Refugees in Greece and Serbia forced to endure sub-zero temperatures

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, DM07 said:

Mostly because Saudi Arabia (as UAE among others) treat THEIR OWN way better than any foreigner.

Just do some research on the working conditions for low income jobs in Qatar (building the stadiums for the next football world cup) or the UAE (haven your passport taken away, basically being a slave at the mercy of your master).

Maybe YOU would like to work and live like that?

Many people still do, because it is STILL BETTER, than what they have at home!

I have worked in UAE. 

Plenty jobs for these economic migrants also in Qatar & Saudi Arabia yet they cross continents to reach Europe?

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

If that were the case then they would not on average succeed at a higher rate and raise children who do better on average at school, would they?   No, they would become the benefits class who are actually by a far higher ratio British born people.  Your imagination has gotten the better of you, the scrounges are the British, not the immigrants.  The immigrants pay far higher taxes than they take back in benefits and help feed the British benefits scrounges.

 

What portion of UK citizens are on unemployment benefits due to mass uncontrolled migration? 

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Once again, the OP itself mixes the terms, not my invention. I would suggest that this confusion is not merely the media's doing, but does reflect the unclear status of many of these people. Not all are refugees, not all are accorded asylum.

 

Borders exist for refugees as well, although some posters seem oblivious to it. Entering a country in an illegal manner, while practiced, is  not their right.

 

You should try to come up with actual massacres, such as you warned about, happening with regard to the current crisis. As far as I recall, there weren't any. A regular reality? In Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia - I think not.

 

What you mostly demonstrate is rudeness, not much else.

 

There is no way for the OP to know from looking at a line of people who is currently seeking asylum and who is a migrant, what is clear is that they are all stood in the cold, being a humane type I feel for them all regardless of their legal status, their past fortunes or misfortunes, I see them all as humans and all in the same current situation, which looks quite miserable.

 

It may not be the right of the refugee to enter, but once they have it is their right not to be returned,I really have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

 

You missed the suicide attacks on refugee camps on the Jordanian border last year then?  And the mortar attacks on Turkish camps?

 

I reserve the right to be rude to anyone implying that refugees are illegal immigrants.

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

They do, Saudi took 2.5 million refugees, people in the UK are moaning about a pledge to take 20,000 over the next 4 years, and they feel the need to lie about how many other countries have taken in attempt to take the attention away from their own lack of humanity, shameful stuff.

 

20,000 too many. Why should the UK spend money to bring economic migrants from an alien continent to their shores? 

A refugee will travel to a neighbouring country for safety.

There are no refugees fleeing into Europe, only economic migrants. Let's get that straight! 

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

What portion of UK citizens are on unemployment benefits due to mass uncontrolled migration? 

 

Zero?  The simple fact is we would not be able to afford their benefits without the contribution of the migrants, there is nothing stopping British people working as hard as the migrants and getting the jobs themselves, there is nothing stopping them moving to a different part of the country where there is a labor shortage the migrants are filling, there is nothing stopping them doing the dirty jobs the migrants welcome, nothing except an entitled attitude.

[Shawn0000]

2 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

20,000 too many. Why should the UK spend money to bring economic migrants from an alien continent to their shores? 

A refugee will travel to a neighbouring country for safety.

There are no refugees fleeing into Europe, only economic migrants. Let's get that straight! 

 

Shameful, there are posters on here with more compassion for a stay dog than a family fleeing war.

The neighboring countries are full, the UK should spend as we helped caused this surge of extremism through our senseless and illegal wars, but most importantly because we are humane. 

A refugee will travel where a refugee will travel, it's up to them. 

No, we cannot call your nonsense getting that straight, we can call it getting that twisted though.

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

We are obligated to offer asylum to anyone whose life is in danger from returning, a better life means one without ISIS, nothing about comparisons to any country than the one they are fleeing from, understand? 

 

You believe ISIS does not exist in Europe?

Good one....

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, tubby johnson said:

Not refugees, but migrants 

 

Refugees are women, children, sick, elderly. I pity them.

