The future of car driving is electric, say experts

[impulse]

27 minutes ago, Silurian said:

I would think the "green" thing to do would be using a renewable power source (solar, wind, geothermic, etc...) to perform this hydrogen separation.

 

Another source for hydrogen is natural gas. From wikipedia, "Hydrogen can be generated from natural gas with approximately 80% efficiency".

 

Where are you going to get your renewable power?

 

It's a lot like running your car on recycled french fry oil from restaurants.  One or two guys do it, and they're visionaries out to save the planet.  (And everyone in the neighborhood starts craving some McD's fries)   The whole town does it, there isn't enough (free) recycled cooking oil to go around, we have to divert corn production from feeding the masses to making fuel, the masses can't afford corn any more and the visionaries can no longer find recycled cooking oil.  

 

If you're going to get your hydrogen from natural gas, why not just run them on natural gas?  The technology exists, the infrastructure to refill is already in place in many locations.

 

I'm all for electric cars for the vast majority of commuting.  (Not hydrogen until they get the cost/HP for fuel cells down and prove we can haul high pressure hydrogen in millions of autos without burning up a bunch of people).  But the electrical grid is already heavily loaded in lots of places, lots of us live in high rise apartments with no charging facilities, and I don't want to be locked into 1 car for commuting and a second car for long road trips, even though I could afford it.

 

Edit:  Still, my next car will probably be an electric.  Even though I make my living in the oil business.  I'm an engineer, and I'm hoping to build my own solar charging facility since solar panel prices are dropping so fast.  But I'm willing to concede compromises that the majority of the motoring public can't or won't (I'll be retired).  And I can afford some experimentation as a hobby.

Edited December 5, 2016 by impulse

[ExpatOilWorker]

12 minutes ago, Silurian said:

 

I think in most cases the cars would be plugged in at home overnight. That is what I would do. It also might lead to certain businesses having plug-in parking spaces dedicated to such vehicles. 

 

Central Chitlom already have a charging station at the 2nd floor parking area.

In time all shopping centers, condos and office buildings will have charging areas. Since everybody reverse park, they might even automatically plug when you park and disengage when you drive out.

The car could have a top-up credit card system, that is automatically deducted when charging. Easy and simply.

[Silurian]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Where are you going to get your renewable power?

 

It's a lot like running your car on recycled french fry oil from restaurants.  One or two guys do it, and they're visionaries out to save the planet.  (And everyone in the neighborhood starts craving some McD's fries)   The whole town does it, there isn't enough (free) recycled cooking oil to go around, we have to divert corn production from feeding the masses to making fuel, the masses can't afford corn any more and the visionaries can no longer find recycled cooking oil.  

 

If you're going to get your hydrogen from natural gas, why not just run them on natural gas?  The technology exists, the infrastructure to refill is already in place in many locations.

 

I'm all for electric cars for the vast majority of commuting.  (Not hydrogen until they get the cost/HP for fuel cells down and prove we can haul high pressure hydrogen in millions of autos without burning up a bunch of people).  But the electrical grid is already heavily loaded in lots of places, lots of us live in high rise apartments with no charging facilities, and I don't want to be locked into 1 car for commuting and a second car for long road trips, even though I could afford it.

 

 I wasn't advocating the use of hydrogen, just explaining on how and where to get it.

 

Regarding your last comment of 2 cars, that is where a plug-in hybrid slots. You use the electric motor for driving around town (about 40km range currently) and the petrol motor for longer trips.

 

I understand the current electrical grid might not be up to the challenge but that could change.

[ExpatOilWorker]

28 minutes ago, luk AJ said:

BMW and others moved from hybrid cars to plug in cars the question is why? These plug in cars can't be charged by their own combustion engine so you need access to a electricity source. Where will we find this in Bangkok?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

For now plug-in hybrids get a tax break, that is the reason for BMW and Mercedes to introduce the 7 and S-series as plug-in hybrids in Thailand.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

24 minutes ago, oldcarguy said:

How many electric cords will I have to step over when all these electric cars need to recharge on the street in front of there homes ?

 

All these guys love to say 60 miles per gallon , but do not factor in th cost of the electric ,

 

batteries have only so many charge cycles  before they need to be replaced at huge cost ,

 

What happens when 20 electric cars need to recharge for 1-2-hours and there are 5 plugs ? ( sometimes 4-8 hours)

 

right now the answer is Hybrid electric , and maybe make the electric a larger part of the "hybrid" mix ,

 

But consider  using a Hybrid in  Thailand , limited battery power and high temps so you need AirCo , do you use up you battery power to keep cool in traffic , or your Petrol ?

 

As is said , not ready for prime time yet ,  but it is getting better and a better battery power to weigh ratio plus quicker recharging is the key.....

 

 

 

Electric vehicles will probably go through a product cycle similar to that of flat screen TVs. Do you remember back when a 42" plasma TV with a resolution of 480p was 300,000+ baht?

Now they throw a 50" LED with a gazillion pixels  at you for less than 20,000 baht.

 

I thing we will see a huge battery recycle or refurbish industry coming along, bringing down the price of replacing the batteries.

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

they might even automatically plug when you park and disengage when you drive out.

 

Had to chuckle at that one when I see that a lot of people can't even keep it between the 2 lines when they park, especially back-in.  Don't get me wrong, it's a great concept.

 

And that brings up the question of compatibility.  If you're using standard extension cords, no problem.  But any kind of rapid charge system is probably going to need something specialized, heavier and more expensive.  And I can't even charge my Samsung phone on an IPhone charger.  And now they're going to USB C.  Imagine the $$ billions to spend keeping up with the standards as e-vehicles evolve.

Edited December 5, 2016 by impulse

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Had to chuckle at that one when I see that a lot of people can't even keep it between the 2 lines when they park, especially back-in.  Don't get me wrong, it's a great concept.

 

And that brings up the question of compatibility.  If you're using standard extension cords, no problem.  But any kind of rapid charge system is probably going to need something specialized, heavier and more expensive.  And I can't even charge my Samsung phone on an IPhone charger.  And now they're going to USB C.  Imagine the $$ billions to spend keeping up with the standards as e-vehicles evolve.

 

The standardization is already happening and $$ billion  are being spend. Remember what Samsung bough just a few weeks ago for $8 billion?

No need for rapid charging systems, cars are parked 95% of the time anyway.

[impulse]

BTW Great Youtube called "The revenge of the electric car".

 

Pretty inspiring for anyone who remembers "Who killed the electric car", which can be found all over, but I'm not sure if it's legal, so ya gotta find it yourself.

 

 

[fruitman]

On 3-12-2016 at 7:42 PM, ExpatOilWorker said:

That said, it will take 20 years before the auto industry embrace this change.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/07/vw-new-china-only-electric-vehicle-new-brand-name/

 

Why would brake-pads last longer on an EV?? Those cars are very heavy because of all the batteries.

 

 

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

No need for rapid charging systems, cars are parked 95% of the time anyway.

 

Cars may be parked for 95% of the time, but most people drive in spurts at least occasionally.  Just the thought of having to plan a weekend days' outing to accommodate a 4-8 hour break for charging up the car would reduce the potential customer base.  These are the same people who pay big $$$ for AWD for the 0.5% of the time they may need it.  We're spoiled. 

[Mosha]

This is the future.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, fruitman said:

Why would brake-pads last longer on an EV?? Those cars are very heavy because of all the batteries.

 

Most braking on an EV will be regenerative, only using the brake pads on rare occasions.  Unless you let your teenage kids borrow the car.

[Grouse]

All great ideas but you need to do the maths. Let's say we assume 100kW required for say 4 hours driving. How many batteries for 400kWh? Let's assume a lead acid battery rated at 100Ah. About 1.3kWh. So that's about 300 batteries. Weight? 5kg? So that's 1.5 tonnes in batteries!

 

Now, what about charging? Maximum 2 hours? How many amps? Volts? 230V ac is 400V peak so 4 banks of 75 batteries at 400V DC. Maybe 40kW charging requirement?

 

The above is a very rough indication....

 

In short this all requires big infrastructure and power generation. Nuclear is the only way.

[impulse]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:14 PM, Anthony5 said:

Tesla electric cars have been a success in countries like Norway only because of the huge tax breaks, lifetime free charging at the quick charge stations, and other incentives.

 

Take away all those freebies, Tesla recently removed the free charging already, and look how the popularity declines.

 

Solar energy was also very popular, until they removed the tax breaks.

 

Oil powered vehicles have been getting tax subsidies forever as we spend $$ trillions on defending corrupt governments in the Middle East (Edit: then spend $$ billions fighting the terrorists and supporting the refugees that spawns) $$ billions to keep the sea lanes open for tankers, and $$ trillions to treat diseases brought on by pollution.  Not to mention the millions of years of life cut short every year, including our kids' blood spilled defending the world's oil.

 

Seems a reasonable investment to subsidize alternatives to help them get caught up to oil's head start.

Edited December 5, 2016 by impulse

[Grouse]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

All great ideas but you need to do the maths. Let's say we assume 100kW required for say 4 hours driving. How many batteries for 400kWh? Let's assume a lead acid battery rated at 100Ah. About 1.3kWh. So that's about 300 batteries. Weight? 5kg? So that's 1.5 tonnes in batteries!

 

Now, what about charging? Maximum 2 hours? How many amps? Volts? 230V ac is 400V peak so 4 banks of 75 batteries at 400V DC. Maybe 40kW charging requirement?

 

The above is a very rough indication....

 

In short this all requires big infrastructure and power generation. Nuclear is the only way.

Correction 10 banks of 30 batteries

[oldcarguy]

I could use a EV as a 2nd car .......if.......

 

it was a real size car , not a SMART car minicar

 

it  had 75-100 miles real range , up and down hills , highway speed with either the AC or Heater on plus Headlights ,

 

That when you came home you could park it on its charging center, not have to plug it in , just park it ,

 

full recharge can be overnight , but you could FAST charge in 2 hours or so....

 

Batteries were 5-7 years and if they did not do 70% charge at that time the replaced them for free ,

 

That would do 80% of my driving needs ,  but I would still have a 2nd  "regular" car  for days like  today where I needed my Truck

 

[impulse]

18 minutes ago, oldcarguy said:

That would do 80% of my driving needs ,  but I would still have a 2nd  "regular" car  for days like  today where I needed my Truck

 

Until T-Uber comes up with a truck sharing app where you can conjure up a guy with a pickup on those rare occasions when you gotta have a truck.  Maybe with 2 or 3 buddies to help load and unload the kegs...

[Mosha]

I read that Formula E isn't far off being able to do a full race with just one car per driver. The technology is a dancing.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Mosha said:

This is the future.
 

 

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk
 

 

 

It the the future (and past) of Britain. Here is the future of the rest of the world:

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

All great ideas but you need to do the maths. Let's say we assume 100kW required for say 4 hours driving. How many batteries for 400kWh? Let's assume a lead acid battery rated at 100Ah. About 1.3kWh. So that's about 300 batteries. Weight? 5kg? So that's 1.5 tonnes in batteries!

 

Now, what about charging? Maximum 2 hours? How many amps? Volts? 230V ac is 400V peak so 4 banks of 75 batteries at 400V DC. Maybe 40kW charging requirement?

 

The above is a very rough indication....

 

In short this all requires big infrastructure and power generation. Nuclear is the only way.

 

You grossly overestimated the power consumption. The cruising speed power consumption for a mid size car is about:

 

15 kW at 90 km/h

25 kW at 120 km/h

 

100 kW will have you flying in excess of 200 km/h. Have a safe trip.

Edited December 5, 2016 by ExpatOilWorker

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, oldcarguy said:

I could use a EV as a 2nd car .......if.......

 

it was a real size car , not a SMART car minicar

 

it  had 75-100 miles real range , up and down hills , highway speed with either the AC or Heater on plus Headlights ,

 

That when you came home you could park it on its charging center, not have to plug it in , just park it ,

 

full recharge can be overnight , but you could FAST charge in 2 hours or so....

 

Batteries were 5-7 years and if they did not do 70% charge at that time the replaced them for free ,

 

That would do 80% of my driving needs ,  but I would still have a 2nd  "regular" car  for days like  today where I needed my Truck

 

 

Tesla was the first, but soon all major car brands will have full size electric cars. Have a look at this cutie from Jaguar: http://www.jaguar.com/jaguar-range/i-pace-concept-car/index.html

 

300 mile (480 km) range is probably where most EV will end up. For the rest of your wish list, easily done.

[mania]

Prediction from the cheap seats......

 

All this electric vehicle stuff is making the mistake of trying to move

via brute force much like our space programs mistake to  break thru gravity  with brute thrust

 

Someday someone will look for energy from a clean slate ignoring old tech

They will use something that exists all around us freely like  the geomagnetic field

 

They will surf over & with waves rather than try to swim thru them as they now do 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by mania

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

You grossly overestimated the power consumption. The cruising speed power consumption for a mid size car is about:

 

15 kW at 90 km/h

25 kW at 120 km/h

 

100 kW will have you flying in excess of 200 km/h. Have a safe trip.

 

I am not arguing with you and I am pro electric cars!

 

My point is that whereas using electrical energy directly or using fuel cells will require a huge increase in generating capacity!

 

BTW 100kW is 134bhp, 25kW is 33.5bhp. In addition to power to achieve a constant speed we need sufficient power to accelerate up hill with full load including a "ton" of batteries.

 

My calculation was wrong again - that's what you get for going on TV in the middles of the night!

 

230V ac is 325V peak

 

So, probably 12 banks of 25 batteries. The mass and volume is a serious issue.

 

Lithium Ion is much more efficient but still not good enough. We need a breakthrough here!

 

So, in conclusion, electric cars are indeed the future. Generating capacity and battery technology are the issues. Charging infrastructure is no problem. BUT many homes will not have the electrical capacity to install fast charging gear in the garage !

 

 

[Grouse]

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2014/11/bmw-reveal-500-kw-edrive-plug-in-hybrid.html?m=1

 

Note this is a hybrid

 

Range on batteries only is 100km

 

We've a long way to go ?

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, fruitman said:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/07/vw-new-china-only-electric-vehicle-new-brand-name/

 

Why would brake-pads last longer on an EV?? Those cars are very heavy because of all the batteries.

 

 

When an electric car slows the engine generates power and that slows the car without needing to use the brakes.

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2014/11/bmw-reveal-500-kw-edrive-plug-in-hybrid.html?m=1

 

Note this is a hybrid

 

Range on batteries only is 100km

 

We've a long way to go ?

 

The BMW 3-series plug-in hybrid are still in the very early infancy stage and yes at the moment they can barely crawl. They have thrown out the spare tyre and fitted a small battery pack in the trunk.

Future models will of course all have the batery integrated in the chassis.

The 3-series is on display at Central world, but the staff hardly knows anything about it. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by ExpatOilWorker

[Silurian]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

The BMW 3-series plug-in hybrid are still in the very early infancy stage and yes at the moment they can barely crawl. They have thrown out the spare tyre and fitted a small battery pack in the trunk.

Future models will of course all have the batery integrated in the chassis.

The 3-series is on display at Central world, but the staff hardly knows anything about it. 

 

Did you happen to see what was the price tag?

 

[fruitman]

In Munich BMW starts with 40 selfdriving taxi's. There's a driver for just in case the computer makes a mistake.

 

After munich other cities will follow. Except BKK i think, soidogs, falling coconuts, ghostdrivers, slalomming cars will be too hard for the computer i guess s.

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Silurian said:

 

Did you happen to see what was the price tag?

 

 

http://www.bmw.co.th/content/dam/bmw/marketTH/common/All Models/Price-List/BMW Price list BMW XPO 2016 Digital.pdf

 

So sad that all the 5-series have been reduced to a 2.0 l engine.

[Grouse]

Li Ion batteries now achieving about 0.4kWh/kg

 

400kWh would require 1 tonne of batteries

 

Need materials science breakthrough like the blue LED or something from Back to the Future!