Thai visa help retire and work too.

[DaveYo]

Greetings all, I am currently here in USA and trying to figure the best way for me to retire in Thailand, and be with my girl whom I hopefully can get married once over there.  I plan on shipping my personal stuff such as furniture and equiptment via ocean route.  I should be getting my Disability checks shortly and also draw interest money from my investment which will put me right around the 65,000 baht per month threshold as one of their requirements, and maintain two other requirements now being imposed which is having 20,000 dollars in any USA Bank, and having 400,000 Baht in any Thailand Bank account- money coming in from USA.  I intend to either buy a condo or hopefully get a Banana House built there under my hopeful soon to be wifes name, temporary of course.  Getting a car also is being planned since transport over there can start to cost you baht in your pants.  Been to Thailand twice already so I have seen what some Thai people do think of foreigners, especially when they smile.  True to form, I also have met honest Thais, yet what is behind the honesty is the danger all of us foreigners must be made aware of constantly.   Anyway I plan on staying in Thailand for good till I pass my last breath.  I also hope to have a family as she and I are planning at the same token too.  The thing I need to know is how can I go about getting the Visa done with the least hassle, yet be legal mind you, and somehow get a work permit to cover myself in case I would like to say - open up a shop and employ some Thai people and make money at the same time.  Doing so will help supplement some of my expenses over there, and also can have a chance on getting a Residency permit within 3 years.  The consulate here in Chicago makes it difficult for me to get a longer visa than 90 Days, and the one in Houston will give you a multi entry visa good for every 6 months.  I know about the visa runs from what I have read, but golly what a pain it is.  Bottom line is what can I do in the proper order to make sure I can have everything without a hassle, and get something going for me without all the restrictions now being implemented just recently from Thailand Immigrations.  In case  you have not heard, I do suggest you call them, because now they are double checking your income to meet the required standards as per se.  I hope to move to Thailand by September or October for good.  So any advice I am open for suggestions and sure can use good sound help here.  I would appreciate it very much.  Also folks, be careful of your Background, they are now double checking for verifications, and trust me if they catch you, out you go, - as I have been told because of recent events around the world.  All the countries are up in arms and taking security as number one regarding any foreigner who travels.  Depends on ones checkered past, and the amount of time etc, since the incident and kind of incident, they say they are checking it like a magnifying glass.   Thanks  Kop Kun.

[lopburi3]

"1.6 Not being allowed to work in Thailand"

You do NOT want a retirement visa if you plan to work.  Get the Houston visa now and after marriage, if not able to obtain business visa you can get one for support of your wife and extend incountry with only requirement being 250k in a bank account here.  You could even come here without a visa, get married, go to Penang and get a non-immigrant visa and then start the extension process.

[DaveYo]

Lopburi, i am a bit confused here, you say 250K -is this in Thai amount or in USA amount and which Bank should be having the money in the first place?  I have an account there, so before I go should I start wiring the money to this account, for purposes of that Bank in Thailand to have records of money coming from USA as another one of their conditional requirements that they have for purchases or property or Home or Condo etc.  If it is USA amount I am Dead for all practical purposes business wise because I wanted to start small first like they have here and grow as it goes along and it gets better.   If it is in Thai amount, then I am in Business so to speak and at least be able to maintain my financial requirements at the current time -Thai rules.  Also can you explain yourself a bit more as to of the non Immigrant visa, which one should I choose first? and after that what is the next one or thing I should do to continue my so called wayward ways of living in Thailand.  Also by the way which place in Thailand is the easiest in regards to Visas without them asking so many questions or giving you hassles, and maintaining your personal privacy and sort of go thru the cracks doing it the backdoor way without dealing with the harsh requirements up front, yet maintain it legally when it comes time to get that Residency Permit in my hands once and for all.  By the way would you suggest starting off as Tourist and make the move for Non Immigrant once there to avoid the hassles here in USA?  If so which Non Immigrant Visa should I pick.  Also how can I get this work permit in by passing the requirement needing to have some company hire you and all that behind it.  In USA, they do not force you to get a job first before such being issued.  Need a ton of help on this topic concerning getting that work permit.     Thanks

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Confused ...me too. You say RETIRE and WORK PERMIT....it has to be one or the other. Once you are married you need around 250,000 baht in a bank in Thailand, and you need to transfer the funds from abroad. At the time you apply for the 12 month extension you'll need a letter from the bank evidencing the funds, and each year you renew another letter.The US$20,000 in a US bank is not a requirement.

[lopburi3]

As the Dr. says the 250k is in baht.  The 20k in USD seems to be the normal 800k in baht but for issue of the retirement visa in the USA you don't have to have the money in Thailand until later.  Do not believe the other information from the Consulate is true (that you need 400k in Thai bank and 65k income) in addition to this 800k.  But in any case you do not want a retirement visa if you intend to work.  And if residence permit is your goal you might not want a work visa unless you set up your own company our you are very sure you will not lose the job/visa.

All you need to do is arrive/marry to qualify for non-immigrant visa issued on simple trip to a country nearby.  Keep up the transfers into your Thai account.  When 90 days about up apply for support visa.  This is only approved in one location so there is no 'easy' place.  Although in the past finance may not have been checked closely suspect that it is now (if that is what you are asking).  But if you can show money coming into Thailand from a US account don't believe there would be much more required and if you work here believe that requirement would not apply.  The work permit is job specific so that is the reason it can not be issued without a job first.  Once an offer has been made and papers signed you apply for the work permit.  You can employ people to help you in the process if you feel better doing that (there are many legal firms that do this using the front door).  You have everything to lose if you try looking for back doors.

