But what's to be done post-Trump. And also, let's say the "resistance" will triumph - there are victories and then there are victories. Win while pushing people too far, and things could go badly bigly. End of the day, regardless of popular votes, there are plenty of Americans who voted for Trump (for whatever reason). It's something that can't be ignored by labeling, and can't be dreamed away as a non-issue. Need to come to terms with that. With them.

I do agree with you this whole underbelly needed to be exposed, but if trump is the tonic I'll take an enema.


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[Morch]

4 minutes ago, RobFord said:

 

I do agree with you this whole underbelly needed to be exposed, but if trump is the tonic I'll take an enema.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Didn't say anything about Trump being a tonic. Trump is toxic and makes things worse. I'm not opposed to "resisting" him, just think that confusing this with the core issues is a mistake.

[Jingthing]

It might be hopeless without changing mindsets.  

Granted, Trump is all the things said about him. Fine. But the alternative (read other candidates) weren't much to write home about. Their main allure is that they aren't Trump. That can carry for a while, but it doesn't address the issue, just postpones the next episode. Whether it will make sides come to terms or if each "next episode" would become worse, is anyone's guess. I wouldn't be too optimistic as far as the short run goes.

 

So it's not just a question of "resisting" Trump. But what's to be done post-Trump. And also, let's say the "resistance" will triumph - there are victories and then there are victories. Win while pushing people too far, and things could go badly bigly. End of the day, regardless of popular votes, there are plenty of Americans who voted for Trump (for whatever reason). It's something that can't be ignored by labeling, and can't be dreamed away as a non-issue. Need to come to terms with that. With them.

 

You're naive. Do you think trumpists are ever going to come to terms with anti trumpists? What annoys me about your POV is suggesting anything close to equivalent badness to trump vs.pretty much anyone else. He's attacking the core structure of our democratic institutions. You act like this is just a more extreme partisan divide. It's much more existential than that. I know you're response. That this is hyperbole. It may be dramatic rhetoric but it may also be true.  History will tell us in any case.

 

 

 

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're naive. Do you think trumpists are ever going to come to terms with anti trumpists? What annoys me about your POV is suggesting anything close to equivalent badness to trump vs.pretty much anyone else. He's attacking the core structure of our democratic institutions. You act like this is just a more extreme partisan divide. It's much more existential than that. I know you're response. That this is hyperbole. It may be dramatic rhetoric but it may also be true.  History will tell us in any case.

 

 

 

 

I don't think that labeling the opposition is helpful. Call that naive if you like. Pretty sure the point could be made without it, which just might leave a chance for a less toxic aftermath. Not sure what you thought my POV suggests, but it isn't what you think. There was no denial of your right to crusade against Trump. There wasn't a suggestion this, by itself, is wrong. My earlier comment was that Trump is a symptom. Symptoms shouldn't be ignored. But addressing symptoms while ignoring underlying causes, well that's asking for another "outbreak" (poor choice of word, being lazy). One reoccurring feature is that merely bringing up the subject of addressing possible mistakes or rethinking the approach taken results in raging responses.

 

Consider Trump is all you say he is. Then consider that a whole lot of American citizens actually voted for him. Downplaying support figures is possible, but not to the extent that it can be ignored. This support may not represent a popular majority, and it may even be dwindling, but it is still sizeable. The US can get along with a split vote. That's pretty much normal. What it might have trouble with is when sides can't even relate to each other without denigrating, labeling and treating every issue as a zero sum game.

 

These people, these Americans, aren't going anywhere. They will not necessarily come about and vote democrat en masse because of Trump's conduct, incompetence and policies. They will not see the light even if you call them this or that on an extra 10,000 posts. People rarely listen when insults are hurled. So other than ignoring them, belittling them, or fantasizing major changes - what exactly is the plan?

 

But by all means, do call me naive while glossing over the above.

 

[craigt3365]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I would guess that one reason Trump won is that enough people felt the same way about HRC. Granted, Trump is an overkill, and is far more incompetent and obnoxious. But that doesn't change the premise. Leadership, while in power, does not usually encourage digging near the foundations of its authority. If things would have gone the other way, you too (or rather, the side you're for) would disregard Republican/Right wing/Trump supporters point of view.

