Trump faces hurdles to reinstating waterboarding

[webfact]

Trump faces hurdles to reinstating waterboarding

By DEB RIECHMANN

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — President-elect Donald Trump backs waterboarding and his pick for CIA director has called those who have done it "patriots" not "torturers." Yet a Trump administration faces steep legal and legislative hurdles to reinstate the interrogation practice that simulates drowning.

 

Under a law approved last year, all government employees, including intelligence agents, must abide by Army guidelines for interrogating prisoners — guidelines that don't permit waterboarding. Those rules are subject to review, but it's not clear if they can be revised to allow the practice.

 

If the Trump administration were to try to change the law or the guidelines, the effort would run into bipartisan opposition in Congress. The most formidable obstacle there would be a fellow Republican, John McCain. The Arizona senator, who was beaten as a prisoner of war in Vietnam in the 1960s, adamantly opposes waterboarding. As chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, he would be well-positioned to block any attempt to revive it.

 

McCain has clashed before with Trump, who during the campaign claimed the former Navy pilot wasn't a war hero because he had been captured. At a security conference in Canada last weekend, McCain indicated he was ready to take on Trump again as begins another six-year term after winning re-election.

 

"I don't give a damn what the president of the United States wants to do or anybody else wants to do," McCain said. "We will not waterboard. We will not do it."

 

Waterboarding and other harsh methods were used in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to try to obtain useful information from terrorist suspects. Many intelligence, military and law enforcement officials say the practice is ineffective as well as immoral. They say it breaks down trust between the suspect and interrogators and often prompts a detainee to say anything to stop the harsh treatment.

 

But Trump, who revved up his supporters with tough talk against against Islamic State extremists, pledged to interrogate terrorist suspects with waterboarding and a "hell of a lot worse."

 

"Don't tell me it doesn't work," Trump said. "Torture works, OK folks?"

 

Trump's nominee for CIA is Rep. Mike Pompeo, a conservative congressman from Kansas who has criticized President Barack Obama for "ending our interrogation program," which Obama did not do. Pompeo criticized the release of the Senate's 2014 report on harsh interrogation of detainees and argued that the CIA program operated within the law.

 

"Our men and women who were tasked to keep us safe in the aftermath of 9/11 — our military and our intelligence warriors — are ... not torturers, they are patriots," Pompeo said then.

 

The views of Trump's other nominees are more opaque.

 

Trump's national security adviser, Retired Army Lt. General Michael Flynn, has not ruled out the use of waterboarding. "If the nation was in grave danger from a terrorist attack involving weapons of mass destruction, and we had certain individuals in our custody with information that might avoid it, then I would probably OK enhanced interrogation techniques within certain limits," he told Politico in October.

 

Trump's pick for attorney general, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., was one of a few senators who voted against bipartisan anti-torture provisions in 2005 and 2015. But in 2008, Sessions said: "I am glad we are no longer utilizing waterboarding. I hope we never have to do it again." That was before the rise of IS militants.

 

And on Tuesday, Trump told The New York Times that he asked retired Marine Gen. James Mattis, a strong prospect for defense secretary, about waterboarding and was surprised to hear Mattis does not favor it.

 

Waterboarding has been prohibited since 2009. Two days after taking office, Obama issued an executive order prohibiting all government employees from using any interrogation method that wasn't spelled out in the Army Field Manual, a military how-to guide.

 

Wanting to ensure that no future president could tear up the order, McCain teamed up with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., to turn it into law. Their anti-torture amendment was adopted in a 78-21 bipartisan vote and became law late last year.

 

The law requires the Army to conduct a review of the field manual every three years in consultation with the attorney general, the FBI director and the director of national intelligence. The first review deadline is Dec. 19, 2017, during Trump's first year in office.

 

It's not clear if the review could result in changes allowing waterboarding or other harsh interrogation methods.

 

The best interrogation methods build rapport with suspects, according to the High-Value Detainee Group, a team of the nation's top interrogators who deploy to question detainees around the world. The group recently issued a report on the best interrogation practices, based on the latest behavioral and social science research.

 

Human rights advocates have long fought against any resumption of harsh interrogation techniques. They say the intelligence community stands firmly against it and point to a comment made this year by former CIA Director Michael Hayden. He said: "If any future president wants (the) CIA to waterboard anybody, he better bring his own bucket, because CIA officers aren't going to do it."

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-11-23

[Andaman Al]

Oh my, how I am surprised, not another case on the campaign of Trump engaging mouth before brain. Seems his supporters like mouth before brain people.

[pitrevie]

I wonder if that courthouse is still available in Nuremberg?

[humqdpf]

Whatever you could say about Trump, at least you would consider that the man was not stupid, until now.

 

Torture never works as a way of getting people to tell the truth. Simply put, when the interrogator/torturer has no clue as to the information prisoner has, when he tortures the prisoner will tell him what he thinks he wants to hear. If the torture continues, the tortured will try to find something else that he believes the torturer wants to hear. In such cases, the truth does not matter to the tortured - all he wants is the torture to stop.

