The future of car driving is electric, say experts

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

http://www.bmw.co.th/content/dam/bmw/marketTH/common/All Models/Price-List/BMW Price list BMW XPO 2016 Digital.pdf

 

So sad that all the 5-series have been reduced to a 2.0 l engine.

 

Worth noting that NO BMW has less than 100kW....

[ExpatOilWorker]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

Li Ion batteries now achieving about 0.4kWh/kg

 

400kWh would require 1 tonne of batteries

 

Need materials science breakthrough like the blue LED or something from Back to the Future!

 

A 400 kWh battery pack would give you a range of 1,600-2,600 km depending on driving conditions. You are trying to pack so much energy, that it reminds me of this scene:

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

23 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Had to chuckle at that one when I see that a lot of people can't even keep it between the 2 lines when they park, especially back-in.  Don't get me wrong, it's a great concept.

 

And that brings up the question of compatibility.  If you're using standard extension cords, no problem.  But any kind of rapid charge system is probably going to need something specialized, heavier and more expensive.  And I can't even charge my Samsung phone on an IPhone charger.  And now they're going to USB C.  Imagine the $$ billions to spend keeping up with the standards as e-vehicles evolve.

 

Even Fix And Repaid Daily or Found On Road Dead is spending $ billions on EVs:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-motor-debt-idUSKBN13U20U

[impulse]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Even Fix And Repaid Daily or Found On Road Dead is spending $ billions on EVs:

 

A few months ago, I read that some of the Euro countries are going to require all electric passenger vehicles by 2030.  As I recall, the article was about Germany, but my memory isn't the best...

 

Adapt or die.

 

I'm looking forward to the entrepreneurs who will be selling conversion kits to turn an existing $2,000 clunker with a bad motor into an e-car.  Looks like the lowest price new one is around $30K without rebates and such.  That's a little stiff for us cheap bastards.

Edited December 6, 2016 by impulse

[ExpatOilWorker]

47 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

A few months ago, I read that some of the Euro countries are going to require all electric passenger vehicles by 2030.  As I recall, the article was about Germany, but my memory isn't the best...

 

Adapt or die.

 

I'm looking forward to the entrepreneurs who will be selling conversion kits to turn an existing $2,000 clunker with a bad motor into an e-car.  Looks like the lowest price new one is around $30K without rebates and such.  That's a little stiff for us cheap bastards.

 

They usually back peddle on long term predictions like these, but it is conceivable that one of the smaller European countries with no domestic auto industry, like Holland or Denmark, will be the first to implement such a law.

Keep in mind that cars stay 20 years on the road, so it will be a while from all the cars in the showroom are EV to we see the same picture on the road.

 

Retrofitting old clunkers? I never thought about that, but good point.  

[impulse]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

They usually back peddle on long term predictions like these, but it is conceivable that one of the smaller European countries with no domestic auto industry, like Holland or Denmark, will be the first to implement such a law.

Keep in mind that cars stay 20 years on the road, so it will be a while from all the cars in the showroom are EV to we see the same picture on the road.

 

Retrofitting old clunkers? I never thought about that, but good point.  

 

Here's the thread I was recalling.  My link is on post #5:  

 

I recalled "electric" but it's "zero emissions", which allows a few other alternatives.

https://www.energyvoice.com/otherenergy/112141/cars-germany-emission-free-2030/

 

The article claims it's a reprint from Bloomberg, which lent a little credibility, but you're right.  They often back pedal...

[ilostmypassword]

On 12/5/2016 at 3:07 PM, mania said:

Prediction from the cheap seats......

 

All this electric vehicle stuff is making the mistake of trying to move

via brute force much like our space programs mistake to  break thru gravity  with brute thrust

 

Someday someone will look for energy from a clean slate ignoring old tech

They will use something that exists all around us freely like  the geomagnetic field

 

They will surf over & with waves rather than try to swim thru them as they now do 

 

Magnetism is not a form of energy. It's a field.

[ilostmypassword]

On 12/5/2016 at 9:28 AM, impulse said:

 

Where are you going to get your renewable power?

 

It's a lot like running your car on recycled french fry oil from restaurants.  One or two guys do it, and they're visionaries out to save the planet.  (And everyone in the neighborhood starts craving some McD's fries)   The whole town does it, there isn't enough (free) recycled cooking oil to go around, we have to divert corn production from feeding the masses to making fuel, the masses can't afford corn any more and the visionaries can no longer find recycled cooking oil.  

 

If you're going to get your hydrogen from natural gas, why not just run them on natural gas?  The technology exists, the infrastructure to refill is already in place in many locations.

 

I'm all for electric cars for the vast majority of commuting.  (Not hydrogen until they get the cost/HP for fuel cells down and prove we can haul high pressure hydrogen in millions of autos without burning up a bunch of people).  But the electrical grid is already heavily loaded in lots of places, lots of us live in high rise apartments with no charging facilities, and I don't want to be locked into 1 car for commuting and a second car for long road trips, even though I could afford it.