One reason I feel democracy is a failed form of government.  Nothing better at the moment, but it's clearly failed.  IMHO

[boomerangutang]

9 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

One reason I feel democracy is a failed form of government.  Nothing better at the moment, but it's clearly failed.  IMHO

That's a reflection of the people setting up the voting, and the people voting.

 

I came away from the Nov. 8th election day shaking my head at how massively duped Trump voters had become.  Either that, of they actually want a mega-flawed character at the helm - perhaps as a way of giving the the middle finger to America.

 

[ilostmypassword]

Maybe the farmers are going to start joining The Resistance

U.S. Exports to Mexico Fall as Uncertainty Over Nafta Lingers

 

"Friction between the U.S. and Mexico over trade is starting to cut into sales for U.S. farmers and agricultural companies, adding uncertainty for an industry struggling with low commodity prices and excess supply.

Over the first four months of 2017, Mexican imports of U.S. soybean meal, used to feed poultry and livestock, dropped 15%, the first decrease for the period in four years, according to data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Shipments of U.S. chicken meat fell 11%, the biggest decline for the period since...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-exports-to-mexico-fall-as-uncertainty-over-nafta-lingers-1497605414

[Morch]

48 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

One reason I feel democracy is a failed form of government.  Nothing better at the moment, but it's clearly failed.  IMHO

 

Not that I disagree, but perhaps "failed" is not quite the word. Every form of government outlives its peak. It would be hubris to assume that the current model is different. These things take time though, so probably not quite there yet. 

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, boomerangutang said:

That's a reflection of the people setting up the voting, and the people voting.

 

I came away from the Nov. 8th election day shaking my head at how massively duped Trump voters had become.  Either that, of they actually want a mega-flawed character at the helm - perhaps as a way of giving the the middle finger to America.

 

I think it's more to do with the people voting rather than those who setup the system.

 

Agree with your comments,  but look where it got us. Worse off than before.

[rijb]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I would guess that one reason Trump won is that enough people felt the same way about HRC. Granted, Trump is an overkill, and is far more incompetent and obnoxious. But that doesn't change the premise. Leadership, while in power, does not usually encourage digging near the foundations of its authority. If things would have gone the other way, you too (or rather, the side you're for) would disregard Republican/Right wing/Trump supporters point of view.

When Trump supporters get really down on Trump, they think about Hillary.  And the Hillary clones that are still out there. 

 

http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/how-i-lost/ 

[Rigby40]

8 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

And you fell for all his BS.  He stands up for nobody but himself, as you should know by now. 

 

Sad times in the American Society.  Luckily, a majority now get it and are against Trump.  Many of the hard core supporters seem to be still involved for some type of financial or political reason.  I.E. Once a republican, always a republican.

What BS did I fall for? Not all Trump supporters support all of his policies or everything he's said, you'd think most people understand this as this is the case for most voters and their candidates.

So, seeing that you somehow seem to know all the positions I support him on

1.) which issues or positions do I support?

2.) and why do you think it's BS?

Edited June 16, 2017 by Rigby40

[Crowes]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

These people, these Americans, aren't going anywhere. They will not necessarily come about and vote democrat en masse because of Trump's conduct, incompetence and policies. They will not see the light even if you call them this or that on an extra 10,000 posts. People rarely listen when insults are hurled. So other than ignoring them, belittling them, or fantasizing major changes - what exactly is the plan?

 

 

That is their plan. That's what also helped lose them the election. Rather than have an adult conversation, they resort to name calling, made up stories from media organizations with the word "New York" in their name, comments by anonymous "officials" which are never true, and just out and out rage. I hope they keep it up too, it will be an easy re-election of Trump.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Crowes

[Thakkar]

10 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

10 hours ago, Rigby40 said:

<snip>

Essentially, the social justice Left turned me from a huge liberal to a conservative over the course of a couple years and with such poor timing on their part! And I'm not the only one, you can find thousands of people sharing similar stories like this.

Your conversion sound like a likely story. And not at all like concern trolling.

It's a story alright; a story of a man's regression from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde. From "Feeli'n the Bern" to "BURN IT ALL DOWN!!"