[DaveYo]

Ok Lopburi, just read your notes.  Having 250K Thai baht is not a problem.  I see mentioned here every year? Or is this that monthly payments etc.  Now, Yes I can get married, no problem, question is which Non Immigrant Visa should I pick.  I take that the Retirement Visa will all but kill me for any chance of doing something in Thailand.  I'd prefer to do something obviously and work a bit too or I would drop doing nothing.  Residency is my primary goal. With that it is clear sailing for me short of Citizenship.  I would be satisfied at that stage.  Which location you mention is the only one that approves the support Visa?  Is there a company or some lawyer that can perhaps get me straight with getting the work permit?  I understand better to do up front than behind back doors.  Need a company or lawyer willing to get me taken care of concerning Work Permit, and possibly start a small business to avoid future possible embarassment should authorities ever question purposes.  So I believe you possibly say come on down to Thailand as Tourist first and then do the Non-Immigrant Visa process?  Am i correct on this assessment.  I can get the 90 Visa as tourist without a problem, already had it before.  Also it is required to get Visa now from Consulate leaving USA.  No freebie there.  Other than that, I think I will be ok once i know precisely what to do, and how to go about it.  So far so good.  Just a few more details, such as Work and kind of Non-Immigrant Visa and name of contact in Thailand to get Work permit papers in order.  Just found out that my girl in Thailand knew about the Penang run.  She sure surprised me. Hehehehehe. :blues:

[lopburi3]

I don't know your passport so you might want to check with your representative Embassy here in Thailand as to what they require to issue you the paper allowing marriage.  You would not want to arrive and then need something you forgot to bring.  But you seem to know you can get married so would just come - look around - marry - get non immigrant visa and then start extension process using whatever class of visa fits a few months from now after you talk with people here.

As for purpose of work permit your wife will fit that bill.  We all know that takes money.

Immigration is located in Bangkok and all paperwork goes there after the initial visa process from a Consulate.  There are branch offices throughout the Kingdom but they all work for the Bangkok office and send paperwork there for approvals.

[caughtintheact]

Howdy Dave,

I want to try and clarify a couple of items.

First let's discuss retirement, and as lopburi3 says this means that you cannot legally work.

1.  "best way for me to retire in Thailand"

You have to be at least 50 years old to get a retirement visa

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/visa/retirementvisa.html

2.  . Documents required for the Application (same source as above). (requiring 3 sets in original)

2.1 A passport valid no less than one year and a half.

(Means that you need at least 1.5 years remaining on your passport)

2.2 Three copies of a Visa Application Form (with photos).

2.3 A Personal Data Form.

(You get this at Immigration on Soi Suan Plu off Sathorn Road in Bangkok)

2.4 A copy of a bank statement showing a deposit at the amount equal to no less than 800,000 Baht, OR an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly salary of no less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income of no less than 800,000 Baht a year.

(You need either 800,000 in a bank in Thailand, OR proof of income from abroad of at least B65,000 per month (Use B40=US$1 for the rate of exchange).  

(You can also have a combination of the two, for example, if your monthly income from abroad is the equivalent of B40,000 per month, multiply that by 12 months (B480,000 per year), and then you only need to put the difference between B800,000 and 480,000 in a local bank account (B320,000).

Note: The amount of B250,000 does not apply.  You have to have been here continuously since before 1998 to qualify, and the amount required is either B20,000 per month or B200,000 in a local bank account - I happen to be under this grandfathered clause.

 Tip:  Never show more or less than asked for unless it is unavoidable Example:  I have to show my retirement pay statement which is more than B65,000 per month, but I don't mention other income like social security. Immigration is a bureaucracy - just be patient, follow the rules to the letter, smile, be respectful to the Immigration officials, never get angry, and you will be OK)

2.5 In the case of the bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is to be shown as well.

This is a letter you get from the local bank where you have deposited the lump sum.  I've found it easiest to use a bank that has a branch near Immigration, like Bangkok Bank or Thai Farmers Bank (now called Kasikorn Thai Bank).  I use the latter and getting the letter is no hassle at all.  It costs about B100.  

2.6 Verification stating that the applicant has no criminal record issued from the county of his/her nationality or residence (the verification shall be valid for no more than 3 months).

(I'm not sure about this having been away from the USA for most of my life, but I think your local police station should be able to provide such a letter.)

2.7 A medical certificate issued from the country where the application is submitted, showing no prohibitive diseases as indicatted in the Ministerial Regulation No. 14 (B.E. 2535) (the certificate shall be valid for no more than 3 months).

(You local doctor in the USA can provide this) (Also see http://www.thai-la.net/no-14.htm - you might need to include a SARS-free item on the medical certificate now)

If you want to work:

As lopburi3 says, if you want to work, do not apply for a retirement visa.  Although it may be possible to convert from a retirement visa to a dependent visa in order to work, I cannot confirm whether or not it is possible, and whether or not the Immigration folks will make it easy or difficult.  Since I doubt that it is a run of the mill procedure, one can be pretty sure that it will not immediately be met with a receptive eye.