 

Edit:  Still, my next car will probably be an electric.  Even though I make my living in the oil business.  I'm an engineer, and I'm hoping to build my own solar charging facility since solar panel prices are dropping so fast.  But I'm willing to concede compromises that the majority of the motoring public can't or won't (I'll be retired).  And I can afford some experimentation as a hobby.

Where electric grids are loaded, the peaks come during the day. At night, when most car charging would take place, there is plenty of slack.

[impulse]

45 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Where electric grids are loaded, the peaks come during the day. At night, when most car charging would take place, there is plenty of slack.

 

There is now.  Plug in a few million cars in a state like California and that picture would change.  It's one thing to be in on the bleeding edge and charge up a few thousand pioneers.  It's another to charge up a big percentage of the vehicles on the road.  When the sun isn't shining and the wind dies down for the evening.

 

I'm sure it can be done.  But it won't be a slam dunk.

 

Edit:  And God forbid you get another energy trader involved to manipulate the grid to extract $$ billions of extra money from consumers like Enron did- and pretty much bankrupted California doing it.  But that's just about unavoidable nowadays with the stroke they wield in DC.

Edited December 6, 2016 by impulse

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Magnetism is not a form of energy. It's a field.

 

Every couple has its moment in a field!

 

(for the physicists here)

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

There is now.  Plug in a few million cars in a state like California and that picture would change.  It's one thing to be in on the bleeding edge and charge up a few thousand pioneers.  It's another to charge up a big percentage of the vehicles on the road.  When the sun isn't shining and the wind dies down for the evening.

 

I'm sure it can be done.  But it won't be a slam dunk.

 

Edit:  And God forbid you get another energy trader involved to manipulate the grid to extract $$ billions of extra money from consumers like Enron did- and pretty much bankrupted California doing it.  But that's just about unavoidable nowadays with the stroke they wield in DC.

Would it? I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have any figures to back that up?

[balo]

If they can invent car batteries that can be recharged by solar panels attached to the roof of the car while driving , it would become a success. Then you don't have to stop and charge every 200 km or so. 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by balo

[mania]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Every couple has its moment in a field!

 

(for the physicists here)

 

Exactly applicable in this case

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, balo said:

If they can invent car batteries that can be recharged by solar panels attached to the roof of the car while driving , it would become a success. Then you don't have to stop and charge every 200 km or so. 

 

Solar about 1kW per square metre. 

 

100kW motor?

 

Large car!

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Would it? I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have any figures to back that up?

How about 160kWh batteries to be charged in 8 hours? Single phase 220V. Shall we say 100A?

 

Think about it

 

It's huge!

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

How about 160kWh batteries to be charged in 8 hours? Single phase 220V. Shall we say 100A?

 

Think about it

 

It's huge!

 

Correct, it would be a huge mistake to assume that all cars need a full charge ever night. Most might just need to top up 20 kWh (80-120 km) driven that day others might feed into the grid, taking advantage of peak hours price spikes and then recharge later.

[maewang99]

it's not just the future of car driving.... it's the future of Thai cooking which also uses some of the same stuff cars run on now too, yes? I'm referring to the publishing by the NSIDC today, December 6 in the USA.... cooking gas, along with benzene and diesel, comes from Bangkok, does it not? 

that kind of nails this whole thing down. electric cars are the future.


 

Edited December 7, 2016 by maewang99

[impulse]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Solar about 1kW per square metre. 

 

100kW motor?

 

Large car!

  

That's at 100% panel efficiency.  Last time I checked, they were advertising 15-20% peak efficiency.   That's going up, but still not where we need it for a self contained vehicle/charging system for the masses.  Though I'm sure some fanatics could make it work, just like the super-milers who get 150 MPG by driving weird.  

 

Still, as others have pointed out, cars sit still the vast majority of the time.  Adding a few hundred free watts while you're parked in the sun over the weekend and at the office may be enough to get to work and home without spending much (if any) on power.

 

But then you have to consider the damage done to the interior and the paint leaving it parked out in the sun.  Lots of factors to consider...

[oldcarguy]

I assume the electric buses swap out the battery banks to keep running all day ......

 

there is a VW bus in the factory museum that did that in the 70s  :)

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 5/12/2559 at 10:55 PM, Grouse said:

Li Ion batteries now achieving about 0.4kWh/kg

 

400kWh would require 1 tonne of batteries

 

Need materials science breakthrough like the blue LED or something from Back to the Future!

 

You might get 0.4 kWh/l, but only about 0.2 kWh/kg.

[Grouse]

https://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/30/new-battery-boasts-7-times-energy-density/

 

This is the sort of thing

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

You can charge your EV car at Central Chitlom for FREE while shopping.