 

If the torturer knows some information, he can try to verify it with the tortured who, in turn, will try to discern what the torturer wants to know and verify or not as he sees fit. Again, truth has nothing to do with it.

 

Most of the time, prisoners do not have much info anyway.

 

Why do certain nations torture? Some do so in the erroneous belief that they will get the truth. But most use torture to frighten the population. The Assad regime in Syria and the Hussein Regime in Iraq managed that - it was well known that if you stepped out of line, you would be tortured possibly to death.

 

Does the USA want to be in the same category as Syria and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

 

Modern interrogation techniques are much more evolved than merely inflicting pain. A little sensory deprivation along with some confusion is likely to break down any prisoner. The use of true information to surprise the prisoner as to what the interrogator already known, the use of friendship, quid pro quo and a variety of psychological techniques work on even the toughest prisoner.

 

An example: when the British found themselves with a number of high level Nazi officer prisoners during WW2, instead of trying to beat or torture information out of them, they housed them in a nice mansion where they were very well looked after. The mansion and the grounds were bugged and it is believed that the British used a variety of methods, including placement of stooges and false information, to get the Nazi officers drop their guard. It worked a treat and yielded a huge amount of information and cost as much as keeping the officers in a prison with a torture chamber.

[Cats4ever]

I remember, as a kid, watching the old WW2 propaganda movies of evil nazis torturing heroic resistance or allied agents and thinking good people could never do such things. As for the Japs, ditto.

[nausea]

I agree with Cats4ever, this isn't about effectiveness, it's about morality. I would disagree with humqdpf, in that I think torture to gain intelligence can work, under certain selective conditions, historical examples are numerous. As a philosophical exercise, one can hypothesise certain situations where time is of the essence and it might be morally justified - the location of a nuclear device planted in a city, or a kidnapped child, for example. I agree that torture is often just used as a fear inducing punishment or to get people to say what you want them to say (Camp 21, Cambodia springs to mind), or simply inappropriately and incompetently. I also agree that in most cases psychological techniques are more effective. Incidentally, there is an interesting wartime training video on youtube explaining the British WW2 techniques humqdpf refers to. Maybe we should send a copy to the CIA.

[bark]

CIA will hire a few surfers to torture the ISIS guys.

The surfers will misunderstand the term Waterboarding .

A member of ISIS will became the World Champion Surfer for 2017.

Trump will go crazy; but will have the ISIS Surfer and the Apprentices show. 

He will win, Trump will make a billion of the reformed ISIS guy.

[Jingthing]

Just about everything about trump becoming president of the USA is ... disturbing. This horrible demagogue actually said he would order U.S. troops to murder the families of terrorists. That's a war crime. That he got elected makes me feel ashamed to be American. Some Germans will understand. It's ironic that Germany's leader is now the leader of the free world. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jingthing

[OMGImInPattaya]

When it's necessary, like after the next mass-terrorism attack, it will be right back on the table, no matter what McCain has to say.

[DavidVincent]

8 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

When it's necessary, like after the next mass-terrorism attack, it will be right back on the table, no matter what McCain has to say.

I am quite sure after a few waterboarding time You would testify you did 9/11...torture never worked and will never work

[OMGImInPattaya]

1 minute ago, DavidVincent said:

I am quite sure after a few waterboarding time You would testify you did 9/11...torture never worked and will never work

It's a tool in the toolbox...just show them the rack and 98% of them will give it up.

[DavidVincent]

Just now, OMGImInPattaya said:

It's a tool in the toolbox...just show them the rack and 98% of them will give it up.

Would you?

If someone tells you he will torture you until you say you are behind a terrorist attack?

Would you confess ?

[jesimps]

I'd let the security services do their job by whatever means they consider necessary.

I would not, under any circumstances, ask for the opinions of liberals or their anarco chums.

 

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

It's a tool in the toolbox...just show them the rack and 98% of them will give it up.

Donald Trump disagrees with you.

"On the question of whether the U.S. military should use waterboarding and other forms of torture to break suspected terrorists — a position he advocated frequently during the campaign to great applause — Trump bluntly stated that he had changed his mind after talking with James N. Mattis, the retired Marine Corps general, who headed the United States Central Command.

Trump said Mattis told him of torture: “I’ve never found it to be useful.”...

He quoted Mattis as saying, “Give me a pack of cigarettes and a couple of beers and I always do better” than anyone using torture. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/opinion/at-lunch-donald-trump-gives-critics-hope.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

 

If anyone wants to read the entire transcript of Trump's interview, here's the link. Somehow, I think his supporters would rather not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/trump-new-york-times-interview-transcript.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[elgordo38]

My advice Donald is try it on yourself first. If it passes muster with you go for it. If you don't survive the test hmm. 

