raro Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Had yesterday the scariest moment of 30 years of driving. Approaching a red light on the highway, braking as usual and.... Nothing. Car won't stop. Three, four times pumping the pedals and brakes came back a bit, just enough to stop without crash. Luckily there was a garage about 1 km down the road and they had a look at it. The screw holding the brakepads came off, this picture from today when it was all put together again (other side actually, but same assembly). The screw with the pink dot was simply no longer there. Service was done every 10,000 km by Honda dealers. The car has a bit of mileage (275k to be precise...) but hey! so for all of you Civic drivers, maybe stress this upon your next visit at the garage. It's not nice when you realize that your car won't stop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 They forgot to tighten the bolt...So it worked loose over time and made an exit I reckon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Are you sure you have not upset anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Thats a 91 to 97 Civic rear caliper, sure had a few 10K services over the 275 k all stamped in the book.Must look like my passport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyarddog Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Good news, your rotors are in excellant condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koo Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 16 hours ago, raro said: Three, four times pumping the pedals and brakes came back a bit, just enough to stop without crash. And I thought driving schools taught how to brake with the engine and gearbox in case normal brakes fail. Also, normally the brake pedal affects the front brakes, and you can still use the handbrake for rear brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) 53 minutes ago, koo said: And I thought driving schools taught how to brake with the engine and gearbox in case normal brakes fail. Also, normally the brake pedal affects the front brakes, and you can still use the handbrake for rear brakes. Major question, Raro - you should have two hydraulic brake circuits - sorry, you HAVE two hydraulic brake circuits - even failure of one circuit, one still working should provide enough braking for 90% of stops, possibly with higher pedal pressure, & also perhaps a bit of a pull to one side or the other. You need to ask Honda - P.S. Glad to hear you have started to use the brakes, at least occasionally - P.P.S. Hey, nice pink dot, Raro! Edited December 29, 2016 by DekDaeng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F4UCorsair Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) 49 minutes ago, koo said: And I thought driving schools taught how to brake with the engine and gearbox in case normal brakes fail. Also, normally the brake pedal affects the front brakes, and you can still use the handbrake for rear brakes. The brake pedal always operates BOTH front and back brakes, hydraullically. The hand brake usually operates back brakes, via a cable. Edited December 29, 2016 by F4UCorsair edit typos but unable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Actually, Raro, you need to get your master cylinder checked - it appears that the front right and the back left are one hydraulic circuit, the FL & BR the other. Complete brake failure means the master cylinder is shot, too. Or at least needs rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goingmad Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 If you do not service your car every 5,000 km, for oil changes. What do you expect ? I change my oil every two months. For extra 100 baht they inspect brakes etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalchaos Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) Not sure about Honda Civics, but I own a couple of Honda motorbikes and if you look at the service manuals for many of the servicing operations Honda actually specify adding Loctite BLUE to many of their bolts during the service. (I had one of those bolts vibrate loose on an MSX a month ago, luckily I found it before it dropped out and applied some threadlock) If like me you like to make sure things are safe and correct then you might expect Honda service to actually do what the manual says. I was down at Niyom Panich, an authorised Honda dealer and service centre and I asked them for some Loctite BLUE threadlock - They had no idea what I was on about, they offered to sell me a two pack liquid metal epoxy! I thought maybe it was my translation or poor Thai until I went to get two new wheel bearings installed on my sons MSX - They layed the bike wheels down on the concrete floor and then proceded to hammer the wheel bearings in using a steel hammer and a spark plug spanner! Not a sign of a bench press or drift, never even bothered to add grease! (I had to fix it later at home) They are BUTCHERS. So do not expect the same level of education or training that you expect in a "Normal" country. Edited December 29, 2016 by Generalchaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalchaos Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 44 minutes ago, DekDaeng said: Actually, Raro, you need to get your master cylinder checked - it appears that the front right and the back left are one hydraulic circuit, the FL & BR the other. Complete brake failure means the master cylinder is shot, too. Or at least needs rebuilding. What rubbish, if the brake caliper drops off then it doesn't matter how much you press the brakes the fluid will just take the path of least resistance and the secondary circuit will do virtually nothing, the brakes will not be two entirely separate circuits, they will be LINKED as are most Honda setups. They are not totally independent. And as for the stupid comment from another poster about using engine braking or using a handbrake to stop the car......I'd love to see you try when you panic when the brakes fail! The handbrake will be lucky if it stops you in 30 yards if you are doing 60. as for engine braking, lets see you do that in a queue of traffic when the car in front stops and you are 5 yards behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Generalchaos said: What rubbish, if the brake caliper drops off then it doesn't matter how much you press the brakes the fluid will just take the path of least resistance and the secondary circuit will do virtually nothing, the brakes will not be two entirely separate circuits, they will be LINKED as are most Honda setups. They are not totally independent. What rubbish, they are totally independent, on the pressure side. They do share a master cylinder reservoir, on the low pressure side. There is enough travel designed into the pedal movement to allow failure of one side - the pedal should just drop lower, then the good circuit pressurizes. Diagrams from civicx.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiWai Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalchaos Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 1 hour ago, DekDaeng said: What rubbish, they are totally independent, on the pressure side. They do share a master cylinder reservoir, on the low pressure side. There is enough travel designed into the pedal movement to allow failure of one side - the pedal should just drop lower, then the good circuit pressurizes. Diagrams from civicx.com. The secondary assembly will do nothing when there is complete failure - NOTE THE PROPORTIONING VALVES! IT is a combined brake, it is not INDEPENDANT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tandor Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 9 hours ago, transam said: They forgot to tighten the bolt...So it worked loose over time and made an exit I reckon... ...looks like a fairly new disc..plenty of meat on it...maybe they didn't tension the bolt when it was reassembled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkski Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Maybe they forgot the bolt. Just took awhile for the caliper to rotate . But I still don't see how the pads aren't still being held open so I don't know why it was massive failure. That pink means to torque me stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkski Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Maybe they forgot the bolt. Just took awhile for the caliper to rotate . But I still don't see how the pads aren't still being held open so I don't know why it was massive failure. That pink means to torque me stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madusa Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 On 29/12/2016 at 0:43 AM, koo said: And I thought driving schools taught how to brake with the engine and gearbox in case normal brakes fail. Also, normally the brake pedal affects the front brakes, and you can still use the handbrake for rear brakes. Would the gear box be damaged badly if you use gear to brake? I know it is effective to use gear. And does the handbrake strong enough to brake in this case?If you are going at a slow speed I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkski Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 You can down shift hard with no problem but in a panic as I experienced once when a hose burst you just think press harder. Pumping was a good save by OP. Hand brake will lock up the rears. Surely everyone plays with this for fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maoro2013 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 7 hours ago, koo said: And I thought driving schools taught how to brake with the engine and gearbox in case normal brakes fail. Also, normally the brake pedal affects the front brakes, and you can still use the handbrake for rear brakes. Yes maybe but that is not enough to stop you in a hurry. Funny thus was noticed earlier, a bit of sloppiness in the pedal!! We don't know all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Generalchaos said: The secondary assembly will do nothing when there is complete failure - NOTE THE PROPORTIONING VALVES! IT is a combined brake, it is not INDEPENDANT! "Diagonal split systems were used initially on American Motors automobiles in the 1967 production year. The right front and left rear are served by one actuating piston while the left front and the right rear are served, exclusively, by a second actuating piston (both pistons pressurize their respective coupled lines from a single foot pedal). If either circuit fails, the other, with at least one front wheel braking (the front brakes provide most of the speed reduction) remains intact to stop the mechanically damaged vehicle. By the 1970s, diagonally split systems had become common among automobiles sold in the United States. This system was developed with front-wheel-drive cars' suspension design to maintain better control and stability during a system failure. The diameter and length of the master cylinder has a significant effect on the performance of the brake system. A larger diameter master cylinder delivers more hydraulic fluid to the caliper pistons, yet requires more brake pedal force and less brake pedal stroke to achieve a given deceleration. A smaller diameter master cylinder has the opposite effect. A master cylinder may also use differing diameters between the two sections to allow for increased fluid volume to one set of caliper pistons or the other. A proportioning valve may be used to reduce the pressure to the rear brakes under heavy braking. This limits the rear braking to reduce the chances of locking up the rear brakes, and greatly lessens the chances of a spin." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_brake Edited December 29, 2016 by DekDaeng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacko45k Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Yeah beware of absent minded mechanics .... my truck came back with the battery connectors just pushed over the terminals and the battery clamps not on. Pre-long-trip checks by me found that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Honda would be appalled about this,funny there's no story about their reaction To this complaint,the details are on their computer including the Technician in charge of pass offSent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raro Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 Well observed with the brake disks, they were replaced a while ago. How to do engine braking with an automatic gear box? Yeah, could have gone in manual mode and use the pedal shift, but hey, that was a bit of a situation. Whatever the problem was, it caused a leak at the rear wheel and the brake fluid ran out faster than you could fill it back in. And yes, the car went for the past 100,000 km (or more) to Honda every 10,000 km. Before that I used a garage run by a German guy, but they closed down. The service book is fully stamped [emoji16]The brake disks were done by Honda iirc. Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Thaivisa Connect mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 So you haven't had it from new ,with 100% Honda service ,that's the main prob.Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Raro, did you ask Honda why the split system did not work? It should ensure that you have at least 50% braking, even with total failure on one side. Read my earlier post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sup Slick Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 On 1/2/2017 at 2:50 PM, raro said: Well observed with the brake disks, they were replaced a while ago. How to do engine braking with an automatic gear box? Yeah, could have gone in manual mode and use the pedal shift, but hey, that was a bit of a situation. Whatever the problem was, it caused a leak at the rear wheel and the brake fluid ran out faster than you could fill it back in. And yes, the car went for the past 100,000 km (or more) to Honda every 10,000 km. Before that I used a garage run by a German guy, but they closed down. The service book is fully stamped The brake disks were done by Honda iirc. Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Thaivisa Connect mobile app Engine braking with an auto - pull the selector down to 2nd, or 1st, regardless of speed. Grab the handbrake and keep the button pressed, pull that sucker. Leak at the rear wheel like you describe? No idea how it was drivable and nobody noticed. Literally a disaster waiting to happen. IMO very weird that the caliper 'fell off' - that just does not happen unless they flat out did not bolt it back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 12/29/2016 at 5:44 PM, Goingmad said: If you do not service your car every 5,000 km, for oil changes. What do you expect ? I change my oil every two months. For extra 100 baht they inspect brakes etc. You give them 100 baht and they tell you they inspected the brakes. That's too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DekDaeng Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 3:06 PM, DekDaeng said: Raro, did you ask Honda why the split system did not work? It should ensure that you have at least 50% braking, even with total failure on one side. Read my earlier post? Rainer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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