So your best bet to work is to get a non-quota visa, come to Thailand, get married, and then

Here's what the U.S. Embassy has to say on the subject:

Information for American Citizens

Embassy of the United States of America

Consular Section

95 Wireless Road

Bangkok, Thailand 10330

tel. 205-4049, fax 205-4103

Embassy of the United States of America

Consular Section

95 Wireless Road

Bangkok, Thailand 10330

tel. 205-4049, fax 205-4103

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MARRIAGE IN THAILAND

Information for American Citizens

A legal marriage in Thailand consists of both parties registering their marriage in person with the local Thai Amphur (Civil Registry Office). The United States does recognize the validity of such a marriage.

A. TO MARRY A THAI CITIZEN YOU MUST FOLLOW THESE STEPS:

1. Complete an affidavit at the American Embassy. The affidavit form, available upon request, includes all of the information required by relevant Thai law. The form must be completed and notarized at the Embassy.

2. Have the completed affidavit translated.

3. Take the affidavit and translation to:

Legalization Division

Department of Consular Affairs

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

3rd Floor, 123 Chaeng Wattana Road

Tung Song Hong, Laksi District, Bangkok

Tel:(02) 575-1057-8, Fax:(02) 575-1054

4. Take the affidavit and supporting documents to a local Amphur and register yourselves as married. The Amphur will also require the following documents:

a) Your American passport;

The Thai citizen's identification card;

c) If either party is under the age of twenty, written

permission from the parents (with Thai translation);

d) If either you or your fiance have been previously married the Amphur will want to see proof that prior marriages have been terminated; either divorce or death certificates. These documents if available, should be translated into Thai prior to presentation at the Amphur.

http://usa.or.th/embassy/mrginfo.htm

As lopburi3 says, you should apply for a B (business) visa if you want to work here.  If you cannot get it, I think a  tourist visa is your best bet.  After you are married, you can change to a non-immigrant dependency visa (it may require a trip out of the country) which enables you to work in permitted categories to support your dependents (in fact if you are married to a Thai citizen and living in Thailand, you are considered the dependent - this allows you to stay here).

Residency and citizenship:

A waste of time and money in many cases (but not all).

While you are working, you are better off as a dependent of your Thai spouse.  When you stop working full time, go for the retirement visa.  If you are low profile here, no one really cares what you do as long as you don't get someone mad enough at you to have your status investigated. You can work, not work, as you please. Keep in mind that if you are refused a work permit once, getting one after that will be a real hassle.  So do your homework before going this route if your income from retirement allows you to sustain the lifestyle you like.

If you are a resident you still have to renew your residency annually, just like a visa, and I have heard that renewing a resident visa takes more time.    Getting Thai citizenship might not be possible.  Very few foreigners ever get it, but do some searches for the requirements and then decide.  

One last item, if you do your homework, and understand the rules, then you don't need to hire any third parties to assist, as many of them are rip-offs.  Your girlfriend should be able to help, but if she is of low education and excitable, you might be better off doing everything yourself, except when her presence is mandatory.

Cheers/Caught

[DaveYo]

Sorry caughtintheact for not responding sooner.  I have been doing a lot of homework here checking things out.  I cannot seem to find a few answers to my questions as to this date.   First question is as follows:   Can I apply for a non-immigrant visa minus the work permit for the time being?  I was thinking of getting the work permit process done once over there.  Secondly- Can I get my Thai girl to find a legit way for me to get a work permit before marriage?  If so, what jobs am I allowed to do in Thailand since I see mentioned that there is 32 kinds of jobs that farangs cannot be involved in.  Third - for a non-immigrant visa do they require a background check?   I just got mine done, but their system only goes back to 1984, 19 years.  Prior to that I was around but not here, and also in school.  Anyway they said this is all they can give me.  Will this suffice to meet one of the requirements short of fingerprint checks?  You mentioned having to go out of the country and re-enter as non-immigrant, where do I go to meet that criteria?  I understand once married I can do the rest of it.  I am just wondering what is the proper recourse for me to do prior to marriage.  The income issue I understand it quite well now.  No problem there.  As of residency I am not going to worry about it for now, since I see it is a pain in my neck trying to squeeze from a large pipe into a tiny pipe with such a criteria only 100 per country being approved yearly.  The biggest issue problem I have is trying to figure which way to go before I enter Thailand visa wise - because that work permit seems to be tied into the darn Non-immigrant visa and this sort of compels me to do both.  I own a legit business here being Dave's Automotive Repairs, registered with the State and Federal Government here in USA.  Can I bring this business into Thailand?  If so will this fall under the Non-immigrant Visa B?  If it does I am screwed, cause I cannot cough up 40 million Baht!  Can this business go under the Non-immigrant Visa O?  (this is the one that has that work permit I think)  My complaint I suppose is about how Thailand Government gets this work visa tied up to the Non-immigrant visas.  Why cannot they keep the work and non-immigrant separated?  Many want to enter as Non-immigrant to stay long term, but are sort of forced into this catch 22 situation having to apply for a work permit at the same time.  Bottom line is- Is there any way around this snafu?    :blues:

[caughtintheact]

I don't know of any way to get a work permit from outside of the country, so to answer your first question, you need to get the non-immigrant visa outside of the country first.  When you arrive and either set up your own company or become sponsored by a local company (it can be a local branch of an international company as well), only then can you apply for a work permit. The work permit must come second, as it's expiry date is the same as the expiry of the visa.

As for your girlfriend arranging a work permit, the only way she could do it is if she owns a company and is going to hire you or if she has pull in a company she works for and gets them to sponsor your work permit.  If she has no company affiliations, then she will not be able to help.  There are no Sears-Roebuck work permits here.  