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, nausea said:

I agree with Cats4ever, this isn't about effectiveness, it's about morality. I would disagree with humqdpf, in that I think torture to gain intelligence can work, under certain selective conditions, historical examples are numerous. As a philosophical exercise, one can hypothesise certain situations where time is of the essence and it might be morally justified - the location of a nuclear device planted in a city, or a kidnapped child, for example. I agree that torture is often just used as a fear inducing punishment or to get people to say what you want them to say (Camp 21, Cambodia springs to mind), or simply inappropriately and incompetently. I also agree that in most cases psychological techniques are more effective. Incidentally, there is an interesting wartime training video on youtube explaining the British WW2 techniques humqdpf refers to. Maybe we should send a copy to the CIA.

 

Correct on all counts

 

the movie "Unthinkable" addresses the issue nicely!

 

British interrogation techniques in WW2 were very effective and did not involve physical torture. My father, a linguist, was involved in this (together with Station X and the Y service) so I'm very clear on the matter.

 

I'm astonished that so many Americans don't realise that abuse is a great recruiting officer. Why do you think ISIS victims were dressed in orange.

 

It's also uncivilised but I guess that's a lefty comment ?

[ClutchClark]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I'm astonished that so many Americans don't realise that abuse is a great recruiting officer. Why do you think ISIS victims were dressed in orange.

 

It's also uncivilised but I guess that's a lefty comment ?

 

I happen to support John McCains position on this subject; however, I don't think the absence of torture is going to impact ISIS recruitment numbers one iota. 

 

Their motivation is already well seeded. 

[ClutchClark]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That he got elected makes me feel ashamed to be American.

 

I would never be the kind to say, "Love it or Leave it" but I do wonder why you are coming back to it.

 

You have even mentioned you fear for your safety with this Trump victory.

 

Is the enticement of free healthcare really that strong?  

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I would never be the kind to say, "Love it or Leave it" but I do wonder why you are coming back to it.

 

You have even mentioned you fear for your safety with this Trump victory.

 

Is the enticement of free healthcare really that strong?  

Well, if you're referring to Medicare, (and discounting the fact that lots of Republicans including the Speaker of the House, and possibly the future President, want to severely weaken it) since it could be a matter of life and death, yes, the enticement could be that strong.

[Slickrick]

Never rule it out, have to leave it on the table.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Slickrick said:

Never rule it out, have to leave it on the table.

Donald Trump disagrees with you.

[ClutchClark]

9 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Well, if you're referring to Medicare, (and discounting the fact that lots of Republicans including the Speaker of the House, and possibly the future President, want to severely weaken it) since it could be a matter of life and death, yes, the enticement could be that strong.

 

Oh, I see JT is still ignoring me.

 

Is this one of those deals where I am supposed to say to you, "Well tell JT...."

 

 

[bubblewrap]

I don't consider waterboarding as torture.  It's more attitude adjustment therapy.

 

Pulling out toenails with a pair of hot pliers is torture.  Even then, it's okay by me if used under the right circumstances and 100% of liberals would agree if their next of kin were blown to smithereens by a terrorist. 

[ClutchClark]

1 minute ago, bubblewrap said:

I don't consider waterboarding as torture.  It's more attitude adjustment therapy.

 

I suppose I still don't understand it.

 

Its supposed to mimick the fear you are drowning but not really drown you?

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

20 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Oh, I see JT is still ignoring me.

 

Is this one of those deals where I am supposed to say to you, "Well tell JT...."

 

 

Actually, and I'm not kidding you, he is ignoring me, too. Who does he think he is, my parent?

[melvinmelvin]

8 hours ago, humqdpf said:

Whatever you could say about Trump, at least you would consider that the man was not stupid, until now.

 

Does the USA want to be in the same category as Syria and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

 

 

Yes, the USA wants to be among the torturers. Have been there for years. And probably considers it an OK place to be.

Torture sells in US politics. Its a vote grabber.

 

 

[bubblewrap]

7 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

I suppose I still don't understand it.

 

Its supposed to mimick the fear you are drowning but not really drown you?

 

Indeed, the receiver won't drown but will feel like they are.  When needs must then give them hell as they wouldn't hesitate to kill you anyway. 

 

Trump's got this one right on the ball.

[bubblewrap]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

Yes, the USA wants to be among the torturers. Have been there for years. And probably considers it an OK place to be.

Torture sells in US politics. Its a vote grabber.

 

Imagine if your mum, dad, sister, brother, daughter or son were murdered by a terrorist, think Boston and 9/11, do you think that you might reconsider your current position?

 

By the way, I sincerely hope that never befalls your family.

[ilostmypassword]

14 minutes ago, bubblewrap said:

 

Indeed, the receiver won't drown but will feel like they are.  When needs must then give them hell as they wouldn't hesitate to kill you anyway. 

 

Trump's got this one right on the ball.

Do you realize that Trump said he no longer supports waterboarding?

[bubblewrap]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Do you realize that Trump said he no longer supports waterboarding?

 

What Trump says and what he does are two totally different things.