More Britons want greater control of immigration than EU free trade - poll

[steve187]

49 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

If you are going to use the EU freedom of movement regulations as they apply to qualifying non EEA national family members; read them first!

 

You will find that if they both wanted to live in Germany the British friend could use the EU regulations whereas the German would have to meet whatever the requirements of the German immigration rules are.

 

If they both chose to live in any other EEA state then they could both use the EU regulations.

The threads about the UK, not Germany.

and thank you but i did know the widely known information you quoted, but as i said not applicable to this thread, but my on topic post, was directed at my quoted post, which stated the UK was in control of immigration

Edited January 11, 2017 by steve187

[steve187]

59 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 I agree that immigrants should learn the language of the country in which they have chosen to live; how's your Thai, by the way?

we are not immigrants look at the visa, ''non immigrant''

[7by7]

37 minutes ago, steve187 said:

The threads about the UK, not Germany.

and thank you but i did know the widely known information you quoted, but as i said not applicable to this thread, but my on topic post, was directed at my quoted post, which stated the UK was in control of immigration

 

But it is still relevant, as you were claiming that the freedom of movement regulations discriminated against British citizens and their non EEA national spouses.

 

The freedom of movement regulations apply equally to all EEA members, and Switzerland.

 

34 minutes ago, steve187 said:

we are not immigrants look at the visa, ''non immigrant''

 

That lame excuse; again.

 

Until someone has Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK, they are not technically an immigrant; just as you are not technically an immigrant in Thailand.

 

Non EEA nationals coming to live temporarily in the UK, to work or study, have to prove their English ability before they get their visa.

 

Spouses etc. have to prove their English ability at least three times, each time to a higher standard than the last, before they can obtain ILR.

 

How many times have you had to prove your Thai ability to Thai immigration or the MFA?

 

Edit; Nationals of an Anglophone country, e.g. Australia, the USA, are exempt from the UK's English language requirement, of course.

Edited January 11, 2017 by 7by7
Addendum

[7by7]

5 hours ago, LammyTS1 said:

A very good example amongst many others.

In London, immigrant taxi drivers undercutting fares and then driving you to the wrong destination. Upon disembarkation at the correct location, they ask for additional fee than what was quoted. I thought all London cabs had to go through strict tests & vetting?

 

You know this from personal experience, or is it something you've heard about from others?

 

Taxi and private hire (mini cabs and Uber) drivers in London are licenced and regulated; as they are everywhere else in the UK. If you receive such treatment, or have any other reason to complain, take details, including the taxi licence number and/or registration number of the vehicle, and contact the local authority who licences drivers in that area; in London that's the Public Carriage Office at TfL.

 

 

[superal]

On 10/01/2017 at 8:43 PM, 7by7 said:

As is usual in any topic which mentions UK immigration, especially from the EU/EEA, a lot of ignorant garbage has been posted.

 

1) Leaving the EU will have absolutely no effect on immigration to the UK from outside the EEA. That has always been under the UK government's control. This includes dealing with refugees and asylum seekers.

2) Approximately 1.5 million British citizens take advantage of the freedom of movement regulations to live in other EEA countries. Many of these are retired.

Most of the EEA migrants living in the UK are young, fit and working.

Who is a greater strain on the welfare and health services of their host state; an elderly Brit in Spain or a working and taxpaying Pole in the UK?3) Yes, EEA nationals legally in the UK can, once qualified, claim most of the public funds available to British citizens; as can British citizens living in other EEA member states. Two people have already posted a comparison, so I wont do so again here.

 

But remember, an EEA national who enters their host state as a jobseeker cannot claim any public funds and if they haven't found work within three months they have to leave.

 

An EEA national who is working in their host state and loses that job can claim benefits on the same basis as a national of that state; but if they haven't found work within three months the money stops and they have to leave.

 

Unless, in both cases, they can satisfy the relevant authority that they have a reasonable certainty of finding work in the very near future.

 

4) Yes, some EEA migrants do work cash in hand and pay no tax; but so do some British citizens!

 

The difference being that if or when an EEA national is caught they will be deported and not allowed back in.

 

5) As usual in such topics, most of the anti immigration comments are coming from people who are themselves living in a country other than their own.