If you have a source of outside income, or savings to transfer here, then you should plan to live on that until you can find work.  Getting a work permit before marriage is not needed as you will probably get a business visa to look for opportunities here.  When you get married you will have more of a right to work here, because you have to support your wife. Also unless you need the work for the money, it's best to take your time, meet people, and not just take a job with a relative stranger, as you don't know how it will turn out.  Be cautious in dealing with the people here, as you can't tell who is running scams, running frauds, or whether or not they will pay you on time....or at all.  

As far as the types of work you can do, it is too difficult to make any kind of list.  Simply put, you can do anything that is not prohibited.  

I'm not really sure about the background check, - I suspect that as long as it comes from the police in your home town, that should suffice.  If you don't get a business visa, you definitely have to make a trip out of the ountry, but if you get married, you might not have to.  Take a look at the Immigration web site: http://www.imm.police.go.th/wt/wt.htm - click on the service link on the left, then on English - all the rules are there for visas.  Then, if you have any questions about the visa, please direct them to George or Fester, as they are more current on the various visas than I am. But the Immigration web siteindicates that you can change from a tourist to a non-immigrant visa if you get married.  Here's what the site says:

Applying for a change of visa status to a non-immigrant visa

Those who are eligible are holders of :

1.    Tourist Visa

2.   Transit Visa

Resons :

1.     To work with the Thai Government

2.     Investment with approval from the ministry or department concerned

3.     Investment or investment-related activities under the investment promotion laws

4.     To work as media

5.     To teach religion with approval from the ministry or department concerned

6.     Researching in scientific fields or teaching in a research or education institute

7.     Skill work or expert

8.     Education            

       8.1  Student

       8.2  Teacher

9.     For business purposes

10.   Brings money into Thailand not less than 3 million Baht

11.   Other reasons in accordance with the regulations of the Ministry of Interior

       11.1  To fulfill the duty or responsibility as an immediate member of a foreign

                    family

       11.2  To give assistance to or receive assistance from a Thai citizen or someone

                   who is a resident in Thailand.

       11.3   To work in a public enterprise or non-profit public organization

       11.4   For retirement purposes.

       11.5   Those who used to have Thai nationality who wish to visit relatives or to

            stay in Thailand

       11.6   To get midical care in Thailand

       11.7   To work as a sports trainer upon the invitation of the government

       11.8   A defendant/plaintiffor a witness in a legal court case

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Place to submit documents :  Room 303, 3rd Floor,  Building 1

                                                         Tel.287-3101-10  Ext.  2237,  287-4948

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Documents required :

1.    Passport or substitute travel document in which the holder was permitted to stay as

      Tourist Visa or Transit Visa status

2.    Application Form for change of visa  

3.    One 4x6 cm. Photo

4.    Document certified reasons for applying a change of visa status

I agree on the non-essentiality of residency.  You don't really need it.  For one thing, if you are working legally you have a right to stay.  If you are married you have a right to stay. And if you are neither working nor married, then you can always apply for a retirement visa, and have the right to stay.  Don't sweat the work permit too much.  The hardest thing might be to find work in the first place.  If you get work through people you know and feel comfortable with, it might be unnecessary to bother with the work permit, provided you don't get anyone mad enough to have you investigated.  So I'd worry about first things first.   I don't know if you have come across the Dr. Smith letter I have posted on this site in a couple of places, but you should read it.  If you don't want to hunt for it, then send me an email address and I will send it to you directly.

You might be able to establish your company here as a branch of the one in the USA, but there might be tax complications. You could just set up a repair company but you will need to hire enough Thais to justify the issuance of a work permit.  40 million baht?  For what? See http://www.chiangmailaw.com/company.htm I don't see anything that prohibits you from running an auto service organization, as long as you are not performing the functions of a repairman yourself, because that would be taking a job from a Thai, many of whom are good repairmen

I'd definitely consult a lawyer before setting up anything here.   A good lawyer (I think I mentioned that I only know one), will give you all your options.

I hope this answers most of your questions.  To summarize,

1.  Get any kind of visa you can that allows the longest stay  without having to make a visa run.  

2.  Look  around for opportunities.  

3.  Determine marriage plans

If you find work, then worry about the work permit.  If you dabble in small jobs for some extra cash, then don't worry about it.  

Remember that a company has to sponsor a work permit.  You cannot just apply for one because you want to work, so you have to create a company or go to work for one.

[caughtintheact]

Just found something else:

http://www.bia.co.th/contents.htm

This site contains the Thailand Business Guide and should answer all your questions about working in Thailand.

