farcanell Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 2 hours ago, gemguy said: Your argument does not change the fact that in the majority of the other countries having a lot of guns there is a lot of death by guns. Why do people such as yourself even bother trying to defend the fact that America is the most ( <deleted> Up ) country in the world when it comes to the problems associated with guns while you post is simply a somewhat useless and futile attempt to defend the gun related problems in the USA. I am not pro gun or anti gun but it is painfully obvious America has a problem related to all the guns in circulation while I have seen feeble attempts, such as yours, using the statistics of Switzerland as an example which I have seen easily refuted when all the facts and details are presented as to why Switzerland is not anything like the USA and a very poor example to be used to defend the gun logic of the USA Living in blissful denial trying to defend the gun related problems does not change the facts concerning just how <deleted> Up America is and how living in the USA is becoming more and more precarious because of all the guns in use. As if America would be just like Switzerland if everyone in the USA was required to own a gun....LOL Seriously...that is really dumb of you to actually believe that America would have a miraculously reduced homicide rate if every citizen was to own a gun in the USA...the USA ..not Switzerland. Your post is a joke actually and lacks any thought or serious insight at all concerning the magnitude of the problems concerning guns and all the mass of weapons in the USA...but other wise entertaining ..although a knee jerk reaction from a person ( a guy ) who is easily assumed to be a pro gun lobbyist ( your choice ) who we can only surmise actually believes that more guns manufactured and sold to the public ( in the USA ) will be the way to resolve the gun related problems in the USA Do not bother answering ..seriously .....if you are going to try and apply the logic seen in your last retort as the means to address the huge problem America faces with all the guns in circulation. Lmao..... I made no claims about anything... none... I made no argument... none, I simply asked a question, because your post rambled and was somewhat confusing, lacking in structure etc etc.... nothing more was intended or implied.... you assumed this, probably because of your own bias... and... I am not defending American gun laws in any way. the only comment you made in response to my post, that is correct, was that it was meant to be entertaining you have no idea about my stance on guns... but here's an insight; i am not american i do not own guns i would never advocate gun ownership (by anyone, anywhere) i believe less guns reduce the likelihood of accidental (only) deaths i believe that individuals should obey the law (note... Americans owning guns is not unlawful) i believe that certain middle eastern countries are more messed up than America, when it comes to guns. i believe Americans need to act together to sort out their gun problems, and that this is none of my business (or yours, if your not a voting American) That's enough to start with, and I hope it helps, whilst attracting a less vitriolic rant.... when all you really needed to say was "no... I didn't mean that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijb Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, JustNo said: Yeah we all know guns are not the issue, the issue remains with the people who own them. So lets take the Swiss and the US citizens, both have a large amount of guns yet one country has a murder rate not much lower than Thailand, a 'developing' 'third world country' - the problem obviously is ingrained into the mental state of the people who are using the guns, and the US has a pretty shoddy approach to mental health and background checks on people. I also think that there are many issues deeply ingrained into US society as well. Your post is profound. Profoundly ignorant. The issue is not with the people who (legally) own them. "the overwhelming majority of gun crimes aren't committed by lawful gun owners" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/27/new-evidence-confirms-what-gun-rights-advocates-have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/?utm_term=.ca27469a20f5 BTW: Exactly how are mental health checks and background checks, for firearm purchases, related? Exactly what issues (deeply ingrained into US society) are you referring to? And how are they related to this Op? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 This guy seems to have been inspired by Islamist ideology. The news sources, as usual, are being too politically correct. Correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcanell Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, JemJem said: This guy seems to have been inspired by Islamist ideology. The news sources, as usual, are being too politically correct. Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps.... From Shots post way back at number 2..., for those that didn't bother reading the link.... there is a definite possibility of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhys Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 gangs in the military not terrorist spin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Off topic deflection posts and replies have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 2 hours ago, farcanell said: Lmao..... I made no claims about anything... none... I made no argument... none, I simply asked a question, because your post rambled and was somewhat confusing, lacking in structure etc etc.... nothing more was intended or implied.... you assumed this, probably because of your own bias... and... I am not defending American gun laws in any way. the only comment you made in response to my post, that is correct, was that it was meant to be entertaining you have no idea about my stance on guns... but here's an insight; i am not american i do not own guns i would never advocate gun ownership (by anyone, anywhere) i believe less guns reduce the likelihood of accidental (only) deaths i believe that individuals should obey the law (note... Americans owning guns is not unlawful) i believe that certain middle eastern countries are more messed up than America, when it comes to guns. i believe Americans need to act together to sort out their gun problems, and that this is none of my business (or yours, if your not a voting American) That's enough to start with, and I hope it helps, whilst attracting a less vitriolic rant.... when all you really needed to say was "no... I didn't mean that" Well then ..now that you have explained yourself to the TV .com audience maybe you would explain to them why you used an example of the same old and lame examples by way of posting the same worn out comparative or counter argument examples that you did post and often used by gun ownership advocates in defence of gun ownership in the USA. What was the point of posting that particular example and always used in defense of legal gun ownership by the percentage of people that adamantly argue that legal gun ownership is the means and ways to address the problems associated with guns ...as every time someone or near anyone gets into a debate with the gun ownership advocates and gun zealots they commonly use the same counter argument data or statements that you also posted to support their gun owner ship argument. What you posted is well known as one of gun advocates counter arguments often used to validate gun ownership...and therefore my response. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcanell Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Really easy gemguy.... as a non advocate, I had no idea that this ( the Honduras/ Swiss thing) was used by advocates, which reinforces my second post, outlining that I don't advocate gun ownership, and know little about gun advocacy... which as I said, I don't support. the posting was, as I said, was a question about what you were saying... but you went postal on me.... slurring my character in a couple of posts, which in turn, led me to clarify my position, which I am comfortable with. is there an issue with letting the "TV.com audience" know my position on these matters... after all, at days end, reading my posts in general, will show my stance on a multitude of topics, so I was really only telling you. (posters have a right to clarification of statements, in IMHO... if you cannot, or will not clarify your post... don't post) and whilst being honest... your confusing post made me think that you were a gun advocate.... hence my questioning you (politely, and with a touch of humor). hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, alex8912 said: You should have asked your Thai girl friend first before your incredible British rant. "Honey why are there so many shootings in our backyard called Thailand??" Nuff said 'mass shootings' - referring to deranged people going on rampages in schools, colleges, malls and cinemas... nuff said Edited January 7, 2017 by JustNo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Suradit69 said: But the US is miles ahead when it come to death by gun shootings if you don't get hung up on the definition of "mass shootings." The study was published online Feb. 1 in The American Journal of Medicine. big place America http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders-with-firearms-per-million try the "per capita" your "beloved" is right up there Edited January 7, 2017 by kannot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 USA 112.6 guns per capita Cyprus 36.4 guns per capita Sweden 31.6 guns per capita Germany 30.3 guns per capita Norway 31.3 guns per capita USA murder rate 3.9 Cyprus murder rate 1.1 Sweden murder rate 0.9 Germany murder rate 0.9 Norway murder rate 0.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, kannot said: big place America You've never heard of ratios have you? Stay in school kid, math 101 is that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JustNo said: You've never heard of ratios have you? Stay in school kid, math 101 is that way ive heard of "per capita" sonny Murders with firearms per million: Countries Compared Edited January 7, 2017 by kannot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farcanell Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, JustNo said: USA 112.6 guns per capita Cyprus 36.4 guns per capita Sweden 31.6 guns per capita Germany 30.3 guns per capita Norway 31.3 guns per capita USA murder rate 3.9 Cyprus murder rate 1.1 Sweden murder rate 0.9 Germany murder rate 0.9 Norway murder rate 0.6 Kudos.... a well laid argument without arguing... well done... and assuming it's correct... excellent research. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 2 hours ago, kannot said: ive heard of "per capita" sonny Murders with firearms per million: Countries Compared Did you have to go back 15 years just to find statistics to suit your opinion??? Do not think Trump will do anything about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Off-topic post removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 56 minutes ago, Basil B said: Did you have to go back 15 years just to find statistics to suit your opinion??? Do not think Trump will do anything about... do u really think its changed that much in 15 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 19 hours ago, craigt3365 said: http://ijr.com/2015/12/348197-paris-attack-claim-mass-shootings/ Did you note that the site specifically excludes "mass murders that stemmed from robbery, gang violence or domestic abuse in private homes" which IMO makes a nonsense of the claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, farcanell said: Kudos.... a well laid argument without arguing... well done... and assuming it's correct... excellent research. ? Just thought I'd put some facts out there. According to these numbers, either guns are solely responsible for the high murder rate, or they play a role in it. I am willing to be they play a part in why the US has a high murder rate, the other factors will be as I have mentioned before in this thread things such as poor handle on mental health, gang violence, racial tensions, a crooked and poor prison system, a poor education system, lack of jobs, and general dysfunction of society. Which brings me back to my point of suggesting that the US is not fully developed as a nation in several ways. Rome wasn't built in a day and you cannot expect a country to be fully developed socially and mentally in 250 years, however good it looks on the exterior. Edited January 8, 2017 by JustNo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 What can be done about it .NOTHING !!!Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 14 minutes ago, rijb said: Pompous drivel that has nothing to do with the Op. So referring to the many mass shooting incidents has nothing to do with the OP, a mass shooting incident. I think you meant 'I don't like your post and can not find a way to refute it, so I'll go another way'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thakkar Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Despite the hyper-masculine opines and pleadings offered by the Gun Right, movement conservatives, and the NRA, their dreams of “a good guy with a gun” stopping a mass shooting (or other type of violence) are largely a myth. “Defensive gun use”—the idea that individual gun owners use their weapons to stop crime—is a cherished tenet of America’s gun obsessives. As argued ( http://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/ ) in the October 2015 issue of the journal Preventive Medicine, this so-called “commonsense” is untrue. ( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings ) Conservatives and the Gun Right have a second cherished myth: more guns equal less crime. This claim has also been debunked. ( http://www.salon.com/2015/05/24/the_rights_big_gun_lie_debunking_the_phony_case_that_more_guns_will_stop_crime/ ) Moreover, social scientists have shown that there is a direct relationship ( http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2617131/largest-gun-study-guns-murder/ ) between the number of guns in a society and gun violence. Experts on interpersonal violence such as David Grossman ( http://internal/tab?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.killology.com%2Farticle_onkilling.htm&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salon.com%2F2015%2F10%2F06%2Fdonald_trumps_death_wish_fantasies_guns_white_vigilantism_and_the_rights_toxic_masculinity%2F&target=_blank ) have demonstrated that it is extremely difficult for a person to kill another human being, reliably, on command, and under stress, with a gun. The dream scenario of an individual person using their gun to stop a mass shooting is refuted by experts in police training and military tactics who detail how fighting in enclosed spaces such as a school or other building is extremely difficult for even highly trained personal. In fact, a group of gun fetishists recently tried to simulate their response to a terrorist attack like the Charlie Hebdo shootings in France. Their goal was to show that “a good guy with a gun” could stop “bad guys” with a gun. The result? The “Death Wish” and “Dirty Harry” role-playing heroes embarrassed themselves as they were repeatedly “killed” in the exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijb Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 40 minutes ago, stevenl said: So referring to the many mass shooting incidents has nothing to do with the OP, a mass shooting incident. I think you meant 'I don't like your post and can not find a way to refute it, so I'll go another way'. It's pointless to refute content-free posts. Like his and yours. The Mods will just delete them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, rijb said: It's pointless to refute content-free posts. Like his and yours. The Mods will just delete them. 'content-free posts' give me a break jeez. Discussing mass shootings in the past and why they are such a regular reoccurrence in what is meant to be a developed nation is not void of content. Especially when the OP is directly aimed at one of the shootings in question. Stop being salty and face up to reality, mass shootings in ANY nation are not normal, but when they happen this often and in a 'developed nation' then one has to wonder why. And as I have stated time and time again in this thread, it is not one or even 2 reasons or factors, it is a multitude of factors from the amount of guns to a poor care and understanding of the mentally unstable, education and prison system, the infancy of the US as a nation, gang culture, racial tensions and divisions and so many other things. Edited January 8, 2017 by JustNo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JustNo said: All of the countries on this list apart from the US are developing third world countries (and my argument is that the US in some respects is still a developing nation) The US has this veneer of appearing developed because of material objects and scientific / technological achievements, but socially speaking it is still backwards in many ways. It's like giving a Ferrari to an 8 year old kid and asking the kid to drive it on a race track, he'll crash it before long as he hasn't developed the skills to drive it. Also my point here is not really one off shootings between people, it is mass shooting incidents when people decided to go and gun down innocent people apparently for now good reason. That doesn't happen nearly as often in any developed nation I see I kind of guessed that but at the end of the day.................its the same result whether mass shootings or one on one Thailand is leagues ahead. So are you more likely to die from a Mass shooting in the U.S or a one on one in Thailand lets say for example "road rage" or "loss of face" Edited January 8, 2017 by kannot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, farcanell said: Really easy gemguy.... as a non advocate, I had no idea that this ( the Honduras/ Swiss thing) was used by advocates, which reinforces my second post, outlining that I don't advocate gun ownership, and know little about gun advocacy... which as I said, I don't support. the posting was, as I said, was a question about what you were saying... but you went postal on me.... slurring my character in a couple of posts, which in turn, led me to clarify my position, which I am comfortable with. is there an issue with letting the "TV.com audience" know my position on these matters... after all, at days end, reading my posts in general, will show my stance on a multitude of topics, so I was really only telling you. (posters have a right to clarification of statements, in IMHO... if you cannot, or will not clarify your post... don't post) and whilst being honest... your confusing post made me think that you were a gun advocate.... hence my questioning you (politely, and with a touch of humor). hope that helps. I am neither pro gun or anti gun myself while both sides of the argument have valid reasons and can not be ignored if you do some extensive research into the subject matter of gun ownership in the USA and all that is entailed. Personally if I did live in the USA and in particular certain areas or certain cities then I would be inclined to buy a gun and obtain a concealed carry licence and not because I want to own a gun or anything to do with the 2nd amendment rights rather it would be prudent to do so to protect yourself and your family and or property from the abundance of scum bag low life criminals that exist in the USA. The truth of the matter being that there is a disturbing amount of crime perpetrated in the USA while a notable percent is perpetrated with a gun as the means and most effective tool to commit those crimes against people who are vulnerable to such criminal intent and or the actual criminal conduct of all too many USA citizens....who are often emboldened to commit crimes because of the easy access to guns/ firearms and the effective use of firearms in committing the crimes they perpetrate. To me it seems that every person that adamantly argues for their right to own a gun or various types of firearms and used to protect themselves really does not care about the larger implications of being a staunch advocate and or consumer of a particular and very specific product , so to speak , that comes attached with some very specific implications and or social ramifications and often deadly consequences and related social impact...but at the same time they should have the right to protect themselves in any lawful manner they can while they believe themselves to be otherwise law abiding citizens......while most are.... The subject matter and the issue of guns is very contentious and always will be. As I said before, in the USA, it is at the point ( some could say has been for a long time ) that a person is nearly obligated to own a gun and have it readily available to thwart or stop or often enough kill the criminals and thugs and <deleted> that are lurking and skulking about in relevant abundance and not at all concerned about the Laws and or seeming unafraid of the laws while they continue to perpetrate their criminal activities with seemingly no fear of retribution. When those criminal types do choose a victim or seize the opportunity to perpetrate their crime upon innocent law abiding citizens and those victims or person or persons are carrying a gun and use it to "turn the tables" then you have to admit that guns, in the hands of law abiding citizens, are an effective way to reverse the situation more often than not while there are literally thousands of cases of scenarios such as that occurring throughout the county. ...as there is that much crime going on throughout the country and certainly per year. Meantime...all the more guns in circulation have proven to create all the more gun related mayhem...but...... for each individual citizen having a gun for protection purposes and the validity of the reason(s) they bought the gun in the first place is not to be ignored while they adamantly feel they can not really afford to take the chance of becoming another victim and no effective means to address the problem WHEN and IF it does or could happen to them and "suddenly" .......and personally.... In the end they will tell you: "You do it your way and we will do it our way" as in the end the only ones who will really look out for yourself, is yourself, while the law can not effectively protect you from the abundance of criminals in the ways and means that the laws and or law enforcement are supposedly in place to protect you, so, if you take it upon yourself to protect yourself and your family and your property by way of a vary effective and persuasive tool, known as a gun, then you should have that right...and they are not wrong about that in many respects. For that reason and many others I am neither pro gun nor anti gun while I do not have the answers as to how to stop the all the deaths and mayhem from further occurring because of guns, but I do like to think of a society without them...but the reality is we are all long past that point or possibility while countries like the USA will have to continually deal with the pros and cons of guns existing in abundance while being part of their social environment ...the good, the bad and the ugly aspects...... and all that is entailed as they can not reverse the situation at this time in history ...rather they just have to deal with it best they can and or tolerate the consequences of so many guns in circulation. Cheers Edited January 8, 2017 by gemguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustNo Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 26 minutes ago, kannot said: I see I kind of guessed that but at the end of the day.................its the same result whether mass shootings or one on one Thailand is leagues ahead. So are you more likely to die from a Mass shooting in the U.S or a one on one in Thailand lets say for example "road rage" or "loss of face" Fair point point if you want to look at the amount of life loss and the chances of being caught up in a situation, however again I would like to point out that one is a third world country.. Not only that but what stands out is that these mass shootings are so rare in other developed nations, it is so striking in comparison. And of course other developed nations have guns as we have seen in this thread, so the problem remains with the people using the guns i.e. the US citizens and the society there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijb Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 22 minutes ago, JustNo said: Fair point point if you want to look at the amount of life loss and the chances of being caught up in a situation, however again I would like to point out that one is a third world country.. Not only that but what stands out is that these mass shootings are so rare in other developed nations, it is so striking in comparison. And of course other developed nations have guns as we have seen in this thread, so the problem remains with the people using the guns i.e. the US citizens and the society there Why do you Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork every time something happens in the US? Have you psychoanalyzed other countries for their mass killings? --------------------- Between January 2009 and December 2015, the period that President Obama has been in office, there are 11 European countries with a higher frequency of these mass public shootings than the US, and 10 European countries with a higher rate of deaths from these attacks. http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/compared-to-europe-the-us-falls-in-rank-for-fatalities-and-frequency-of-mass-public-shootings-now-ranks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemguy Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, rijb said: Why do you Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork every time something happens in the US? Have you psychoanalyzed other countries for their mass killings? --------------------- Between January 2009 and December 2015, the period that President Obama has been in office, there are 11 European countries with a higher frequency of these mass public shootings than the US, and 10 European countries with a higher rate of deaths from these attacks. http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/compared-to-europe-the-us-falls-in-rank-for-fatalities-and-frequency-of-mass-public-shootings-now-ranks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/ Well the statistics are nice and interesting and to be debated of course...but still, America has the longest and most notable and or publicised ongoing, crazy gun culture along with the results and ramifications of it...good and bad...and all too often sad, while making comparisons is useful in some respects but at the same time does not resolve the problem rather makes all the more people, all the more insensitive to the problems and in effect judged as attempting to absolve themselves of any complicity. This kind of comparative analysis is almost akin to saying: I am not the only wife beater in the neighborhood Cheers Edited January 8, 2017 by gemguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 31 minutes ago, rijb said: Why do you Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork every time something happens in the US? Have you psychoanalyzed other countries for their mass killings? --------------------- Between January 2009 and December 2015, the period that President Obama has been in office, there are 11 European countries with a higher frequency of these mass public shootings than the US, and 10 European countries with a higher rate of deaths from these attacks. http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/compared-to-europe-the-us-falls-in-rank-for-fatalities-and-frequency-of-mass-public-shootings-now-ranks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/ The commenters in that link doubting the research are absolutely right. This was a fine example of 'research' where the result was already set before it started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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