 

No doubt they will make the usual excuse that they do not scrounge of the system in their host country and make a positive contribution to their host nation. Exactly the same as most EEA migrants do in the UK!

 

All of the above has been posted many times before in various topics; but some people prefer blind prejudice to facts.

Item 1 , What's your point ? I think we all understand that there 2 kinds of immigrant , EEA and non EEA  and Brexit should allow the control of EEA job seekers who undermine the wage of skilled British workers and even the government basic wage . Many are brought in by agents , not individuals but by the coach load . The PAYE system is rarely used as the agency as a contractor will be paid directly by the client and then the monies are paid to the workers at a minimal wage to avoid taxes with the remainder paid into limited / umbrella company accounts .  Its time that UK nationalists were considered first when it comes to employment and when the market is exhausted then consideration be given to foreign labour to fill the voids . Many  Asylum seeker arrive in their droves   ( not through Calais but many other means , e.g. forged p/p )  to claim automatic benefits at an alarming cost . Once they step off that plane at Heathrow Trml 3 they know they will not be deported because of the lengthy  legal process .

Item 2 ,  Many Brits are retired and live in USA , Thailand etc , so what ? they are self supporting and make no demands on their chosen countries services . In fact they are truly making a financial contribution .

Item 3 ,  Currently 15,000 Polish on job seekers allowance in the UK .  2.7 million  EEA workers in the UK ,  1.2 million UK workers spread around the whole of Europe .  Thats just for starters , beginning to get the picture ?

Item 4 ,  Accepted on deportation but only if they have proof of their country of origin , conveniently many lose their PPs and are told to report in person at the local Gov; office but they are never to be seen again 

Item 5 ,  I think you are trying to incite reaction as all you say is false and the actual truth is completely the opposite . I have given you the facts and if you need further convincing try the Office of National Statistics but you will probably call that a load of garbage too . 

[Laughing Gravy]

It would seem that even Mark Carney now sees that the UK leaving the EU is more of a problem for the EU than the UK. So I believe people should get use to the fact the UK are getting out, taking back control of its borders, sovereignty and trade. The constant gloomy outlook by some people/posters and negativity is disappointing.

it is fine to have a different point of view but the constant whining about leaving the EU, is monotonous. I wouldn't want such negative people on my team.

 

PS. I posted the article as I know it is a pay site thanks to R. Murdoch.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hard-brexit-more-risky-for-europe-than-us-says-carney-l2m27666k

 

The Bank of England will upgrade its UK growth forecast next month, Mark Carney has signalled as he warned that Brexit could trigger a worse financial crisis on the Continent than in Britain.

The governor told MPs that the recent slew of solid economic data had made it likely that the Bank would raise its forecast for UK growth for the second time since the referendum.

He claimed that Europe’s dependence on London for finance services put it at greater risk of a banking crash and an economic slowdown than the UK in the event of a hard Brexit with no transition arrangements.

Taking a tough line with Brussels, which wants to use transition talks as a bargaining chip, Mr Carney said: “I think that the financial stability risks around that process are greater on the Continent than they are for the UK.”

 

Mr Carney’s words suggest that the government could use the City as leverage in negotiations once Article 50 is triggered in March and the two-year process of leaving the EU begins.

Businesses in Europe rely on the City to hedge against risks such as currency moves and changes in interest rates. European banks also need access to Britain’s deep financial markets for their own funding and stability.

Without a process to smooth the transition to a new relationship, a sudden cut-off two years after Article 50 is triggered could cause “unforeseeable moves in markets” that could have a “Jenga” effect which toppled the system, Mr Carney said.

 

British banks and businesses would not face such severe disruption because they would continue to have access to those markets. He added that Brexit was no longer the biggest threat to financial stability in the UK but could “amplify” global risks such as a China slowdown.

UK ministers such as Philip Hammond and David Davis have backed calls for a transition agreement but Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has demanded that the UK agrees a divorce settlement of up to £60 billion.

 

Mr Carney addressed his comments to the Treasury select committee, revealing that the Bank was likely to raise its UK growth forecast at its next update next month.

Mr Carney has come under attack over the Bank’s gloomy outlook since Brexit and his warning before the referendum of an immediate “technical recession”. Having cut its 2017 growth forecast sharply to 0.8 per cent in August, it raised it to 1.4 per cent in November and is poised to do so again.

Mr Carney said: “The slowdown we predicted has not yet transpired. That was a surprise.”

Official trade and manufacturing data yesterday underlined the resilience of the economy. Britain’s factories grew by 1.3 per cent in November and exports returned to growth for the first time since June.

Despite the forecasting errors, Mr Carney said that he disagreed with the Bank’s chief economist, Andy Haldane, who last week said the economics profession was “to some degree in crisis”, having experienced a “Michael Fish” moment in failing to predict the financial crisis. “One doesn’t always agree with one’s colleagues,” Mr Carney said.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Laughing Gravy

[The Old Bull]

Leaving the EU will not keep out the cannibals and muslims!

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/brexit      

[sd44]

This just goes to show how racist and xenophobic Brits have become.
The country is rapidly going down the pan.
Shameful.

Ahh the racist insults again[emoji57]. There is nothing wrong with realising that the gp's, nhs and housing situation is at breaking point. Freedom of movement silly. Top heavy Europe now and much more people from poor countries have come to the richer countries. Be interesting to see how many Brits, German, French etc have actually migrated to Romania and other similar poorer countries. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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[sd44]

 
Or how sensible and pragmatic they can be when they consider the absolute security shambles that exists in modern Europe due this open border nonsense.

Exactly!

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[sd44]

For wanting control over its own borders? I'd suggest that's a perfectly normal desire for any country and is the same for most countries of the world. Or do you think it's only the Brits who should abolish border controls and let in every Tom, Dick, or Harry?
 

I think lite beer has been drinking too much lite beer.

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[sd44]

 
Well good point? Put them all into a Ghetto. Like Hitler did with the Jews? And then deport them? Then you'll have your clean city back, you racist!

Shouldn't you be in school.

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[sd44]

 
That is a very glib response.
Perhaps I can explain why I say so.
For several years before I came to Thailand to be with my wife and daughter I worked as a taxi driver in a small city in the South West of England. It was far from my favoured occupation, but I was looking after my mother who had dementia and it was the only job which could allow me the total freedom to fix my own hours, and change them at short ,or no notice. When the doors opened to Romanian and Bulgarian migrant workers in 2014, large numbers of them arrived and took up taxi driving. The number of drivers working in my city increased by about 25%. They were clubbing together, typically in groups of three, and renting a vehicle on a weekly basis, working it 24/7.
 
To hold a taxi licence in the city in which I worked the local authority required that you held a clean UK driving licence, had held it for 3 years, had been resident in that area for at least 12 months, had a verifiable work record going back for , I think two years, provide two referees as to your "good character", pass a medical, and pass a criminal record check. You also had to pass a written and practical "knowledge test", which whilst nothing like as comprehensive as that in London still required a good knowledge of the city and the surrounding area. To get your licence typically took a month, sometimes longer.
 
All these conditions were waived for the migrant drivers. We never found out why, and in fact it was made clear that if we made too much of a fuss our own licences might be re-examined. The result was that the number of drivers increased suddenly, the amount of work available did not. The public were quite vociferous in commenting on drivers who hardly spoke English, didn't know where they were going, and regularly overcharged or took circuitous routes.. There were also some issues with lone females traveling at night. Their vehicles were often squalid. Almost without exception they flouted the ban on smoking in the vehicles. No enforcement action was taken against them. In fact allegations of racism were made against a couple of my colleagues who reported particularly flagrant breaches of the rules.
 
My income dropped significantly. I don't know whether they paid tax or national insurance, but it was noticeable that when the occasional checks were being held, (the inspecting team consisted of a council licencing officer, a vehicle examiner, a police officer, and a rep from the DHSS, and possibly someone from the Inland Revenue), all the foreign drivers took the day off!
 
Perhaps this can be taken as a snapshot of the effect upon working people of this uncontrolled migration. I am sure it had a similar effect on many other trades and occupations. That is why, I am sure, the issue of immigration is as toxic as it is. To dismiss it as you did is glib. Accusations of racism and xenophobia fail to touch upon why so many are opposed to this migration.

Racism is always the first blind accusation.

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[sd44]

 
I just wanted to quote this post as it should be read and digested as much as possible.  Spot on in every way.

But how does the 3 months to find a job get enforced?

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[jpinx]

On 11/01/2017 at 2:16 AM, Nurseynutcase said:

I now live n Thailand but come from the South of England.

 

I worked in the health service and saw the unprecedented toll that mass migration took on this service.

 

We were inundated with non english speakers yet we were to pay for interpreters so that they could tell us what was wrong with them.

They  were from all nationalities.  Some of whom had lived in the UK for many years and still did not speak any english.  this is an unwanted burden on the tax-payers of the Uk (of which I am still one).

 

The open borders of the EU bring in people fleeing from not just war-torn conflicts in the world but economic migrants, as we all know once they are within the Schengen zone then they can travel to wherever they wish with impunity.  Thankfully the UK is surrounded by water.

 

Walking down my local high street it is rare to hear an English speaker, this is one of the many reasons I chose to come and live in Thailand.

 

Before anyone accuses me of being racist or xenophobic can I point out that I have friends of many races, creeds, colours and sexual orientation.

This is the post everyone should read and understand . 

[Richard W]

22 hours ago, Grouse said:

To use that loophole the Thai woman married to the German would have to live in Germany or elsewhere in the EU first.

When did that change come in?  Such a change was promised as part of Cameron's renegotiations, but the changes were lost when the UK public voted to leave.  There has been an earlier attempt to impose such a restriction, but that was overturned by the Metock decision.  Incidentally, Metock does look like a change to the law since 1975, one that was (accidentally?) introduced in directive 2004/38/EC and was then brought to governments' attention by the Metock decision.

 

I do wonder, though, if the greater rights of non-local EU nationals with respect to third country nationals has had much effect on immigration numbers.  I suspect not.

 

One change since 1975 that might be relevant is the acquisition of permanent residence after 5 years residence.  When it came in, it was not significantly more generous than what was available under UK immigration procedures.  The difference is that the UK immigration procedures have been made more difficult and more expensive, while the EU rules are more difficult to change.

[nontabury]

On January 10, 2017 at 2:41 PM, tonbridgebrit said:

Right, this is becoming ridiculous and absurd. Okay, if you've got something against more and more curry shops in England, I don't support your view, but still, you're entitled to your view. So, you don't want to see more and more Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in England. And maybe you don't want to see more and more black people (from the West Indies and Nigeria) coming into Britain.

But, what is so wrong about the shop pictured above, in Britain ?? Surely, hardly anybody has got something against a few more shops like this in Britain ? So, this type of shop is symbolic of Polish and Eastern European people in England. look, if you're not from Eastern Europe, you can still go in there, and buy something. What's so bad about this type of shop ?

And again, I say this. "Hard Brexit" is acually about reducing the freedom of movement of EU nationals coming into Britain. Reducing freedom of movement of people from the EU into Britain is NOT about reducing the number of Nigerians and Pakistanis entering Britain. People who want no more coloureds to enter into Britain and who support a 'hard Brexit", they're actually supporting a system that will basically reduce the number of Eastern Europeans (that's Polish, Romaians, Bulgarians, etc) entering into Britain.

Stop supporting a "hard Brexit". "Hard Brexit" might mean that the EU will no longer allow goods from Britain to enter into Europe with zero or minimal taxes. The EU is trying to link the issue of immigration (freedom of movement of people within the EU) with free trade with Europe. We've got to accept that, whether we like it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

Must agree with most of what you say. Though I think you are missing an important point. Briexit is not about stopping Europeans from coming to live and work in the UK, There are many factors that lead to the majority of the British people voting for Brexit, 1/ was for the ability of the U.K. to decide who can enter the UK, and how many.  Hopefully the bully boys in Brussels will not block a compromise, such as a Reasonable number and a preference for EU nationals to be allowed to gain entry, in return for a trade agreement.

[nontabury]

On 1/10/2017 at 3:32 PM, PremiumLane said:

 

So it is immigrants who are destroying the UK? Don't make me laugh, it is the neo-liberal policies of New Labour and the Cons who have done this. But don't worry they won't get blamed, cos the media will have you blaming immigrants and Muslims.

 

Multiculturalism? You mean people just getting on with each and living together, what a crazy notion that is. Guess you shouldn't be in Thailand then, if you think like that. 

 

   You mean members of the Muslim faith who are integrating into the British way of life in many northern towns, such as Rotherham.

[superal]

9 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

   You mean members of the Muslim faith who are integrating into the British way of life in many northern towns, such as Rotherham.

[nottocus]

Can't say I blame them. If you want immigrants, surely you need to choose quality ones.

[superal]

1 hour ago, The Old Bull said:

Leaving the EU will not keep out the cannibals and muslims!

Thats another problem area to be addressed but let's get the Euro / Brexit sorted first . Suggest Nigel Farage be appointed to steer the project as he appears to be the only person who knows whats going on and says it as it is . Mainline politicians fear him and have no chance in a one to one debate because he is so well informed of the facts and stats . We want our country back .

[jpinx]

If Austria gets this concession - it makes a good case for UK as well.

 

".........Austria's centre-left chancellor has said he will ask the EU to let local employers hire Austrians before other EU citizens, unless there are no suitable candidates. ...."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38591640

 

 

[Andrew65]

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

You know this from personal experience, or is it something you've heard about from others?

 

Taxi and private hire (mini cabs and Uber) drivers in London are licenced and regulated; as they are everywhere else in the UK. If you receive such treatment, or have any other reason to complain, take details, including the taxi licence number and/or registration number of the vehicle, and contact the local authority who licences drivers in that area; in London that's the Public Carriage Office at TfL.

 

 

It's the same in Brisbane Australia. Get an asian driver and you'll almost certainly get driven 'around the block'. I spent quite a bit of time there, so got to know my way around a bit.

[dick dasterdly]

Its hardly suprising that the number of Brits now responding that they prefer controlled borders to EU free trade is increasing - as the immediate Armageddon promised by politicians and experts was proven to be incorrect, and most (all?) were worried about this.

 

The politicians/experts and media shot themselves in the foot IMO, as the populace now has even less reason to believe them .

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

If Austria gets this concession - it makes a good case for UK as well.

 

".........Austria's centre-left chancellor has said he will ask the EU to let local employers hire Austrians before other EU citizens, unless there are no suitable candidates. ...."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38591640

 

 

The problem is that this allows the government to keep salaries low.

 

I used to work in a school that employed quite a few teachers from other countries - because new teachers weren't/aren't (?) paid enough to attract enough Brits. to go into teaching.

 

Nursing had the same problem, which is why in my previous local hospital there were so many Filipino nurses - not to mention the number of foreign GPs. 

 

How much money is put into training enough new Brit. doctors and nurses?  Genuine question, as I don't know - whereas I'm fairly sure there weren't enough trained previously as it was cheaper to employ foreign teachers/nurses/doctors.

[7by7]

9 hours ago, superal said:

<snip>

What's your point ?

 An attempt to educate the ignorant. Seems to have failed in your case!

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

It's the same in Brisbane Australia. Get an asian driver and you'll almost certainly get driven 'around the block'. I spent quite a bit of time there, so got to know my way around a bit.

 I don't know how the licencing and regulation of taxi and private hire drivers works in Australia; but, as I said, in the UK taxi and private hire drivers are licensed and regulated and so anyone getting ripped off like that should take the driver and vehicle details and make a complaint.

 

If guilty of such behaviour the driver could lose his taxi or private hire licence; a certainty if they are a repeat offender.

[superal]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 An attempt to educate the ignorant. Seems to have failed in your case!

Your derogatory comment clearly demonstrates a failure to support a valid debate . 

[nontabury]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 An attempt to educate the ignorant. Seems to have failed in your case!

 

  Disappointed in you 7 by 7. Even  though we sometimes disagree,I have allways respected your point of view. Yet this remark comes over, more like a post from our resident whisky drinking, Mr Arrogant.

[7by7]

7 hours ago, superal said:

Your derogatory comment clearly demonstrates a failure to support a valid debate . 

 

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

  Disappointed in you 7 by 7. Even  though we sometimes disagree,I have allways respected your point of view. Yet this remark comes over, more like a post from our resident whisky drinking, Mr Arrogant.

 

Maybe the 'seems to have failed in your case' comment was a bit OTT; but as the rest of the post I was responding to is full of ignorant comments which bear little or no relationship to the facts of EU immigration, I feel it was justified.

 

BTW, when I use the word 'ignorant' I mean it's actual definition of 'lacking knowledge' and not as an insult.