CIA says Russia helped Donald Trump win the White House

[lannarebirth]

13 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

It's entirely possible that the Russians interfered with the US election as alleged, after all the US has been interfering with elections in other countries for decades.  But the problem is that there is no conceivable evidence that could be presented to prove the case.  What would evidence of hacking look like to us average citizens?  So, then it comes down to believing the CIA or other intelligence agencies, which in the past gave us the phoney Gulf of Tonkin incident to launch the Vietnam War and the phoney WMDs to launch the last Iraq War.  Why anyone would believe anything the CIA claimed is beyond me.

 

Can't stand Trump but I believe in the electoral system we have in place. Two things would convince me that a revolt by the electors would be warranted. 1) Evidence that the Russians (or anyone else) acted to change actual votes cast in the election. Or 2) Trump or someone working on his behalf colluded with the Russians (or anyone else) to break laws in an effort to change the election outcome.

 

Despite all the talk going on, I haven't seen or even heard any evidence or accusations that say the Russians did anything other than what a good investigative reporter ought to have done, which was to expose corruption and the thwarting of democracy in the Democratic primaries. If they or someone else broke the law while doing that , it should be stopped first and then punished. As should be the persons they exposed through their hacking.

[Langsuan Man]

Somewhere buried in these 10 pages someone posted that we can't trust the CIA's reports and conclusions since the FBI, which is supposedly the truth diviners has not agreed with the CIA's conclusions

 

Well today that is no longer the case:

 

Quote

FBI Backs CIA Claim Russian Hackers Aided Donald Trump’s Election
 

The FBI and CIA are now in agreement that the Russian government used hacking to disrupt the U.S. Presidential election in part to aid Donald Trump.

CIA Director John Brennan said in a memo to his staff that he met with FBI Director James B. Comey and Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr., and all three concurred on Russia’s involvement and motivation.

source:http://www.chron.com/entertainment/the-wrap/article/FBI-Backs-CIA-Claim-Russian-Hackers-Aided-Donald-10801468.php

[craigt3365]

I posted this in another topic, but worth a read.  Pretty much guaranteed Russia did the hack.  To what extent and why is the question.  But it did happen.   Good article from a reputable source worth a read.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/trump-russia-u-s-election/

Quote

 

After the election, at a House hearing on Nov. 17, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said the Intelligence Community did not release a statement until October — nearly four months after the DNC hack was publicly disclosed — because it wanted to have enough evidence before going public with such an allegation against Russia.

 

“We gave considerable thought to diming out Russia,” Clapper said. “With that statement, we waited until we felt we had sufficient basis for it and we did, both from a forensic and as well as other sources of intelligence that led us to that statement.”

 

 

[iReason]

Officials: Master Spy Vladimir Putin Now Directly Linked to US Hacking

 

"Ever the master spy, Russian President Vladimir Putin, a former KGB colonel, was personally involved in the hacking of

the Democratic National Committee and efforts to interfere in the American elections, U.S. and foreign intelligence officials tell ABC News."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/officials-master-spy-vladimir-putin-now-directly-linked/story?id=44210901

 

FBI in agreement with CIA that Russia aimed to help Trump win White House

 

"FBI Director James B. Comey and Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. are in agreement with a CIA assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election in part to help Donald Trump win the White House, officials disclosed Friday, as President Obama issued a public warning to Moscow that it could face retaliation."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-blames-putins-personal-grudge-against-her-for-election-interference/2016/12/16/12f36250-c3be-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html?utm_term=.cdac46d3bea9

[Linzz]

4 hours ago, iReason said:

Officials: Master Spy Vladimir Putin Now Directly Linked to US Hacking

 

"Ever the master spy, Russian President Vladimir Putin, a former KGB colonel, was personally involved in the hacking of

the Democratic National Committee and efforts to interfere in the American elections, U.S. and foreign intelligence officials tell ABC News."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/officials-master-spy-vladimir-putin-now-directly-linked/story?id=44210901

 

FBI in agreement with CIA that Russia aimed to help Trump win White House

 

"FBI Director James B. Comey and Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. are in agreement with a CIA assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election in part to help Donald Trump win the White House, officials disclosed Friday, as President Obama issued a public warning to Moscow that it could face retaliation."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-blames-putins-personal-grudge-against-her-for-election-interference/2016/12/16/12f36250-c3be-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html?utm_term=.cdac46d3bea9

 

The Washington Post is still campaigning for Hillary. James Clapper said there was no basis and that  US Intelligence  community does not have strong evidence that there has been any connection between WikiLeaks and Russia when testifying before the House Intelligence committee on Nov 17th. Now suddenly the Russians hacked the DNC. Either he lied before or is lying now, in which case he should be charged with perjury, then he would sing like a canary and the real truth would come out.

[craigt3365]

39 minutes ago, Linzz said:

 

The Washington Post is still campaigning for Hillary. James Clapper said there was no basis and that  US Intelligence  community does not have strong evidence that there has been any connection between WikiLeaks and Russia when testifying before the House Intelligence committee on Nov 17th. Now suddenly the Russians hacked the DNC. Either he lied before or is lying now, in which case he should be charged with perjury, then he would sing like a canary and the real truth would come out.

Not true.  Clapper has confirmed it was Russia.  Get your facts straight.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/trump-russia-u-s-election/

Quote

 

After the election, at a House hearing on Nov. 17, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said the Intelligence Community did not release a statement until October — nearly four months after the DNC hack was publicly disclosed — because it wanted to have enough evidence before going public with such an allegation against Russia.

 

“We gave considerable thought to diming out Russia,” Clapper said. “With that statement, we waited until we felt we had sufficient basis for it and we did, both from a forensic and as well as other sources of intelligence that led us to that statement.”

 

U.S. intelligence officials have provided little information on how they arrived at that conclusion. NBC News quoted an unnamed government official saying that the intelligence officials were able to determine Russia’s involvement based on the “signature” of the attacks, which “hackers may not have realized they left behind.”

 

 

[craigt3365]

42 minutes ago, Linzz said:

 

The Washington Post is still campaigning for Hillary. James Clapper said there was no basis and that  US Intelligence  community does not have strong evidence that there has been any connection between WikiLeaks and Russia when testifying before the House Intelligence committee on Nov 17th. Now suddenly the Russians hacked the DNC. Either he lied before or is lying now, in which case he should be charged with perjury, then he would sing like a canary and the real truth would come out.

From another fact checking site. 

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/19/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-blames-russia-putin-wikileaks-rele/
 

Quote

 

Clinton said, "We have 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military, who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyberattacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin, and they are designed to influence our election."

 

We don’t know how many separate investigations into the attacks they were. But the Director of National Intelligence, which speaks for the country’s 17 federal intelligence agencies, released a joint statement saying the intelligence community at large is confident that Russia is behind recent hacks into political organizations’ emails. The statement sourced the attacks to the highest levels of the Russian government and said they are designed to interfere with the current election.

 

We rate Clinton’s statement True.

 

 

[impulse]

On 12/14/2016 at 0:24 PM, Jingthing said:

From the typical American POV, Putin is an authoritarian dictator that totally controls the Russian media. trump (bizarrely) admires that kind of leader. 

 

So do Russians.  And he's THEIR leader, not America's.

 

Edit:  One of Americans' distorted views- we expect other countries' leaders to conform to our notion of good and evil and leadership.

Edited December 18, 2016 by impulse

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

So do Russians.  And he's THEIR leader, not America's.

 

Edit:  One of Americans' distorted views- we expect other countries' leaders to conform to our notion of good and evil and leadership.

Agreed, but one problem in Russia, all news outlets are controlled by the government.  They are spoon fed propaganda every day.  Opposition to the government is not allowed.  And the truth is rarely reported.  Luckily, that's not the case in the US.  Thank goodness.

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed, but one problem in Russia, all news outlets are controlled by the government.  They are spoon fed propaganda every day.  Opposition to the government is not allowed.  And the truth is rarely reported.  Luckily, that's not the case in the US.  Thank goodness.

 

Their press is controlled by the government.  Ours is controlled dominated by a few white haired billionaires and their advertisers- who also control the purse strings of government.  Potato, potato.  Neither one of us get the truth- unless we go outside the mainstream press.  And even then, it's tough to tell with so much faux reporting nowadays.

 

Edit:  Fixed it...  It's subtle, though.

Edited December 18, 2016 by impulse

[craigt3365]

Just now, impulse said:

 

Their press is controlled by the government.  Ours is controlled by a few white haired billionaires and their advertisers.  Potato, potato.  Neither one of us get the truth- unless we go outside the mainstream press.  And even then, it's tough to tell with so much faux reporting nowadays.

Sure, some of the big sites are controlled by white haired billionaires.  But not all.  Easy to go outside the MSM and still get good news reports.  Just have to search a bit.  That's impossible in Russia.

 

But yes, have to be careful.  Many non-MSM sites claim to be truthful, but aren't.  Just click bait.

[Nilats]

4 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed, but one problem in Russia, all news outlets are controlled by the government.  They are spoon fed propaganda every day.  Opposition to the government is not allowed.  And the truth is rarely reported.  Luckily, that's not the case in the US.  Thank goodness.

 

This statement doesn't make sense. Internet is widely available in Russia - WIFI, 3g and everything else. Facebook, Youtube and then also VK(russian facebook) are not censored by the government so when it comes to getting to know what's going on in the world for an average citizen( or a visitor) - the sky is the limit. All western news media outlets are also available in Russia. People are free to choose what sources they get their information from.

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Sure, some of the big sites are controlled by white haired billionaires.  But not all.  Easy to go outside the MSM and still get good news reports.  Just have to search a bit.  That's impossible in Russia.

 

But yes, have to be careful.  Many non-MSM sites claim to be truthful, but aren't.  Just click bait.

 

This topic is a perfect case in point.  The CIA claims the Russians helped Trump win.  Is it true, or is it CIA propaganda to further their goal of keeping an enemy alive to stay relevant (and funded)?  I'd like to believe my government, but the different factions don't even believe each other.  And decades down the line, we so often find out the truth is miles away from what they told us before we invaded _______________  (choose your own quagmire), or toppled the ______________ (fill in your own regime secretly torpedoed on our behalf by CIA dirty tricks).

 

Which is another reason I find it rich that anyone is upset about Russian interference.  It's karma.  And that's if it's true.  It's just as likely a false flag op.

Edited December 18, 2016 by impulse

[craigt3365]

16 minutes ago, Nilats said:

 

This statement doesn't make sense. Internet is widely available in Russia - WIFI, 3g and everything else. Facebook, Youtube and then also VK(russian facebook) are not censored by the government so when it comes to getting to know what's going on in the world for an average citizen( or a visitor) - the sky is the limit. All western news media outlets are also available in Russia. People are free to choose what sources they get their information from.

Agreed!  But how many sit and just watch the TV news?  Or read the local newspaper?  I know in the US, lots do, even though they have the internet. 

 

As far as freedom of the press, Russia ranks 148 out of 180.  Not so good.

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Russia
 

Quote

 

The Committee to Protect Journalists states that Russia was the country with the 10th largest number of journalists killed since 1992, 26 of them since the beginning of 2000, including four from Novaya Gazeta.^[5] It also placed Russia at number 9 in the world for numbers of journalists killed with complete impunity.^[6]

 

In December 2014, a Russian investigative site published e-mails, leaked by the hackers' group Shaltai Boltai, which indicated close links between Timur Prokopenko, a member of Vladimir Putin's administration, and Russian journalists, some of whom published Kremlin-prepared articles under their own names.^[7]

 

 

 

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

This topic is a perfect case in point.  The CIA claims the Russians helped Trump win.  Is it true, or is it CIA propaganda to further their goal of keeping an enemy alive to stay relevant (and funded)?  I'd like to believe my government, but the different factions don't even believe each other.  And decades down the line, we so often find out the truth is miles away from what they told us before we invaded _______________  (choose your own quagmire), or toppled the ______________ (fill in your own regime secretly torpedoed on our behalf by CIA dirty tricks).

 

Which is another reason I find it rich that anyone is upset about Russian interference.  It's karma.  And that's if it's true.  It's just as likely a false flag op.

What I've read is the CIA claims Russia hacked into various servers in the US.  I think they've yet to determine if it was to impact the election or not.  Some media sites are using that as click bait though.  As one source said, unless you have an agent sitting in a room in Moscow, this will never be 100% proven. 

 

With so many agencies and private organizations saying the hack occurred from within Russia, it's definitely not a false flag op.  And as you say, the US has done the same to Russia.  So why is everybody trying to deny Russia did this?  They've hacked into election systems of other countries in the past.  They've hacked into other US computers in the past.  Follow the dots...

[CharlieK]

didn't the CIA also help Trump win? two days or so before the election they came out and said they were looking at Hilary's emails again to look for evidence of corruption. Now they say Russia helped Trump win!

 

Really these people are looking rather foolish. 

[impulse]

Just now, CharlieK said:

didn't the CIA also help Trump win? two days or so before the election they came out and said they were looking at Hilary's emails again to look for evidence of corruption. Now they say Russia helped Trump win!

 

Really these people are looking rather foolish. 

 

CIA... or FBI?

[CharlieK]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

CIA... or FBI?

 

both possibly 

[Linzz]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

1 hour ago, Linzz said:

 

The Washington Post is still campaigning for Hillary. James Clapper said there was no basis and that  US Intelligence  community does not have strong evidence that there has been any connection between WikiLeaks and Russia when testifying before the House Intelligence committee on Nov 17th. Now suddenly the Russians hacked the DNC. Either he lied before or is lying now, in which case he should be charged with perjury, then he would sing like a canary and the real truth would come out.

Not true.  Clapper has confirmed it was Russia.  Get your facts straight.

 

 

I was simply referring to this:

 

"Clapper testified before the House Intelligence Committee on Nov. 17 and said there is insufficient information available to show Moscow and WikiLeaks coordinating their activities."

 

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-wikileakes-connection-russia/

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

With so many agencies and private organizations saying the hack occurred from within Russia, it's definitely not a false flag op.  And as you say, the US has done the same to Russia.  So why is everybody trying to deny Russia did this?  They've hacked into election systems of other countries in the past.  They've hacked into other US computers in the past.  Follow the dots...

 

Hell.  Everyone hacks everyone, every day.  Allies, adversaries, everyone.  We do it with impunity so it's a little disingenuous to get all righteous about it.  It's that "people in glass houses" thing.

 

I'd be amazed if the Russkies weren't hacking US servers all the time.   But what they're not telling us is whether the nature or level of hacking changed around the election.

[craigt3365]

14 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

CIA... or FBI?

FBI.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/spinning-the-fbi-letter/

 

And Comey may be prosecuted for violating the Hatch act.  We'll see...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/31/james-comey-fbi-hillary-clinton-hatch-act-election

 

[craigt3365]

16 minutes ago, Linzz said:

 

I was simply referring to this:

 

"Clapper testified before the House Intelligence Committee on Nov. 17 and said there is insufficient information available to show Moscow and WikiLeaks coordinating their activities."

 

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-wikileakes-connection-russia/

Agreed.  But he's 100% positive it was Russia who did the hack.  From your article:

 

Quote

The intelligence community and Department of Homeland Security concluded in October that the Russian government was responsible for cyber attacks against U.S. political computer systems, including the Democratic National Committee’s networks, to influence the 2016 election.

 

The question you posted pertains to Russia potentially giving the info to Wikileaks.  Which I guess has yet to be proven?

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

FBI.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/spinning-the-fbi-letter/

 

And Comey may be prosecuted for violating the Hatch act.  We'll see...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/31/james-comey-fbi-hillary-clinton-hatch-act-election

 

 

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since that Guardian article, published the week before the election.

 

The timing of which could have conspiracy wingnuts (I am one) wondering if the British press was doing their part to influence the election.

[craigt3365]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since that Guardian article, published the week before the election.

 

The timing of which could have conspiracy wingnuts (I am one) wondering if the British press was doing their part to influence the election.

This hack has caused a huge mess.  It did just want Putin wanted it to do.  Cause problems.

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

This hack has caused a huge mess.  It did just want Putin wanted it to do.  Cause problems.

 

My bet would be it's just a tit for tat.  Obviously, it may be decades before we know which CIA/NSA tat they're getting even for.

 

Eventually, when the Cold War dinosaurs retire and the new generation in intelligence catches up with technology, I hope we don't hear of a gentlemen's agreement between them that limits the damage they do to each other's countries with hacking.  Kind of like the gentlemen's agreement we'll never officially hear of that's kept them (mostly) from killing each other's spies throughout the Cold War.

[Nilats]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed!  But how many sit and just watch the TV news?  Or read the local newspaper?  I know in the US, lots do, even though they have the internet. 

 

As far as freedom of the press, Russia ranks 148 out of 180.  Not so good.

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Russia
 

 

 

 

Really people still buy newspapers and watch television? I think main media in Russia is the social media at the moment - it really is huge. I don't know anybody who doesn't know how to google information, use youtube, periscope, vk, facebook and so on. There's no information blockade in Russia at all as some Western Sources continuously try to imply. If people choose to read local newspapers or watch only domestic news channels - that's their choice, nobody is forcing them.

[craigt3365]

34 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

My bet would be it's just a tit for tat.  Obviously, it may be decades before we know which CIA/NSA tat they're getting even for.

 

Eventually, when the Cold War dinosaurs retire and the new generation in intelligence catches up with technology, I hope we don't hear of a gentlemen's agreement between them that limits the damage they do to each other's countries with hacking.  Kind of like the gentlemen's agreement we'll never officially hear of that's kept them (mostly) from killing each other's spies throughout the Cold War.

Not sure I agree with that.  The US has never put hacked data up on the internet.  They've used it internally, but never published it.

 

Putin is a cold war dinosaur.  A former KGB field agent.  Who now runs Russia. 

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, Nilats said:

 

Really people still buy newspapers and watch television? I think main media in Russia is the social media at the moment - it really is huge. I don't know anybody who doesn't know how to google information, use youtube, periscope, vk, facebook and so on. There's no information blockade in Russia at all as some Western Sources continuously try to imply. If people choose to read local newspapers or watch only domestic news channels - that's their choice, nobody is forcing them.

Have you been to the smaller cities outside Moscow?  It's like going back 30 years.  TV antennas on top of houses, small gardens out front, old cars, old people walking down the roads.  I actually quite like it, but it's definitely not modern.

[Nilats]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Have you been to the smaller cities outside Moscow?  It's like going back 30 years.  TV antennas on top of houses, small gardens out front, old cars, old people walking down the roads.  I actually quite like it, but it's definitely not modern.

I was born in one of those smaller cities. Haven't been to Russia for 20 years. I just go by actually observing the Russian Social Media itself. The reach is much wider than you think. Internet usage is pretty wide and common in all major cities, fast speed and mobile. I hear it's also very cheap and fast compared to western countries.

 

Just as an example - there's a youtuber Kamikadzedead or whatever - he lives in Moscow just a few blocks away from the Kremlin and broadcasts in Russian language on youtube. His videos are full of vulgar criticisms and profanities against the government and all the corruption in the country. It's painful to watch sometimes - it's too vulgar for me, he really does his most to embarrass the current Russian leadership and the ruling party - and the guy is well known in Russia. I've seen him attend a few of the talk shows on the government channels as well where he was given the microphone. And he has about a million subscribers on Youtube - I'm sure the Russian government know who he is and they are not taking him down. To say that Putin keeps a tight grip on the media in Russia is not entirely accurate. They make little effort to police the internet for example.

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, Nilats said:

I was born in one of those smaller cities. Haven't been to Russia for 20 years. I just go by actually observing the Russian Social Media itself. The reach is much wider than you think. Internet usage is pretty wide and common in all major cities, fast speed and mobile. I hear it's also very cheap and fast compared to western countries.

 

Just as an example - there's a youtuber Kamikadzedead or whatever - he lives in Moscow just a few blocks away from the Kremlin and broadcasts in Russian language on youtube. His videos are full of vulgar criticisms and profanities against the government and all the corruption in the country. It's painful to watch sometimes - it's too vulgar for me, he really does his most to embarrass the current Russian leadership and the ruling party - and the guy is well known in Russia. I've seen him attend a few of the talk shows on the government channels as well where he was given the microphone. And he has about a million subscribers on Youtube - I'm sure the Russian government know who he is and they are not taking him down. To say that Putin keeps a tight grip on the media in Russia is not entirely accurate. They make little effort to police the internet for example.

I've not been in a few years, but then, I'd be surprised if some of the towns I visited had much access to the internet.  Probably not much different than when you were there 20 years ago.  Very small and very poor cities.  We're talking outside Moscow.  But yes, many do have it.

 

Let's get back to the topic.