By the way, although the Thai bureaucracy doesn't like it very much, if you can find a trustworthy American partner and set up an unlimited unregistered partnership it might be possible to get a work permit under the 1966 (or 68) Treaty of Amity and Economic Cooperation between Thailand and the United States.  Only the USA has such a treaty, and it's implications are that anything a Thai is allowed to do in the United States, an American can do here.  This is why I recommend Ron Cristal as a lawyer, as he knows all the ropes.  he can be contacted at [email protected]

[DaveYo]

Thanks caughtintheact.  So bottom line is get the Non-immigrant O visa, multi entry now before winging it to Thailand. Please confirm.  At least that will get started.  As for my Thai girl, yes she got Diploma as a teacher to teach the young kiddies etc, but ouch for me, cause dealing with a bunch of those will surely make me go coo coo. :laugh: Besides she keeps talking to me about kids here and there a lot and wants at least two for her own.  Sigh, but she got problems trying to get babies.  Will have to seek medical help for that department.  As for me, true I also require medical care needing to get the male boost in my tush once every 3 weeks. Ouch. This is permanent no way around it.  Also will take the advice, live in apartment for a year or two, then buy the Condo (in my name glory be) and should be ok overall knowing I got a roof over my head at all times.  Suicidal to place such personal security in her name should something happen down the road - one never knows.  Been burned once already by Philippino, so no surprise there. As of home, only if the Thai girl and I make good in our commitment and I get some legal protection for worse case scenario.  Now I understand Thai thinking to some extent towards foreigners, so need to protect oneself or get caught up in their house game.  True, a lot of the rules are designed to frustrate and if not discourage foreigners to protect their Nationality.  Just read of some recent meetings involving the immigration issues,one official welcomes retired people and business, and they want you to spend money like confetti, but this official  dislikes foreigners trying to get work permits.  This one official is trying to change the way work permits are being issued to make it 10 times harder.  This was from a clip dated beginning April of 2003. You mentioned this unknown treaty back in 1967 etc, WOW!  That is really dusting up some archives.  Really I never knew that existed.  Will be contacting Ron Cristal shortly - perhaps he can help me do the Hawaiian swoon the right way and might have some connections for me once there.  Don't want to take jobs away from a Thai, but whew, seen many mechanics over the years say that they can do the job, and even have more education than I, yet cannot find an alternator on vehicle let alone how to remove it and fix it.  Came across a few of these high techies and had to dust my pants to re-educate these so called experts the old fashioned way.  One of them blew a tire just adding air to it and he landed like 10 feet away from the tire completely surprised.  Me, I think I must have jumped like 5 feet in the air cause my coffee cup was on the floor and not in my hands.  Last trip in Bangkok, my Thai girl and I had a personal cab driver, and on way to Petchaburi had vehicle sputtering, so told him to stop and found out his engine getting choked big time.  No air, carb was completely plugged. He tells me mechanic fixed it.  I wonder. Did cabbie a favor fixed it up and it was pretty after that.  Will keep you posted on my finals.  Thanks  my friend.

[caughtintheact]

Ok Dave I can confirm that the best way is to get the non-imm visa first.  If you can get a multiple reentry, go! All other matters follow.  

By the way, this is the Dr. Smith letter.  Note the categories in which he places people.  Don't take it personally - it's a matter of not getting into something that one cannot handle.  I did not write this.

DON'T MOVE TO THAILAND

I have some advice to any westerners out there contemplating moving to Thailand.

If you are rich and are sensible with money, then go ahead.

If an international company or similar offers you a high salaried job in Thailand, then fine.  

If you are retired or have steady funds from abroad and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch yourself.

And if you're a young dude traveling around the world, and you want to spend time in Thailand teaching or whatever for experience, then that's OK too.

If you don't fall into these categories then *don't* consider it for a moment.  Many middle aged westerners in particular (including professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or making some money and "enjoying life" in Thailand.  But very few make it. (Forget about western restaurant or bar owners and alike you might meet in Thailand boasting about their good life there.  It is common for faltering foreigners to keep up appearances).  Mostly they end up broke or crazed, sometimes both, then they leave.  Thai business, visa and residency laws get you in the end.  The "Thai Way" will get you in the end.  Have a minor run-in with a wealthy or important Thai and your status and possibly your life will be at risk.  Their whole culture is geared around making sure that foreigners pursuing individual efforts are not successful.  It's ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really do think that) and their mythology runs so deep you'll never budge it.  Remember, in Thailand you'll never have any real business, legal or ownership rights.  But Thai's can go to your country and buy and own anything they can get their sticky hands on (because of the more tolerant business laws).  To Thai's, this is just further evidence of how clever they are, and how foolish are the foreigners to go the Thailand.

Remember too, that Thailand is dominated by a comparatively small military-industrial elite.  They have all the power and most of the wealth in the country.  The idea of western foreigners living in the country and achieving wealth and status through individual entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that they have over the Thai underclass...the bulk of the population.  For this reason, it is never allowed to happen.

Think of Thailand, for westerners, as being a bit like a casino.  A casino is a place with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune/the good life, and a place for fun, even with a bit of risk.  Go to a casino every now and then for fun and that's OK.  Go there everyday all-day and you will ultimately lose, because the House Advantage will always get you.  So it is in Thailand.  The Thai "House Advantage" will get you.  They make sure of it.

Of course, if going to Thailand with all your money and slowly losing it and ending up teaching English for a pittance (because that's about all you can do), either illegally or working legally but being treated like a serf by Thai institutions, appeals to you then go ahead.  Maybe a hand to mouth virtual poverty lifestyle appeals to you.  And running around the country several times a year getting visas, or always being at the mercy of authorities on visa matters also might be your bag.  If so, then go ahead, at least you'll be able to spend your nights at cheap restaurants sharing your impoverishment and frustration with other exploited western teachers.  If not, think seriously.

In case you are thinking, let me say that I am not a former go-go bar owner gone bust, I have not lost my all doing business with Thai's, no I haven't been cheated of everything by a bar-girl, no I haven't been reduced to the indignity of teaching English for a pittance.  I have my own money, have spent a lot of time in Thailand, and have done some business there, I've observed the experiences of a lot of foreigners,  can see what goes on, and have enough concern to want to tell others about it.

