UK voters reject ''hard Brexit'' in shock Lib Dem by-election victory

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, Basil B said:

 

So why did the Tory's not field a candidate???

 

Were they supporting the Lib Dems??? 

 

There will be plenty of Conservatives sticking that donkey's tail on Zac Goldsmith this weekend.

[SheungWan]

22 hours ago, Loeilad said:

The tories fear an election, but with a newly appointed PM a remainer pushing for a leave deal in a country that now appears to be against leaving who doesn't want to lose her unexpected position it will be hard to achieve.

 

Goldsmith was fighting in his heartland on a NIMBY ticket which was overshadowed by an anti-Brexit vote who preferred a candidate with no political history from previously lame duck party who overturned a 23k majority....that is some angry protest.

 

I think it is fairly clear that any general election would now kick out Brexit for good. .... but Theresa may would lose her premiership - the things people will do to hold on to power - openly support a policy they were against.

 

There is little likelihood of any general election being called other than via the parliamentary process of activation of Article 50 or laying out of negotiated terms with the government losing its majority in parliament. There is some possibility of Article 50 not succeeding which is why may wants to by-pass parliament but neither Labour nor the Tories right now want to go to the country. Only the Lib_Dems fancy their luck this weekend and UKIP keeps tripping over its own shoelaces, so better concentrate on preparing the XMas dinner.

Edited December 4, 2016 by SheungWan

[jayboy]

21 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Of course, but I am tired of Brexiter indignation that the will of the country is somehow being dismissed.

Brexiters won the vote but they do not reflect the mood of the majority of the country.

 

I was a Remainer and very disappointed at the referendum outcome.

 

Still the Euronews headline re the Richmond by-election was misleading, and your posts on the national mood are equally misleading.

 

There are always ways of looking at a democratic decision to undermine its validity.However if truth be told there is very rarely a "majority" especially if one includes those who didn't vote.Even in the US election where Trump didn't win the popular vote, he definitely has a democratic mandate.In the case of Brexit the result is crystal clear.There is no evidence at all that the mood of the majority of the country has changed:indeed it may have even hardened in the Brexit direction.

 

I dislike the way things have gone as much as you do but I dislike your kind of wishful self deception about the mood of the country.I have seen enough of that way of thinking in Thailand - almost always from those who distrust and fear democracy.

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

How many people have you personally surveyed in the UK and in what areas to come to that conclusion?

 

Well, clearly the Brexiteers on this and numerous other TV threads about this unfolding disaster are wholly comfortable to claim to be speaking for the majority of the country - are you also suggesting that they are incorrect?.

[RuamRudy]

57 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I was a Remainer and very disappointed at the referendum outcome.

 

Still the Euronews headline re the Richmond by-election was misleading, and your posts on the national mood are equally misleading.

 

There are always ways of looking at a democratic decision to undermine its validity.However if truth be told there is very rarely a "majority" especially if one includes those who didn't vote.Even in the US election where Trump didn't win the popular vote, he definitely has a democratic mandate.In the case of Brexit the result is crystal clear.There is no evidence at all that the mood of the majority of the country has changed:indeed it may have even hardened in the Brexit direction.

 

I dislike the way things have gone as much as you do but I dislike your kind of wishful self deception about the mood of the country.I have seen enough of that way of thinking in Thailand - almost always from those who distrust and fear democracy.

 

Call me pedantic, but when someone claims that the majority of the country is behind something, I would expect that to mean, at least, 50% plus 1.

I don't believe that I have ever stated that I can speak with confidence on the mood of the country. I merely point out the disingenuous language uses by Brexiters when they claim that they represent the majority view of the UK public, as if to give some added emphasis to their outrage. They are claiming the voices of those who did not speak for them.  

[i claudius]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You did thanks. I have been absent as I was sent to the naughty corner for 5 days without a warning. Someone didn't like my honest but sarcastic reply, so I was sidelined. it was quite refreshing though just reading and not commenting. Anyway I am back.

 

I keep getting sent there , it does get a bit frustrating sometimes though doesnt it

[Laughing Gravy]

18 minutes ago, i claudius said:

 

I keep getting sent there , it does get a bit frustrating sometimes though doesnt it

Yes, like a naughty boy, just not knowing why people just don't have the same or even a sense of humour.