 

These are young, healthy men aged 20-30. Opportunists, welfare whores and primitive islamists. First they ruined their own countries, now they want to take their violent and inbred behaviour to civilised countries.

 

Correct. There are no refugees entering UK, only economic migrants. 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

There is no way for the OP to know from looking at a line of people who is currently seeking asylum and who is a migrant, what is clear is that they are all stood in the cold, being a humane type I feel for them all regardless of their legal status, their past fortunes or misfortunes, I see them all as humans and all in the same current situation, which looks quite miserable.

 

It may not be the right of the refugee to enter, but once they have it is their right not to be returned,I really have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

 

You missed the suicide attacks on refugee camps on the Jordanian border last year then?  And the mortar attacks on Turkish camps?

 

I reserve the right to be rude to anyone implying that refugees are illegal immigrants.

 

It is the business of the OP, professional journalism and all that, to verify the information presented. Why would there be no way for the OP to discern between migrant and refugee? The report seems to make this distinction on other references. Or, perhaps, it is as said in my posts - a bit unclear who's who. This has nothing to do with your moralizing.

 

It is correct that in practice, once in, not that easy to reverse things. Many of these people crossed over from Turkey, and did so illegally. If one was to adopt your views, it would seem that borders and rules do not apply - since the same claim ("once they are in") could be applied if and when they decided to move to another country, illegally.

 

I missed massacres and genocides in camps as you described, or attacks being a regular occurrence, as you claimed. A far cry from what you bring up now. But do go on about hyperbole...

 

Refugees are sometimes illegal immigrants. If the only thing you can offer in response is rudeness, that says something about the strength of your argument, and about yourself.

[LammyTS1]

2 hours ago, DavidVincent said:

One more ignorant of the reality of things...and sound a bit racist as well

Most of the time their countries are ruined by US, Europe and UK...

 

Their war torn countries were ruined over 1000 years ago, long before the US even existed. 

[Shawn0000]

39 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

"THEY"

 

Well, it's the center of Sunni Islam, they should take them all especially when it's Saudi meddling that caused the drama in the first place.

 

This war was the best thing that ever happened to scores of those people. Notice how none stay in Greece or Turkey? Headed to northern EU.

 

It was as much us as them, so by your logic we should take half!

 

The war has not been the best thing that happened to many, just some arms dealers, much like all wars. 

 

No, not many stay in Greece, funny that, leaving their bombed out remains of a home with only that which they can carry, using the last of their money to buy their way to safety, and as they try to decide the best for their family now they have to start again from scratch they don't choose to seek asylum in a country with a completely destroyed economy, I wonder why?  Perhaps it is because they are not looking for a life where they have little opportunity to work and will be reliant on handouts but actually want the chance to work, contribute and succeed.

[Shawn0000]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It is the business of the OP, professional journalism and all that, to verify the information presented. Why would there be no way for the OP to discern between migrant and refugee? The report seems to make this distinction on other references. Or, perhaps, it is as said in my posts - a bit unclear who's who. This has nothing to do with your moralizing.

 

It is correct that in practice, once in, not that easy to reverse things. Many of these people crossed over from Turkey, and did so illegally. If one was to adopt your views, it would seem that borders and rules do not apply - since the same claim ("once they are in") could be applied if and when they decided to move to another country, illegally.

 

I missed massacres and genocides in camps as you described, or attacks being a regular occurrence, as you claimed. A far cry from what you bring up now. But do go on about hyperbole...

 

Refugees are sometimes illegal immigrants. If the only thing you can offer in response is rudeness, that says something about the strength of your argument, and about yourself.

 

The original article has been deleted.

 

What is the obsession with refugees crossing borders illegally?  And no, it is quite a different case is someone enters a country illegally and then claims asylum to if someone granted asylum starts crossing borders illegally, anyone could see that, these are people desperately escaping persecution, the rules are bent for them a little by people with a notion of humanity left within them.

 

There have been massacres of thousands in refugee camps in history, the examples I gave were from this conflict, as you asked, the needs of all refugees remain the same even before another massacre or genocide happens, that should be obvious. 

Anyway, there have been loads of attacks on refugee camps within Syria, most of them are on the borders, there is a clear need to allow people to not only exit the country but also to keep moving a little, as is further evidenced by ISIS entering the neighboring camps to recruit members.  Or perhaps you would prefer to see us play straight into the hands of ISIS and keep the Syrians locked up and nearby so they can get at them?

 

And really, I reserve the right to be rude to anyone implying that refugees are criminals.

[LammyTS1]

 
Zero?  The simple fact is we would not be able to afford their benefits without the contribution of the migrants, there is nothing stopping British people working as hard as the migrants and getting the jobs themselves, there is nothing stopping them moving to a different part of the country where there is a labor shortage the migrants are filling, there is nothing stopping them doing the dirty jobs the migrants welcome, nothing except an entitled attitude.

Why should UK citizens move their homes elsewhere due to the mass influx of immigrants taking their jobs?


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[Shawn0000]

7 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

Why should UK citizens move their homes elsewhere due to the mass influx of immigrants taking their jobs?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

They shouldn't, they should apply for the jobs in their area that the immigrants are taking, they should only move if there are no jobs at all, and move to one of the areas like I suggested, where there is a labor shortage that immigrants are filling.  The problem is that unemployed British people are just not willing to put themselves out like the immigrants, so they don't get the jobs.

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

The original article has been deleted.

 

What is the obsession with refugees crossing borders illegally?  And no, it is quite a different case is someone enters a country illegally and then claims asylum to if someone granted asylum starts crossing borders illegally, anyone could see that, these are people desperately escaping persecution, the rules are bent for them a little by people with a notion of humanity left within them.

 

There have been massacres of thousands in refugee camps in history, the examples I gave were from this conflict, as you asked, the needs of all refugees remain the same even before another massacre or genocide happens, that should be obvious. 

Anyway, there have been loads of attacks on refugee camps within Syria, most of them are on the borders, there is a clear need to allow people to not only exit the country but also to keep moving a little, as is further evidenced by ISIS entering the neighboring camps to recruit members.  Or perhaps you would prefer to see us play straight into the hands of ISIS and keep the Syrians locked up and nearby so they can get at them?

 

And really, I reserve the right to be rude to anyone implying that refugees are criminals.

 

Not too clear about what was deleted - the OP is still at the first post of this topic (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/962992-refugees-in-greece-and-serbia-forced-to-endure-sub-zero-temperatures/#comment-11508361), , and can be found here - http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/10/refugees-in-greece-and-serbia-forced-to-endure-sub-zero-temperatures

 

There is no "obsession". The refugees arriving in Greece, were for the most part, offered such asylum and reprieve in Turkey. The EU even funded some of the related efforts. That you feel it is their right to enter Greece illegally afterwards, and claim asylum wherever is not quite, I believe, how the EU sees it. And again, your moralizing is pathetic and irrelevant.

 

Yes, I'm aware that there were massacres which occurred in refugee camps, "in history". Your reference was to such things happening at this time, on a regular basis and bringing up "genocide" and "slaughter". The examples you cited were nothing on par with what you advertised earlier. If you think that a "genocide" of those refugees in the camps is an inevitable future result, we'll have to disagree. And notably, I did not mention refugee camps within Syria. The rest of your ISIS scaremongering is again of the sky is falling variety.

 

Evidently, the same creative imagination evident in your posts is applied to your supposed "rights" on this forum.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

They shouldn't, they should apply for the jobs in their area that the immigrants are taking, they should only move if there are no jobs at all, and move to one of the areas like I suggested, where there is a labor shortage that immigrants are filling.  The problem is that unemployed British people are just not willing to put themselves out like the immigrants, so they don't get the jobs.

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/962752-more-britons-want-greater-control-of-immigration-than-eu-free-trade-poll/?page=2#comment-11507906

[LammyTS1]

 
They shouldn't, they should apply for the jobs in their area that the immigrants are taking, they should only move if there are no jobs at all, and move to one of the areas like I suggested, where there is a labor shortage that immigrants are filling.  The problem is that unemployed British people are just not willing to put themselves out like the immigrants, so they don't get the jobs.

Here is a personal example:
A qualified Accountant and Project Manager who's dept closes down and the only people within this dept that are moved elsewhere within the company are 3 women, one is Chinese, one is Nigerian and the other from Czech Republic. All other dept employees that are UK citizens are paid off.
Why? I can only make suggestions. One is that their immigration status would be in danger if out of work so they get preferential treatment.
This one example merely shows that it is certainly not the case of immigrants doing jobs that UK citizens do not want to do.
Immigrants come into Europe to also look for highly paid Professional vocations that many of the local population look for and want to do.


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[elliss]

On 1/11/2017 at 11:32 AM, 4737 Carlin said:

They haven't been 'forced to endure' anything. They chose to invade Europe - where they are unwanted and unwelcome.

 

                  They  are all  welcome in  UK .  

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not too clear about what was deleted - the OP is still at the first post of this topic (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/962992-refugees-in-greece-and-serbia-forced-to-endure-sub-zero-temperatures/#comment-11508361), , and can be found here - http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/10/refugees-in-greece-and-serbia-forced-to-endure-sub-zero-temperatures

 

There is no "obsession". The refugees arriving in Greece, were for the most part, offered such asylum and reprieve in Turkey. The EU even funded some of the related efforts. That you feel it is their right to enter Greece illegally afterwards, and claim asylum wherever is not quite, I believe, how the EU sees it. And again, your moralizing is pathetic and irrelevant.

 

Yes, I'm aware that there were massacres which occurred in refugee camps, "in history". Your reference was to such things happening at this time, on a regular basis and bringing up "genocide" and "slaughter". The examples you cited were nothing on par with what you advertised earlier. If you think that a "genocide" of those refugees in the camps is an inevitable future result, we'll have to disagree. And notably, I did not mention refugee camps within Syria. The rest of your ISIS scaremongering is again of the sky is falling variety.

 

Evidently, the same creative imagination evident in your posts is applied to your supposed "rights" on this forum.

 

When I tried to open it before it said it had been deleted, there must have been a problem with the site.

 

Refugees can be invited to make a claim and turn that invite down, move on and put in a claim wherever they make it to, is that really hard to understand?  I didn't say it was their right to enter illegally, I said it was their right to put in their claim wherever they choose, how they get their is a different matter altogether, but you do seem to desperate to criminalize the refugees that it could be considered an obsession, that is clear from just how much effort you are putting into arguing in favor of them being considered illegal.

 

My reference was to the need to allow refugees to move on, nothing specific about any particular refugees, it was you who requested a case specific to Syria, I could have given different ones for the African refugees, but you wanted Syrians and Syrians was what you got.  Desperate would be the word rather than obsessed, my mistake.

 

 

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

Here is a personal example:
A qualified Accountant and Project Manager who's dept closes down and the only people within this dept that are moved elsewhere within the company are 3 women, one is Chinese, one is Nigerian and the other from Czech Republic. All other dept employees that are UK citizens are paid off.
Why? I can only make suggestions. One is that their immigration status would be in danger if out of work so they get preferential treatment.
This one example merely shows that it is certainly not the case of immigrants doing jobs that UK citizens do not want to do.
Immigrants come into Europe to also look for highly paid Professional vocations that many of the local population look for and want to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

Why, because you have no idea, more like!  Try asking the company, if the answer is not satisfactory then ask a judge at an employment tribunal.  Your one example shows nothing except your willingness to take one unknown, add some pure speculation and present it as if you have some evidence, sorry but you have nothing at all there, we don't know who had been there longer, who was more valuable to the company or what was actually offered to the employees, all we know is your little story and the fact that you yourself don't know more.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

When I tried to open it before it said it had been deleted, there must have been a problem with the site.

 

Refugees can be invited to make a claim and turn that invite down, move on and put in a claim wherever they make it to, is that really hard to understand?  I didn't say it was their right to enter illegally, I said it was their right to put in their claim wherever they choose, how they get their is a different matter altogether, but you do seem to desperate to criminalize the refugees that it could be considered an obsession, that is clear from just how much effort you are putting into arguing in favor of them being considered illegal.

 

My reference was to the need to allow refugees to move on, nothing specific about any particular refugees, it was you who requested a case specific to Syria, I could have given different ones for the African refugees, but you wanted Syrians and Syrians was what you got.  Desperate would be the word rather than obsessed, my mistake.

 

 

 

I am not trying to "criminalize the refugees", that's just another bit of moral grandstanding. I'm just not appreciative of Westerners bent on inflicting their sense of guilt over supposed past sins by their countries on all and sundry. Refugees, genuine ones, should be taken care off as best as possible. In my opinion, that does not extend to an open door policy without any checks and balances, nor does it's wide application (as you seem to suggest) a direct obligation. If you find it hard accepting that the term "refugee" does not necessarily denote angelic like qualities, or unlimited rights, that's your issue. I did not say that refugees are "illegal", but that some (or even many) of them break laws when it comes to crossing borders etc. You seem to believe that a "refugee" label, even if suspect, amounts to a free pass, no questions asked. Not buying into that, either.

 

No, you assume that there is "a need to allow refugees to move on", that's not quite the same thing as demonstrating such a need. And once again, it was you who brought up supposed "genocides" and "slaughter", and claiming these were a regular feature on refugee camps and in reference to the OP.  Then you backtracked to historical anecdotes and current instances which do not amount to what you alleged.

 

The only obsession here is with your rejection of anything not 100% in line with your views. That's kinda desperate, too.

[4737 Carlin]

21 minutes ago, elliss said:

 

                  They  are all  welcome in  UK .  

 

Yes, if you believe the state-sponsored propaganda it would appear that way.

[overherebc]

5 hours ago, DavidVincent said:

 

Because the first ones who spit on the illegal migrants are also most of the time the same one living in Thailand without knowing more than a few sentences in thai (what a good exemple of integration) and some live on benefits while here instead of trying to find their way in their own countries, because they hope for a better life, because they left their country which they love and want to protect but from far away, because they think they worth more than the the migrants, because they think all the illegal migrants are here to steal and rape while most of them are just scared and lost...because when there is no way to make them understand the ratio risk/reward for the migrant is a farcry of what they may or may not dream when migrating....

 

 

Please explain what you mean by benefits.

[DM07]

Here is a personal example:
A qualified Accountant and Project Manager who's dept closes down and the only people within this dept that are moved elsewhere within the company are 3 women, one is Chinese, one is Nigerian and the other from Czech Republic. All other dept employees that are UK citizens are paid off.
Why? I can only make suggestions. One is that their immigration status would be in danger if out of work so they get preferential treatment.
This one example merely shows that it is certainly not the case of immigrants doing jobs that UK citizens do not want to do.
Immigrants come into Europe to also look for highly paid Professional vocations that many of the local population look for and want to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

On just your last part, let me paraphrase a Louis CK- bit: if someone with no language skills, no connections can take away your job, you probably suck at it!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[simple1]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The ratio of children to adults seems to be low, according to the first link. At least in comparison to such ratios in migrants/refugees home countries. There could be various reasons for that, but I don't think that public perception is that off mark on this point.

 

The EU blaming the Greek government for being inefficient is just lame. Not as if the EU had no idea who they are dealing with. And not as if EU policies had nothing to do with contributing to the migrant/refugee situation in Greece. As for screening comment - the other option would be not to screen them and let everyone in. Wouldn't that be fun.

 

The wording of the OP's headline is unfortunate. Could have used other terms than "forced" to convey the same meaning, resulting with less antagonism.

 

The ratio of children & causal reasons has been addressed a number of times on this forum by person/s very familiar with asylum seeker / refugee issues which are understandable and logical,, though of course repeatedly ignored by those who post in these topics; perhaps you personally have not read such content.

 

Yes I agree the EU had / has not put in sufficient policies / resources / funding to asylum seeker processing both within the EU and more to the point in places such as Turkey, though IMO this does not absolve Greek authorities from very poor management of the challenges and disbursement of EU funds.

 

Of course screening has to be properly managed, but given the asylum seeker issue has been ongoing for a few years now, together with plenty of warning about the potential for a crisis, again IMO overall very poorly funded, resourced and managed.

[yogi100]

On 1/11/2017 at 1:57 PM, DM07 said:

12 posts of compassion and empathy.

Warms ones heart, really!

 

These people are after a cushy billet and they know exactly where the cushiest ones are to be found. That's why they pass through safe countries to get to the Norther European nations like Germany, Sweden and Britain.

 

What do you think they've all got mobile phones for. The word got around years ago, "Hey Abdul, get yourself up here to Cologne, it's unbelievable and the women are just crying out for it! You should have seen the larks we had on New Years Eve!"

[F4UCorsair]

9 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 

 

And really, I reserve the right to be rude to anyone implying that refugees are criminals.

 

 

Regardless of what another implies (let the moderators deal with that),  you are in breach of forum rules if you are rude to another member.

[yogi100]

On 1/11/2017 at 3:37 PM, DavidVincent said:

Having been in more than 4 countries in Africa for work and for french companies, as well as having been close to middle east refugees the last year I can assure you those people are not here to "profit" or leech on western countries.

90% of them leave a country for one they know nothing about. They leave behind them family, friends,...basically their life to come here.

They do not cross the sea on small boats, knowing them or their kids could die during the travel to profit.

Have a look at the civil wars in Africa, have a look at the history of Afghanistan, the history of Iraq, Libya, Syria..Can you assure me the western countries are for nothing in the crumbles you can see in these countries?

In Africa the french and Belgium companies are really happy the countries they work in are corrupted. They can exploit misery and make the people work in atrocious conditions, without any thought about human life and do not give a sh!t about what may happen the day after. The "franceAfrique" is not dead neither. Franc CFA is also a way to steal from Africa and maintain the countries dependent of their former western "masters"...

 

I said that more than one time, I am tired to repeat myself while you are not genuinely interested..if you are then tell me what you think of the last 30 years of war in middle east orchestrated by western countries, go have a look at the political and economical history of african countries...then you will know.

But I know it is hard to convince someone who do not want to listen...

 

It's true that Western, mainly American interference in the Middle East caused these conflicts by overthrowing so called tyrants like Gadaffi and Saddam who kept the different factions in their countries under control and thereby introducing their populations to freedom and democracy. But the behaviour of and the atrocities committed by some of these 'refugees' in Europe have made their presence in Europe unacceptable.

 

We do no like them and we not want them and many of us objected to our interference in Iraq in the first place. Their affairs were none of our business. The Americans who caused all this misery and strife should be taking them in before Trump gets behind the desk. When all's said and done a huge rich nation like the USA should face up to its moral responsibilities. And the rest of the world should put pressure on America to do so.

Edited January 12, 2017 by yogi100

[simple1]

10 hours ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

<snip>

There are no refugees fleeing into Europe, only economic migrants. Let's get that straight! 

 

Firstly the correct definition is 'asylum seeker', after they have been positively vetted they are assigned 'refugee' status. In some EU countries e.g. France, the process can take up to two years during which they are not permitted to work. In the past few years of those claiming refugee status approx 40% are positively vetted. A large majority of those rejected are actually from Balkan countries or North Africa.

[yogi100]

On 1/11/2017 at 3:47 PM, overherebc said:

 

Since the 70's I have worked in most of the middle east countries from Syria all the way west through Egypt to Libya and the other 'oil rich states'.

I was often asked why do you come here to work when you can stay in UK and your government will give you everything you need, house and money etc and you won't need to work.

That belief still remains and that's why they want to be in Europe.

 

A chum of mine got asked similar questions in South Africa by the locals. That was also in the early 1970s.

 

The UK has been referred to as the Promised Land in the West Indies for decades.