If my words can prevent even one westerner of modest means from selling out and going to "enjoy life" in Thailand (and getting shafted in the end) then that will be something.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can "make a contribution" to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed your skills may be.  Your contribution will *never* be welcomed, only your money.  There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: "farang roo mark my dee" - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no good.  Gullible tourists, however, are great. [Please note I do not use the term "farang" - I don't use racist terms for other nationalities and resent such terms used to refer to me.  Please don't post back saying it just means "white person" or whatever; I've spent a lot of time in Thailand and have heard all these arguments before.]

So go to Thailand as a tourist if you like, enjoy what you enjoy there, but  don't be taken in by the culture or people, as many westerners have, and don't under any circumstances give up anything back home to go and stay there unless you are financially secure for life, or know exactly what you are doing.

There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling you the truth about the country because they don't like to admit to themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving there.  But especially now, with the financial mess Thailand had got itself into through a mixture of greed, incompetence, arrogance and corruption, and the prospect of difficult times ahead (to say the least) it is time for plain speaking.

A final comment to anyone of replying in strong disagreement with me.  Unless you have lived, worked and conducted business in Thailand for several years at least, I'm not interested.  The views of "oh how can you say that, Thailand is really great" 2 week tourists carry no weight with those of us who know Thailand and Thai's well.

Good luck

[DaveYo]

Oh by the way caughtintheact.  Forgot something to mention to you.  If I receive my disability from USA which is tax free here, amounts to in Thai 40k+  monthly and then receive my interest investment which is around say 27K+ monthly in Thai baht, do I have to pay any taxes in Thailand?  I know I have to declare interest earnings to USA from my investment because that is declared earnings.   Just wondering.  If I purchase a Condo instead of living in some apartment what taxes do I have to pay to own it?   Forgot about all this due to the concentration on Visa issues, but this area is equally important requiring some answers.  The Taxes is the hidden surprise forthright and coming so I better know it now and not have to make the run to the bathroom!   Thanks :laugh:

[lopburi3]

"cita" seems to have answered most of your questions but will add a couple of observations.

The work permit is permission to work at a specific job.  It is not a 'you are now permitted to work' type of paper.  Thus your girl friend can not help unless she finds you a specific job that a work permit is available for.

If your girl friend writes Consulate a letter saying you plan to marry it may carry some weight toward them issuing you a non immigrant visa, especially at the honorary type Consulates.

By law any money brought into Thailand should be taxed as income I believe (unless exempt by a tax treaty).  But don't think there is close enforcement.  The fact that you are spending it here seems to take priority.

Believe the background check is only part of the retirement type visa process att.

Condo will be taxed when transfer takes place and of course subject to 'condo' fees.  Be very careful.  There is almost no after sales market for condos (most Thai consider them fit only for birds and public housing).  The scam's are legend - many now have no lifts, electric, garbage collection etc as the condo association is corrupt or nobody pays.  Swimming pools become shops, parking becomes private property etc.  Would strongly advise renting for awhile to get some idea of the game here.  One upscale condo scam is to build 19 units and only sell 9.  Builder then still has full control and can rent or have extended family in the other units.  Guess who ends up paying all utilities in that situation?

[caughtintheact]

Dave,

Thailand and the USA have a tax treaty, so money earned (including retirement pay and interest on savings, etc) on which taxes have been paid in the USA are not taxable here.  Also as lopburi3 says, if you spend it here, no one is going to get too excited.  

Also completely agree with lopburi3 re condos.  be very, very cautious.  What you see and what you are told are two different things than what you get.  In the long term it is probably best to get a condo (if you are not going to build a house in your girlfriend's home province) that is well established, and well maintained.  If you buy new you never know if the developers are going to go bust leaving you stuck for the deposit until some eon in the future, someone takes it over and completes it...could take years.  I used to work for a developer who lett a lot of people out of pocket.  That was 6 years ago, and nothing has changed with the partially finished buildings.  

Anyway, first things first.  Don't be in too much of a rush to do anything except get the non-imm visa and gt here.  All else follows, and keep in mind that here, you need to develop rapport, find out who you can trust and do some due diligence before making any moves that will cost you any substantial amount.

[DaveYo]

Thanks for the advice on the Condo, true to form when I went to Petchaburi, I saw a lot of homes that was built but no one lives in these homes but a few, and a lot of them recently built and do look nice for I inspected a few of them.  However it is near being a ghost town so to speak.  Gives me the willies.  Never thought that selling some real estate such as condo's will be a big problem there, and of how they viewed it.  I looked into my crystal ball and I see a potential problem coming if the thinking is like this, Thai way.  Hate to invest in something that at the end becomes of no value let alone at least get your money back so to speak.  So renting is now of some acceptance to me, and at least now I can consider looking at a home being built instead.  Mentioned it to my girl, of this possibility, yet have to watch my back on this because of the way women are overall.   She flat out told me she is not interested in me getting a home, but prefers to have a tight close relationship and wanted me to consider myself and my security first.  Nice to know but the Instincts of Thai women from what I have heard is creepy to some extent meaning as to of their true motives etc.  There has to be a way to protect my investment if I get such a home and at least get my greenbacks back should worse case scenario ever come about.  One never knows.  If she gets all the power, I am then at her mercy.  Scary thought for a man.  On other hand, sure the safe bet is rent out like you said scout around, ask questions, look, and investigate things carefully, which should be able to pay oneself some dividends in the end when needed.  I do pray to think Ron Cristal hopefully is as true as you say he is, and that perhaps he can look out for me and of my interests.  True he is in it to make money for himself, but I also hope he knows what he is doing to keep my interests protected for the long term and that he has some concern for me overall as a human being.  I don't want to end up like no where to go.   Even Lawyers is hard to trust because their motives are so well hidden regarding the legal lingo.  Fortunately being in Thailand twice and being able to take notice on certain things does come a long way and for that I am thankful.  Its no easy picnic.  I do admit to you all that making such move can either make you or break you if not properly planned ahead of time.  As of the taxes, I do suppose this only will come into play once some report of working there in Thailand with permits etc is in effect.  So I think for now Thai Taxes will not be of major issue.  So I will make the contacts and keep you posted.      :blues:

