Condo transfer problems at Pattaya Land Office?

[samsingsong]

I've heard of somebody recently having a problem at Pattaya Land Office buying a condo already with ownership in a Foreign Name in their 'Foreign Name'.

The Land Office said that the condominium building percentage of Foreign Name ownership is complete, and it would have to be registered in a Thai Company name (or Thai name). However this is a long established building, fully sold out many years ago, so how can the percentage change? 

I vaguely remember that some years ago (maybe 14-15?) the Thai Condo Law relating to the 51% Thai to 49% Foreign ownership was waived for a year or so to encourage more foreign investment. So possibly this building could have over 49% in 'Foreign Name', but only because the law allowed it!

Surely if a condo is originally bought as part of the Foreign Name percentage of the building it should always remain so?

With this story I heard that this is due to a new person at the Land Office who is causing problems for foreign owners? Anybody know anything about this?

[johng]

In the past it may have been possible for some " brown envelopes" to   influence the foreign quota %  per building

the present "administration"  might now be requiring "green envelopes".

[sharecropper]

Johng is right. In Pattaya many condominiums have transferred over 49% to foreigners. I can't think why. The Land Office is so clean, no? And when the music stops, some mug is left to pick up the pieces.

[onemorechang]

Think it would be nice for people to name the buildings this has been done

in,    as im sure,   this is an illegal activity for them to be doing it.

We would not want any more people being caught out like this.

if its true.

what are the buildings ?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by onemorechang

[wpcoe]

I've been in the condo market, both buying one and selling one, in the past few months and talking to a couple real estate agents, apparently it's not all that rare for a building and/or the Land Office to "make a mistake" and skew the % of foreign ownership >49%.  Both agents said it's not insurmountable, but they didn't explain just how to get beyond the initial hurdle.  Both the condo I sold and the condo I bought fortunately were within the 49% allowed.

 

If the OP's friend is attempting the sale without an agent/lawyer, they might want to consider getting an experienced lawyer to grease whatever wheels need lubrication.  If they already have an agent and/or a lawyer, they may want to consult a few lawyers at their own additional expense and ask for help.  Maybe someone here can recommend a lawyer?

[KittenKong]

On 30/11/2016 at 1:37 AM, samsingsong said:

I vaguely remember that some years ago (maybe 14-15?) the Thai Condo Law relating to the 51% Thai to 49% Foreign ownership was waived for a year or so to encourage more foreign investment. So possibly this building could have over 49% in 'Foreign Name', but only because the law allowed it!

Surely if a condo is originally bought as part of the Foreign Name percentage of the building it should always remain so?

 

Yes, you would think that an entirely official increase in the ratio would be respected indefinitely so as not to penalise buyers who use it, wouldn't you?

[KittenKong]

As far as I know, the problem is two-fold.

 

1. Some older buildings contain units sold to farangs during a temporary increase in the ratio, that was designed to protect developers during the Asian financial crisis. Some Land Offices are now unwilling to register ownership changes that keep the ratio above 49%. This seems very unfair.

 

2. The person responsible for compiling and certifying the ownership list for a building is the Juristic Person Manager. Some of these are just crooks, willing to falsify the list in return for a bribe. It seems remarkable to me that so much responsibility is given to people who basically could just have walked in off the street, and who are elected to this short-term position on a whim of the co-owners at a general meeting.

[onemorechang]

29 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Yes, you would think that an entirely official increase in the ratio would be respected indefinitely so as not to penalise buyers who use it, wouldn't you?

 

If this is the case.

It just goes to show,   how much you should trust Thailand

with your hard earned money.

Buyer beware !!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone want to trust a 10 year visa ,  No way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amazing Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

 

47 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

As far as I know, the problem is two-fold.

 

1. Some older buildings contain units sold to farangs during a temporary increase in the ratio, that was designed to protect developers during the Asian financial crisis. Some Land Offices are now unwilling to register ownership changes that keep the ratio above 49%. This seems very unfair.

 

2. The person responsible for compiling and certifying the ownership list for a building is the Juristic Person Manager. Some of these are just crooks, willing to falsify the list in return for a bribe. It seems remarkable to me that so much responsibility is given to people who basically could just have walked in off the street, and who are elected to this short-term position on a whim of the co-owners at a general meeting.

 

All right, so which is it?

 

1. Does the land department have the definitive list?

 

or 

 

2. Does the juristic manager have the definitive list?

 

Is the list presented to the Land Office when buying a condo? 

[AlQaholic]

I thought Pattaya was a special zone where there is no limit on foreign ownership in a condo?

 

Ministerial Regulation No. 8 (B.E. 2543) issued by the virtue of the Condominium Act B.E.

2522

Government Gazette No. 117 dated 4 October 2000

By the virtue of Section 5 of the Condominium Act B.E. 2522 and Section 19 bis paragraph two amended by the Condominium Act No. 3 B.E. 2542, the Minister of Interior, hereby announces the following Ministerial Regulation as follows:

Pattaya City shall be classified as other local government zone under Section 19 bis paragraph two.

 

Actually sec19 p2 gives no limit to the existing ownership, but does not mention what should happen if someone want to buy a unit where the ownership is already over the limit, soooo.....a bit cloudy......

Edited December 1, 2016 by AlQaholic

[Peterw42]

21 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

 

All right, so which is it?

 

1. Does the land department have the definitive list?

 

or 

 

2. Does the juristic manager have the definitive list?

 

Is the list presented to the Land Office when buying a condo? 

 

I think you need to consider there is often a 3rd list, developer stock that are still contracts, a chanote is yet to be issued. I have come across condos that are still owned by developer and a chanote doesn't exist yet, at some stage it goes from being a cement box with air in it , to a condo with a chanote and ownership. 

Land office or condo management have no idea of ownership as it doesn't exist as a condo with a chanote yet.

[Langsuan Man]

3 minutes ago, AlQaholic said:

I thought Pattaya was a special zone where there is no limit on foreign ownership in a condo?

 

You thought wrong.  Living in Pattaya "special zone"  has no special perks for expats.  It's designation as a special zone has to do with certain ways that government administration is set up,   primarily limiting the power of the Chonburi appointed governor's involvement in running Pattaya

 

During the Asian Economic crises there was a suspension of the 49/51 % foreign ownership rules to encourage foreign investments to prop up the Thai Baht.  Those condos that were purchased under this program continue to satisfy the condo law to this day, and no land office or juristic manager cannot change that.  Any good lawyer will be able to force the Land Office to issue a chanote that continues the foreign ownership of condos purchased under the emergency exemption

 

The condo that most exemplifies this is Center Condo on Pattaya Tai and as such has been able to have a "farang" oriented condo committee that has been able to push back from the Thai owners  and get many thing accomplished that are almost impossible in condos that are strictly  49/ 51 in ownership 

[AlQaholic]

1 minute ago, Langsuan Man said:

 

You thought wrong.  Living in Pattaya "special zone"  has no special perks for expats.  It's designation as a special zone has to do with certain ways that government administration is set up,   primarily limiting the power of the Chonburi appointed governor's involvement in running Pattaya

 

During the Asian Economic crises there was a suspension of the 49/51 % foreign ownership rules to encourage foreign investments to prop up the Thai Baht.  Those condos that were purchased under this program continue to satisfy the condo law to this day, and no land office or juristic manager cannot change that.  Any good lawyer will be able to force the Land Office to issue a chanote that continues the foreign ownership of condos purchased under the emergency exemption

 

The condo that most exemplifies this is Center Condo on Pattaya Tai and as such has been able to have a "farang" oriented condo committee that has been able to push back from the Thai owners  and get many thing accomplished that are almost impossible in condos that are strictly  49/ 51 in ownership 

I refer to my edited post #10, with the ministerial regulation edited in.....

[12DrinkMore]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

I think you need to consider there is often a 3rd list, developer stock that are still contracts, a chanote is yet to be issued. I have come across condos that are still owned by developer and a chanote doesn't exist yet, at some stage it goes from being a cement box with air in it , to a condo with a chanote and ownership. 

Land office or condo management have no idea of ownership as it doesn't exist as a condo with a chanote yet.

 

Surely that is irrelevant?

 

Only condos that have been sold into the foreign ownership quota are considered, once 49% has been reached that's the quota filled. Unowned boxes are not taking up any of the 49%.

 

[Peterw42]

14 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Surely that is irrelevant?

 

Only condos that have been sold into the foreign ownership quota are considered, once 49% has been reached that's the quota filled. Unowned boxes are not taking up any of the 49%.

 

 

Yes you are right, but you can see how it gets messy. each party, land office, developer and condo manager is reliant on information from the other parties to work out the 49/50%. And at any time the developer can make 10 empty boxes into owned condos and change the 100% figure. 

 

[mmail2you]

21 hours ago, sharecropper said:

Johng is right. In Pattaya many condominiums have transferred over 49% to foreigners. I can't think why. The Land Office is so clean, no? And when the music stops, some mug is left to pick up the pieces.

Go to the COC or juristic person and ask them what is the % of ownership as they have to have a list of all owners and wether they are Thai or Falang

[natway09]

Maybe some farangs have sold their condos to Thais????????

[12DrinkMore]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

Yes you are right, but you can see how it gets messy. each party, land office, developer and condo manager is reliant on information from the other parties to work out the 49/50%. And at any time the developer can make 10 empty boxes into owned condos and change the 100% figure. 

 

 

Maybe I have got this wrong but my understanding was the percentages are worked out on floor area and not individual box count. The building plans will show the amount of floor area allocated to condos. Foreigners are allowed to own up to 49% of this area.

 

 

 

[david555]

To play safe buying a condo , let your lawyer make a clause in contract or first compromise that sale is void and not one baht has to be paid if the land office does not wish  /can  inscribe condo in your foreign name ........., and ..... do NOT  give ANY  deposit , as the legal steps shall cost more than the deposit is worth, when trying to get it out of "agents " hands in case needed ..... they know you would abandon because of that ...

Pay all at the land office as the handling person give the green light , preference for safety is to pay with a certified Bank check, that one is immediate collectable at that bank ...

Edited December 1, 2016 by david555

[tontraveller]

1 hour ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Maybe I have got this wrong but my understanding was the percentages are worked out on floor area and not individual box count. The building plans will show the amount of floor area allocated to condos. Foreigners are allowed to own up to 49% of this area.

 

 

 

that is correct

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

2. Does the juristic manager have the definitive list?

 

Is the list presented to the Land Office when buying a condo? 

 

As I mentioned, as far as I know the JPM maintains the list showing the ratios and is responsible for it. The document showing the ratio is given to the LO at the time of a sale.

 

I dont know to what extent this is compared with any previous document or other document maintained by the LO, but common sense would suggest that it should be.

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

As I mentioned, as far as I know the JPM maintains the list showing the ratios and is responsible for it. The document showing the ratio is given to the LO at the time of a sale.

 

I dont know to what extent this is compared with any previous document or other document maintained by the LO, but common sense would suggest that it should be.

 

Thats my understanding, but the condo office would be reliant on the land office for information about recent sales, open other end. 

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

I think you need to consider there is often a 3rd list, developer stock that are still contracts, a chanote is yet to be issued. I have come across condos that are still owned by developer and a chanote doesn't exist yet, at some stage it goes from being a cement box with air in it , to a condo with a chanote and ownership. 

Land office or condo management have no idea of ownership as it doesn't exist as a condo with a chanote yet.

 

When the building is declared to be a condo all the plans are submitted and the sizes of all units are recorded. It makes no difference whether anyone owns them or not, or whether the chanotes have actually been issued.

 

Any unit is considered to be part of the Thai quota until sold to a farang, though some developers may choose to reserve particular units for farangs or Thais. But that's just a marketing decision.

[KittenKong]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

the condo office would be reliant on the land office for information about recent sales, open other end. 

 

In theory you cant sell a condo without the JPM knowing about it as he/she must issue a debt-free certificate and provide the ratio declaration in order for any sale to go through at the LO.

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

 Those condos that were purchased under this program continue to satisfy the condo law to this day, and no land office or juristic manager cannot change that.  Any good lawyer will be able to force the Land Office to issue a chanote that continues the foreign ownership of condos purchased under the emergency exemption

 

If the LO or JPM cant change or refute this, why should a lawyer be necessary at all? The whole problem with this issue is that some Land Offices seem to think, rightly or wrongly, that they can change it.

 

 

9 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

The condo that most exemplifies this is Center Condo on Pattaya Tai

 

Similar problems in Chateau Dale, as far as I know. And there some sales to farangs were refused at one point this year. I cant remember how it ended.

[ThaiBob]

13 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

If the LO or JPM cant change or refute this, why should a lawyer be necessary at all? The whole problem with this issue is that some Land Offices seem to think, rightly or wrongly, that they can change it.

 

 

 

Similar problems in Chateau Dale, as far as I know. And there some sales to farangs were refused at one point this year. I cant remember how it ended.

View Talay 2 also sold units under this foreign ownership waiver (1999—2004). It would be interesting to know if any foreign resale units in that project have experienced any problems at the Land Office. 

[wpcoe]

On 12/2/2016 at 8:18 AM, ThaiBob said:

View Talay 2 also sold units under this foreign ownership waiver (1999—2004). It would be interesting to know if any foreign resale units in that project have experienced any problems at the Land Office. 

 

I know of a transfer done in VT2A (foreigner to foreigner sale) a few months ago with no problems.

 

I thought that VT2 was intended to be sold under the foreign ownership waiver program but they missed filing some needed paperwork before beginning construction (or sales?) and therefore didn't qualify for the waiver.

[Anthony5]

1 minute ago, wpcoe said:

 

I know of a transfer done in VT2A (foreigner to foreigner sale) a few months ago with no problems.

 

I thought that VT2 was intended to be sold under the foreign ownership waiver program but they missed filing some needed paperwork before beginning construction (or sales?) and therefore didn't qualify for the waiver.

 

I don't think VT2 could ever qualify for the waiver, as I understand that one of the conditions was that the building was on not more than 1Rai of land

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, Anthony5 said:

 

// as I understand that one of the conditions was that the building was on not more than 1Rai of land

 

Center Condo qualified and was on a land about 5 Rais...

1 Rai would be very small for a condo

[Langsuan Man]

1 hour ago, Anthony5 said:

 

I don't think VT2 could ever qualify for the waiver, as I understand that one of the conditions was that the building was on not more than 1Rai of land

 

Where are you getting this information about the land size of the condo that determined whether or not the 49/51% ownership was waived ?

 

The government was desperate to get incoming funds, so they had very few restrictions on what condos were eligible