Who owns the land when the river moves?

[ChaangNoi]

My wife is looking to buy some land that is on or rather near a pretty good sized river. The chanote shows the land going from the road to the river and is a set number of rai. However the river has moved a fair amount and there is now a good chunk of land between the river and where the chanote stops.

 

A damn was made not too long ago, and way after the chanote was made so we assume that area was flood plain back in the day, but for 10 plus years it has been used as farm land.

 

So who owns that land? We did want to buy the land so we could build a house on the river but we can't build on that area can we?

 

Any experience would help, thanks.

[ChaangNoi]

I found an older map and the land in question was once and island that is now fully attached to our side of the coast.

[ChaangNoi]

The seller has told us we would own the land as the chanote shows that it is to the edge of the river. However I'd like to verify this.

[alfieconn]

To be fair the seller would tell you that as it makes the deal look better.

 

 While i'm no expert, i would imagine the boundary of your land would be a line between the 2 chanot post's irrespective of where the river is !

[ChaangNoi]

Sadly there are no chanot posts as the chanot was done before this was a thing. I do understand the seller will tell me whatever to make the sale, that is why I'm here. But to be fair the chanote shows to the road to the river, but the river moved...

 

So I'm not sure.

[alfieconn]

8 minutes ago, ChaangNoi said:

Sadly there are no chanot posts as the chanot was done before this was a thing. I do understand the seller will tell me whatever to make the sale, that is why I'm here. But to be fair the chanote shows to the road to the river, but the river moved...

 

So I'm not sure.

 

I'm guessing that there must be 2 landmarks for the boundary line to run between.

[ChaangNoi]

Well there is the road and the river, and then on the left there is government land that is not market but you can tell as there is old tree growth, on the right, the line they are saying goes into a field. The marker is a painted fence post and a bamboo stick...

 

So... What to do? This chanote is 80 years old and the river moved. If there were markers they are long gone.

[ChaangNoi]

But anyway, who owns the land that was once an island?

[alfieconn]

2 minutes ago, ChaangNoi said:

Well there is the road and the river, and then on the left there is government land that is not market but you can tell as there is old tree growth, on the right, the line they are saying goes into a field. The marker is a painted fence post and a bamboo stick...

 

So... What to do? This chanote is 80 years old and the river moved. If there were markers they are long gone.

 

Definition of a Chanot paper

,  The title deed contains a legal description of the land boundary markers that are carefully ascertained and referenced by satellite images. 

So on the Chanot paper you should have the post's detailed that correspond with the posts on the land, i'm guessing that being as it 80 years old then perhaps it is not a Chanot, but like i said i'm no expert so perhaps it is best to wait for someone to come along who is.

If it is a Chanot and there are no land markers then you would have to get the land office to come out and survey.

 

[thedemon]

There is land like that on the banks of the Chao Phraya in Bangkok & surrounds.

 

If the Chanote show a piece of land ending at the river but in reality there is a slice of land between that land and the water then it is government owned and under control of the Harbour department.

 

I have been told that it is possible to request permission to make use that land but I don't think it is easy to get. Certainly you can't build a permanent structure on it.

 

It sounds like you are upcountry somewhere so it could be a completely different situation but I would be very careful if you are planning on building a waterfront house there.

[ChaangNoi]

Yeah I get that, but what about the "new" land. Who owns that land?

[thedemon]

I only have experience of this situation in Bangkok. But if the situation you describe occurred here, then the "new" land is still water on paper and therefore belongs to the harbour department.

Edited January 8, 2017 by thedemon

[ChaangNoi]

8 minutes ago, thedemon said:

I only have experience of this situation in Bangkok. But if the situation you describe occurred here, then the "new" land is still water on paper and therefore belongs to the harbour department.

 

That is what I was thinking, thanks....

[Gulfsailor]

10 minutes ago, thedemon said:

I only have experience of this situation in Bangkok. But if the situation you describe occurred here, then the "new" land is still water on paper and therefore belongs to the harbour department.

But following that logic it would mean if the river changed so it flows through your land you can claim ownership of that part of the river as in paper it's still land? I doubt that. 

In my humble option, if the Chanote has written that the boundary is the river and there are no physical markers, who could even proof that there is any extra new land. Text supersedes the image/drawing. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Gulfsailor

[thedemon]

3 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

But following that logic it would mean if the river changed so it flows through your land you can claim ownership of that part of the river? I doubt that. 

In my humble option, if the Chanote has written that the boundary is the river and there are no physical markers, who could even proof that there is any extra new land. Text supersedes the image/drawing. 

 

If the river erodes your land then it is your responsibility to protect it e.g. build concrete flood walls.

 

Any land that has a Chanote has been surveyed and the Land Department knows precisely where the boundary begins and ends even if the markers are no longer there.

[ChaangNoi]

I'm going to guess I'm not going to have the ability to tell the guys growing corn on the land to <deleted> off. That sadly makes it not worth while.

[fruitman]

9 minutes ago, thedemon said:

If the river erodes your land then it is your responsibility to protect it e.g. build concrete flood walls.

 

 

I agree that you will be the one who has to protect your land against the river.

But i was in a hotel in PAttaya last week and the sea had eroded the sand infront of that hotels' pool...the hotel put simple sandbags on the beach to stop it from eroding but that looked awfull ugly and won't last long i guess.

 

It is a 5* hotel so i was thinking why they built that simple sandbag wall and not a nice stone/concrete wall. Their pool is there for many years and so is the sea of course. There must be a good reason why they didn't build a decent wall between their pool and the sea/beach.

 

But who owns the land from the river? Well i guess it's not the landowner of the land next to it.  I wouldn't dare to build anything on that piece, you never know in Thailand..Also for building a house close to the river i would make sure it's on much higher land which won't erode after a period of much rain.

 

 

[ChaangNoi]

After some thought we feel mislead by the sellers and will walk, thanks for all your help.

[blackcab]

Rivers are owned by the State (CCC 1304 (2).

 

Islands within waterways are also the property of the State (CCC 1309).

 

CCC Section 1308 states that, "Where land is formed by alluvion, it becomes the property of the riparian owner".

 

This means that if the water has deposited soil which has added to the existing land, then the land owner will own the newly created land also.

 

This, however, is a judgement call by the Land Office. If you were interested I would insist on a new Land Office survey before you purchase. However be aware that if the Land Office take the view that it is alluvial land then the land size recorded on the chanote might increase.

 

If you have negotiated a per square wah/per rai price then the land would cost you more.

[Crossy]

Nice one BlackCab :)

 

I agree, if you are still interested get a re-survey done by the land office, it won't cost much and would be a wise investment on such an old title anyway, who knows what's gone on at the extremities over the past 80 years.

 

We have khlongs on 3 ¹/₂ sides of our land and I had a survey done before building the perimeter (retaining) wall built just to be sure. It turned out that one of the markers was going to be about ¹/₂ a metre into the khlong. Land chap told us to put a pile in and backfill so we gained about 10m², of course nothing was written down but our boundary matches the chanote and everyone is happy.

 

 

[alfieconn]

11 hours ago, Gulfsailor said:

But following that logic it would mean if the river changed so it flows through your land you can claim ownership of that part of the river as in paper it's still land? I doubt that. 

In my humble option, if the Chanote has written that the boundary is the river and there are no physical markers, who could even proof that there is any extra new land. Text supersedes the image/drawing. 

 

Where has the Op said that it is written that the boundary is the river ? how could a river be a boundary when it is constantly changing ?

[blackcab]

Just now, alfieconn said:

 

Where has the Op said that it is written that the boundary is the river ? how could a river be a boundary when it is constantly changing ?

 

"The chanote shows the land going from the road to the river..."

 

Rivers, waterways and the edge of shores are used as boundaries. These can change over time, and there are procedures to allocate newly created land.

[alfieconn]

6 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

"The chanote shows the land going from the road to the river..."

 

Rivers, waterways and the edge of shores are used as boundaries. These can change over time, and there are procedures to allocate newly created land.

 

I doubt very much that that is the case for a Chanot title   The title deed contains a legal description of the land boundary markers that are carefully ascertained and referenced by satellite images. 

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, alfieconn said:

 

I doubt very much that that is the case for a Chanot title   The title deed contains a legal description of the land boundary markers that are carefully ascertained and referenced by satellite images. 

 

I've personally had to supervise quite a quantity of land being surveyed. The last piece was about 30 rai, divided into 1 rai plots, which took the surveyors about 3 days. The land had private roads going through and also a waterway along one side.

 

I can assure you that the surveyors did not use satellite images. They used theodolites and they marked every boundary change with a post.

[ChaangNoi]

Thanks blackcab, that info might be very helpful.

[alfieconn]

1 hour ago, blackcab said:

 

I've personally had to supervise quite a quantity of land being surveyed. The last piece was about 30 rai, divided into 1 rai plots, which took the surveyors about 3 days. The land had private roads going through and also a waterway along one side.

 

I can assure you that the surveyors did not use satellite images. They used theodolites and they marked every boundary change with a post.

 

 

I wasn't really making reference to how the boundary markers were done just the fact that they were done, but your now implying that they don't have to be done as a River can be used as a boundary line, anyway like i said i'm no expert and you seem to know what you are talking about !

[blackcab]

23 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

 

 

I wasn't really making reference to how the boundary markers were done just the fact that they were done, but your now implying that they don't have to be done as a River can be used as a boundary line, anyway like i said i'm no expert and you seem to know what you are talking about !

 

The markers are placed along the edge of the waterway, a little way back from the edge of the bank.

[alfieconn]

5 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

The markers are placed along the edge of the waterway, a little way back from the edge of the bank.

 

So the markers or boundary line are fixed !

 

Well earlier you said  

Quote

Rivers, waterways and the edge of shores are used as boundaries. These can change over time,

 

I'm totally lost now 

[blackcab]

5 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

 

So the markers or boundary line are fixed !

 

Well earlier you said  

 

I'm totally lost now 

 

I apologise for the confusion. Natural features such as waterways can and often do delineate boundaries. This is not unique to Thailand; it happens in other countries and even between different nations.

 

In Thailand, with Chanote land, if there is a natural feature such as a waterway, this will be delineated with a marker post.

[ChaangNoi]

Talked to the Land department today and they said that I would not be able to build a house on the new land but I would be able to have control over it. I can build a fish pond and a small sala.

 

I'm pretty happy with this as it about double the land. We can't build as close to the river as we wanted but think over all it is good.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by ChaangNoi