[dr_Pat_Pong]

and Dave ....until you have a Non-Immigrant visa that has a one year extension from Thai Immigration IN Thailand, forget about sending all those goods over.  Without that extended visa you have no rights to bring stuff in (unless paying duty   on your own property appeals to you)    

[DaveYo]

Greetings Mr. Pat Pong.  Are you saying to me to forget  sending my stuff to Thailand?  My goodness, I am planning on moving there.  Have no place here to keep it.  It has to come with me.  I have not heard that I cannot bring my things to Thailand, if I get my Visa approved.  Personal stuff that is.  One cannot live in Thailand without their own personal things.  Let alone have to wait for over a year to get it.  It makes no sense to store it here, and then have to come back here to get it shipped once I have my yearly extensions.    I know you have to give some tea money to the customs to allow it to pass.  Is there some link that I can look at in regards to property and its criteria in relation to ones Visa Status?  From what I understood, you can bring your stuff there according to the Washington D.C. Embassy.  Yes certain things will be taxed but not like bringing your car to thailand.  Items accepted from what I was told was 1 living room set, Max- 2 bedroom sets, Kitchen accessories and also things like china etc, bookshelves, books and knick knacks and the like.  It is the electrical items that usually will be taxed depending on what you have.  They allow computer and its parts, but after that things such as stereos or other home electronics might be taxed.  Tools and equiptment is not taxed, and most of it is air powered anyway.  Some tools are electric, but I doubt that they will go over my personal stuff with fine tooth and comb.  This is when the Tea money comes in to avoid such hassle, and also my girl will be there, and also be able to show we have intentions on getting married.  I will double check with the embassy again and will respond shortly and let you know.

[george]

Dave, Just forget sending anything to Thailand until you have a one-year extension from Immigrantion granted and/or a valid work permit.

Do NOT try to import your personal belongings before you have a work permit!

Check this link for the current regulations:

http://www.thaivisa.com/340.0.html

The general rule is that is MUCH cheaper to buy new stuff in Thailand instead of bringing them here.

[DaveYo]

Oh golly.  Thanks a bunch fellas.   So now I know where I stand.  I either have to get that One Year Extension Now if I want to ship my stuff there, or hold it here till I do get it, or get married ASAP to expedite that extension Visa.  So I will have two chances to pull this off.  First try to get it now, and if not, then go down there and try to get it by making that infamous Visa run on my first try.  If I do succeed then I will be in luck.  If not I then will have no recourse but to keep my stuff here for approximately a good 1 year till I can get to that stage, and then have to come back here and get the stuff loaded up and then ship it, and then fly back to Thailand.  Whew.  this obviously does change my plans big time.  So I simply have to ask you this one multi question.  What are my odds on getting that one year visa extension on my first try while there and if so what place is the best to go that gives me the highest chances on getting the one year visa?   I know Houston will give me the 6 months last I heard of, but now I got to almost beg them to give me the one year type.  I am going to have to pull all my rabbits on them and hope to convince them.  If I lose here, the only shot is the Visa run. Is it Brisbane or Penang or where? :blues:

[lopburi3]

It seems that we are back at square one again.  You do not get a one year visa.  You extend a current visa for one year.  The current visa can be a single entry 90 day non immigrant or a multi entry type but you extend the current 90 day stay for a total of one year.  You need this to import.  If you marry and submit the proof of support for your Thai wife and show that the money is coming from outside Thailand (in the case of not having a work permit yet) it should be approved but the process will take from 45 days to several months as it is only done in Bangkok.  This process has nothing to do with any Embassy or Consulate or visa run.  

As for shipping 'stuff' ask yourself if you really, really need the crap..stuff.  If you plan to start a new life here would it not be better to start new with everything?  Electric is not the same.  Sheet size is not the same.  TV/video is not the same.  Weather is not the same.  Is there really anything other than maybe photos you need?

[DaveYo]

Lopburi I understand.  Latest news.  Houston Thai Consulate is sending me the application forms and etc to get the one year Non Immigrant Visa type O.   I know they say 90 days as per quoted, but to my surprise they just told me over the phone I can get the One Year Deal.  They are faxing it to me now.  Just received it.  I can apply for the one year, only requirements is a letter of invitation from a Thai Citizen showing this invitation and letter of support, and photocopies of such Citizen in Thailand.  After that they will process it and payment is 40.00 usa money for the multi entry Visa.  Now if I have this approved, from what I am told now,  can I still bring in my stuff to Thailand?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME NO NO  NO. YOU HAVE TO GET A ONE YEAR EXTENSION IN BANGKOK BEFORE YOU CAN BRING A THING

[caughtintheact]

Dave,

The best thing to do is put the goods in storage before coming over here.  Once you are able to bring in the goods, you can arrange to have them shipped over.  There are plenty of companies here that will be able to arrange for the shipment, customs clearance and delivery to your place in Thailand.  