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

I was a Remainer and very disappointed at the referendum outcome.

 

Still the Euronews headline re the Richmond by-election was misleading, and your posts on the national mood are equally misleading.

 

There are always ways of looking at a democratic decision to undermine its validity.However if truth be told there is very rarely a "majority" especially if one includes those who didn't vote.Even in the US election where Trump didn't win the popular vote, he definitely has a democratic mandate.In the case of Brexit the result is crystal clear.There is no evidence at all that the mood of the majority of the country has changed:indeed it may have even hardened in the Brexit direction.

 

I dislike the way things have gone as much as you do but I dislike your kind of wishful self deception about the mood of the country.I have seen enough of that way of thinking in Thailand - almost always from those who distrust and fear democracy.

HTere is a slight swing to remain at present - however I think the bye-election shows - amongst other things - how polarised the countries are on the issue - the strength of feeling - outright anger - expressed in Richmond has over-ridden the NIMBY vote and a naturally Conservative electorate.

 

any government pursuing Brexit is going to face probably the strongest opposition in recent history.......and as it includes the rich, powerful and the intelligentsia they are facing a formidable foe.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Call me pedantic, but when someone claims that the majority of the country is behind something, I would expect that to mean, at least, 50% plus 1.

I don't believe that I have ever stated that I can speak with confidence on the mood of the country. I merely point out the disingenuous language uses by Brexiters when they claim that they represent the majority view of the UK public, as if to give some added emphasis to their outrage. They are claiming the voices of those who did not speak for them.  

 

Actually you did say the views of the Brexiteers did not reflect the majority of the country.Thus your point here (perfectly valid) is a matter on which you should reflect.

 

In almost all democratic choices opinion is usually split.In the case of the UK it is split down the middle - but the referendum has been held under known rules and a decision made.If one prefers a system where such far reaching decisions are only made by good, educated and civilised people that is a whole new debate.

[thaibeachlovers]

The headline is misinformation. UK VOTERS implies that a majority is anti hard Brexit, but this was a by election in an area that voted to stay.

I believe that the media wanted to stay, so this is just more media propaganda.

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Well, clearly the Brexiteers on this and numerous other TV threads about this unfolding disaster are wholly comfortable to claim to be speaking for the majority of the country - are you also suggesting that they are incorrect?.

 

Actually I am not suggesting that they are incorrect as there are numerous link saying that they won more votes than the remainers. For those that didn't vote and are now complaining my answer is that you had the chance to vote the same as everybody else did.

 

Who knows what would have happened if they had voted?

 

However you didn't answer my question.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

Actually you did say the views of the Brexiteers did not reflect the majority of the country.Thus your point here (perfectly valid) is a matter on which you should reflect.

 

In almost all democratic choices opinion is usually split.In the case of the UK it is split down the middle - but the referendum has been held under known rules and a decision made.If one prefers a system where such far reaching decisions are only made by good, educated and civilised people that is a whole new debate.

 

I think that you and me are talking about apples and pears. I am not questioning the validity of the outcome - that is clear, no matter how it may upset me.

 

When I say that the Brexiters' views do not reflect the majority of the country, I mean in a literal sense. While the reality is that neither side can claim to represent the views of those who didin't  vote, common sense suggests that the majority of non-voters were not particularly interested either way, so the status quo must be acceptable to them. However, that was not the case when there was so much outrage spilled over the High Court ruling that parliament had to vote on Brexit. Suddenly, it was claimed, more than half the country was being deprived of democracy - it sounds much more urgent than 52% of those who bothered to vote.

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, billd766 said:

However you didn't answer my question.

 

A number between none of them and all of them - either way, it detracts nothing whatsoever from my point.

 

28 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Actually I am not suggesting that they are incorrect as there are numerous link saying that they won more votes than the remainers.

 

I also don't believe that they are being 'incorrect' in the sense that they are making an honest error - I think that those who claim that Brexit represents half the country are fully aware of how disengenuous they are being, but are reliant upon not being called out on it. Let's be honest, so much of the Brexit campaign was based upon sophistry and misrepresentation of the truth. Why should it end now?

[geriatrickid]

20 hours ago, mrbojangles said:

 

Well at least we now know that the Democrat part of Lib Dem doesn't mean they believe in Democracy

 

On the contrary, she has been honest and stated her view. The constituents endorsed that position when they elected her. It is democracy because she will be representing the  position held by the overwhelming majority of her riding.

 

The fact of the matter is that while there was a vote to  initiate a withdrawal from the EU, it is still subject to the laws under which the vote was held. It just so happens that there  may be a requirement for  the members of parliament who are elected by the people to vote on the  withdrawal. Parliament passed the laws and it is an uncontestable fact of law that when laws come into conflict, the law that offers the most protection must be respected until such time as that law is repealed. That is how democracy works.

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You did thanks. I have been absent as I was sent to the naughty corner for 5 days without a warning. Someone didn't like my honest but sarcastic reply, so I was sidelined. it was quite refreshing though just reading and not commenting. Anyway I am back.

 

You've been a very naughty boy!

 

Anyway, good to see you back ?

[CharlieK]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The headline is misinformation. UK VOTERS implies that a majority is anti hard Brexit, but this was a by election in an area that voted to stay.

I believe that the media wanted to stay, so this is just more media propaganda.

 

 

And it continues! the debate on what sort of Brexit, hard or soft is just that media spin and a lack of honesty by politicians. The truth is closer to "the type of brexit we will get is the type of brexit the EU will allow" no more no less. Yet this is a point no one in authority is making. Instead they go on about not revealing  the UK negotiating hand until the right time for fear of making the negotiations harder for the UK. 

 

With the Lib/Dems and now labour making conditions on what sort of brexit they will accept, shows that this is going to take longer than necessary. This is politicians doing what they want not what the people want.

 

Just remember these are the same politicians who really didn't want to brexit, even those that campaigned for it were  shocked they won. So why would any of you really expect them to follow through with it. 

 

The disconnect between politicians and the people is getting wider by the day. Tomorrows hearing in the high court will continue this fiasco. Any bets which way that will go for the Cons!     

 

    

[Basil B]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Well, clearly the Brexiteers on this and numerous other TV threads about this unfolding disaster are wholly comfortable to claim to be speaking for the majority of the country - are you also suggesting that they are incorrect?.

 

Actually being in the UK the general consensus is that many of those who voted Bexit are having second thoughts... so a Lib Dem win in a hard Brexit constituency may prove the point.

Knowing much about how people vote, most people do not change party allegiance, they just do not vote if they are at the time not in favour of their party of choice.

My thoughts are Tim is the wrong person for party leader, he is very much like Ming ...to much a nice guy who will not stoop to fight dirty with the the other Party Leaders...

 

 

 

  

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

You've been a very naughty boy!

 

Anyway, good to see you back ?

Well It is good to be back and thank you sir.. For the offence it was abysmal How dare someone try and get a university degree quickly.

 

Just to stoke  the fire so to speak. A little reminder of some of our politicians quotes and also a realization check to those who are still clinging on to the believe that the people who voted leave wanted nothing other than to get out of the corrupt EU.

 

David Cameron, June 12: “The British public would be voting, if we Leave, to leave the EU and leave the Single Market.” 

 

George Osborne, June 8: “We’d be out of the Single Market, that’s the reality, Britain would be quitting, quitting the Single Market.”

 

Michael Gove, May 8: “We should be outside the Single Market.” 

 

Nigel Farage, February 22: “I don’t want to be part of the European Single Market, I want Britain to leave the European Union, be an independent country and trade with the world”.

.

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, Basil B said:

 

Actually being in the UK the general consensus is that many of those who voted Bexit are having second thoughts... so a Lib Dem win in a hard Brexit constituency may prove the point.

Knowing much about how people vote, most people do not change party allegiance, they just do not vote if they are at the time not in favour of their party of choice.

My thoughts are Tim is the wrong person for party leader, he is very much like Ming ...to much a nice guy who will not stoop to fight dirty with the the other Party Leaders...

(7by7 emphasis)

 Except this is a LibDem win in a constituency which voted 7 to 1 to remain!

 

I assume, though, that you meant if there were to be a by election in a constituency which voted for Brexit and a Remain candidate beat a Brexit one.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I thought you people wanted MPs to directly represent the views of their electorate. Make your mind up!!

 

As for LibDem being undemocratic, in what way?

 

The view of the electorate was expressed in the referendum.

 

The LibDems are being undemocratic because they refuse to accept that result.

[Basil B]

Just now, 7by7 said:

 Except this is a LibDem win in a constituency which voted 7 to 1 to remain!

 

I assume, though, that you meant if there were to be a by election in a constituency which voted for Brexit and a Remain candidate beat a Brexit one.

 

I am sure sure many Tory and Labour voters will stay home, particularly when prices really start to climb,  I have already seen 10% price increases across the board with many manufactures and prices are still climbing, I will soon have to pass these prices on.

[Basil B]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The view of the electorate was expressed in the referendum.

 

The LibDems are being undemocratic because they refuse to accept that result.

 

That's not true...

 

The Lib Dem MP's are divided on whether to vote against or for moving Article 50 if such a vote is put to the MP,s which hopefully the Supreme Court with clarify tomorrow. 

 

What Voters will remember is the Lib Dems was the only major party that was 100% remain.

[SheungWan]

48 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The view of the electorate was expressed in the referendum.

 

The LibDems are being undemocratic because they refuse to accept that result.

 

The Liberal Democrats as a party are not obliged to accept the result of a referendum as the final word. In fact the LibDems are perfectly entitled to campaign for a second referendum if they so wish to.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

The Liberal Democrats as a party are not obliged to accept the result of a referendum as the final word. In fact the LibDems are perfectly entitled to campaign for a second referendum if they so wish to.

 

Ah, yes.

 

The Nicola Sturgeon approach to referenda; "I don't like the result, so I'll  keep on demanding repeat ones until I get my way!"

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Ah, yes.

 

The Nicola Sturgeon approach to referenda; "I don't like the result, so I'll  keep on demanding repeat ones until I get my way!"

 

Of course, the SNP continue to get elected (and not via FPTP either) so her approach must appeal to a sizeable percentage of the population. Time will tell if the Lib Dems can tap into a similar vein of disaffection.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Ah, yes.

 

The Nicola Sturgeon approach to referenda; "I don't like the result, so I'll  keep on demanding repeat ones until I get my way!"

 

You might not like it (and you are fully entitled to your opinion not to) but she is entitled to do exactly just that. As long as you don't confuse your opinion with legal entitlement we will all get on just fine.

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

And it continues! the debate on what sort of Brexit, hard or soft is just that media spin and a lack of honesty by politicians. The truth is closer to "the type of brexit we will get is the type of brexit the EU will allow" no more no less. Yet this is a point no one in authority is making. Instead they go on about not revealing  the UK negotiating hand until the right time for fear of making the negotiations harder for the UK. 

 

With the Lib/Dems and now labour making conditions on what sort of brexit they will accept, shows that this is going to take longer than necessary. This is politicians doing what they want not what the people want.

 

Just remember these are the same politicians who really didn't want to brexit, even those that campaigned for it were  shocked they won. So why would any of you really expect them to follow through with it. 

 

The disconnect between politicians and the people is getting wider by the day. Tomorrows hearing in the high court will continue this fiasco. Any bets which way that will go for the Cons!     

 

    

 

Old school 'Blame The Politicians' malarkey resurrected by hard brexiteers frustrated at the holy grail seemingly slipping off towards the horizon.

[nontabury]

Edited December 4, 2016 by nontabury

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

The view of the electorate was expressed in the referendum.

 

The LibDems are being undemocratic because they refuse to accept that result.

 

THEIR electorate. Jeeez

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Ah, yes.

 

The Nicola Sturgeon approach to referenda; "I don't like the result, so I'll  keep on demanding repeat ones until I get my way!"

 

Facile. There has been significant debate since the referendum and people can see the likely effects already. With such an important decision one might want to check after a cooling off period. Why are you Brexiteers so nervous?