You should sell electrical items before you come over, because you have to get transformers to use them here, unless you both them with dual voltage capability.  You can get very good electrical items over here at reasonable prices.  Furniture that you want to bring here can be placed in temp storage.  

Some of the comnpanies that will handle the shipping, etc for you are Santa Fe, Hong Kong Transpack, etc.  If you want some advanced info on this check their web sites.  You can also contact a friend of mine who works at Santa Fe, Alec Napier, [email protected]

[DaveYo]

Thanks caughtintheact.  Ok I will follow your instructions as given.  Even tho I have the one year multi visa, I do believe it has to say or be extension visa more or less language technicality.   Anyway I will be making my first trip to Thailand for pure business reasons etc, getting me at least an apartment furnished and try to lock in on a deal for one year and have it reserved for me so when I come down the second time like 90 days later it is there for me without a problem.  So during the first trip I also will make a visit to port etc and make contact with the customs there and get things verified directly from them as to all the etc's involved.  I will then also do some other preparations with my girl, involving property and having a home built etc to see what can be done in the meantime.  After that then I will return here to finish up the last part of the business here as of my property etc, and then return to Thailand again and stay for the year.  Once my year is up and the Visa Extension is given, then return here to get my stuff and have it shipped once and for all good purposes.  So as of the goods in Thailand, in some cases it is cheaper to buy, and again can be more expensive than here depending on the items.   The only problem I got now is my computer, and I will be damned if I cannot bring it with me on my second trip.  I have a good quality unit here, and don't want to buy something less inferior.  I got to figure something out here.  Any suggestions concerning my computer? :blues:

[DaveYo]

Oh, came across item here concerning reporting your residence or place where I am staying.  If I have a 1 year contract say at an apartment, or have a home built and is leased etc, and  If I have a 1 year non-immigrant visa and following years your extensions etc, do I have to keep reporting my place of residence or place where I am staying at every 90 Days?  What if I have my own permanent place or has a year contract at some apartment in the beginning?   Confused here?  Something does not make any sense.  I do not see anything in here on subject for those concerning long term stays with specific contracts or permanent places that is fixed such as a home leased for 30 years, or is married to a Thai? :blues:

[caughtintheact]

Hi Dave,

I don't understand why you would need to make a trip to the USA just to get the household goods shipped.  It can be arranged from here, or did I misunderstand something.

Second, if you try to deal with customs yourself, you may just be opening a can of worms, because, frankly, you probably do not have a clue about the regulations, the way to deal with customs, and you are very likely to end up paying double or triple the "normal" rate.   The companies I mentioned in my last post are specialists in that field.  Most have been in the business for over 20-30 years and they know all the ropes.  Your girlfriend may be able to help, but if she doesn't have much experience with outfits like customs, it might still be painful.  And you will still most likely have to hire a company that is allowed to move your goods out of the customs warehouse and knows the bribe rates.

I take it that your computer is a desktop and not a mobile type computer.  If it is a mobile type (laptop, notebook), bringing it in is no problem. But if it is a desktop, then it's a big large to bring with you. So again I recommend you contact the experts in international shipping of personal property to see what the best thing to do is.   Again if it is a desktop, what I would do is store it, after burning CDs with your critical info.  Bring the CDs here.  Get a cheap laptop (there are some good buys in used ones here for as little as B7500 (IBM Thinkpad) at places like Pantip Plaza or the IT Mall at Fortune Town.  I can give you some names if you want to contact them.  Then when you can ship your goods here, ship the computer with them.  

As for reserving an apartment, I also wonder if that's necessary, unless you are committed to living in a specific area.  There are lots of apartments available.

[caughtintheact]

90 day reporting

Once you report the first time, you are committed to reporting every 90 days.  

I know many people who have never reported and never got hassled, but this could change if it hasn't already.

I've been doing it for the past 20 odd years.  It's not a hassle.  Takes about 10 minutes max.

If you get caught not reporting, you might be liable to a B5000 fine.  See below:

http://www.thaivisa.com/315.0.html

Reporting to Immigration every three months

REPORT TO AVOID A 5,000 BAHT FINE

In mid-1998, Immigration revived enforcement of a rule requiring foreigners to register their address with immigration if they stay in the country over 90 days. It is important to note that you have to make this report before the 90 days is up (and that is 90 actual days, NOT three months).

This is free, but if you do not report in time there is a 5,000 baht fine plus 200 Baht/day fine. The enforcement of this rule is just an attempt to squeeze some extra baht out of foreigners, so be sure to register and deprive them of the fines!

As long as you report before the 90 days are up, you can send someone else to Immigration to fill out this form for you. You can also mail the regsitration form by registered mail.

Who need to report?

If you are on tourist visa or Non-Immigrant visa you don't need to report. (You have been here less than 90 days, huh!)

If you are on one-year-extension you must report.

Application form http://www.thaivisa.com/427.0.html

[DaveYo]

Hi caughtintheact.  I have some information forth right and coming.  Will post it shortly.  This information is quite interesting.  Whew   :blues: