May’s Brexit: Europe responds

[jpinx]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

19,322 votes to remain and 823 to leave, so 96% in favour of remaining in the EU.  I do not claim that their wishes are any more important than yours, but I would also dispute that, on a personal level, yours are more important than theirs. In fact, it would appear that the average Gibraltarian is going to be much more negatively affected by Brexit than they average UK mainlander is going to be positively affected - especially as the benefits are so nebulous.

 

La Linea is great in June if you get there for the Domingo Rociero festival - you just need to watch your wallet.  

 

The Gib electorate certainly get my sympathy, but - unlike Scotland - they chose to be part of UK, and as in any marriage, it's "for better or for worse" until they divorce.  How Gib would deal with a divorce from UK is another topic altogether and someone else can start that thread  

[jpinx]

...From the old thread.....

AFAIK, the whole "membership of the EU" is based on a single act of Parliament which says something along the lines of "anything Brussels passes as law will become law in UK".  This allows for no debate or vote on anything that is imposed on UK and other EU members by Brussels.  I remember something about the methodology suggested by TM and her team to unravel this, and it meant copying every single statute of EU law into written UK law, and then MP's get a debate and vote on which ones to repeal. 

 

 

[JHolmesJr]

On 18 January, 2017 at 11:29 AM, uptheos said:

And don't forget President Donald J Trump hassaid we are at the front of the queue for a trade deal.

 

Only if Nigel is heading the delegation….go Nige!

[billd766]

16 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The Gib electorate certainly get my sympathy, but - unlike Scotland - they chose to be part of UK, and as in any marriage, it's "for better or for worse" until they divorce.  How Gib would deal with a divorce from UK is another topic altogether and someone else can start that thread  

 

The last referendum held in Gibraltar back in 2002 was whether Gibraltar should stay British or to share the sovereignty with Spain.

 

quote from Wikipedia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

 

On 12 July 2002 the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, in a formal statement in the House of Commons, said that after twelve months of negotiation the British Government and Spain are in broad agreement on many of the principles that should underpin a lasting settlement of Spain's sovereignty claim, which included the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar. Do you approve of the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar?
Location	Gibraltar
Date	7 November 2002
Results   Votes  % Yes 187 1.03% No 17,900 98.97% Valid votes 18,087 99.51% Invalid or blank votes 89 0.49% Total votes 18,176 100.00% Registered voters/turnout 20,678 87.9%

[maxtwo]

What about an English referendum if we should split from Scotland.

[jpinx]

Just now, maxtwo said:

What about an English referendum if we should split from Scotland.

I've been saying for ages now that any split of the United Kingdom should have a UK-wide referendum --  not only the bits that want to break free.  This involves everyone.

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I've been saying for ages now that any split of the United Kingdom should have a UK-wide referendum --  not only the bits that want to break free.  This involves everyone.

Doesn't that vitiate the right to self-determination?

[billd766]

On 18/01/2017 at 10:47 AM, oilinki said:

With all Trumps changes of opinions within days and dismissive talk about western co-operation? Really?

 

While you and Russia might be ok what and how he talks, I can assure that the rest of the western world is not.

 

Are you the officially appointed spokesman for the rest of the western world, or is that just your opinion?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, jpinx said:

I've been saying for ages now that any split of the United Kingdom should have a UK-wide referendum --  not only the bits that want to break free.  This involves everyone.

 

When the numbers are so imbalanced, that can only lead to animosity for a defined group of people who's expressed wish is denied because a different group of people don't want the same thing for the first group.

 

We are seeing that now with Brexit. By all means, the English should be entitled to do as they wish, but the Northern Irish, Gibraltarians, Scots - all distinctly different by culture - chose a different path but they are being denied the right to follow that path because the country with the much greater population disagreed.

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

We are seeing that now with Brexit. By all means, the English should be entitled to do as they wish, but the Northern Irish, Gibraltarians, Scots - all distinctly different by culture - chose a different path but they are being denied the right to follow that path because the country with the much greater population disagreed.

Odd ly enough I was under the impression that the referendum question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and simple logic suggests that the vote was about the UK. Regional differences are irrelevant. In the Scottish referendum on independence my understanding is that Glasgow alone voted for independence, every other electorate voted against it. Is your argument that the Glaswegians were somehow hard done by?

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Odd ly enough I was under the impression that the referendum question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" and simple logic suggests that the vote was about the UK. Regional differences are irrelevant. In the Scottish referendum on independence my understanding is that Glasgow alone voted for independence, every other electorate voted against it. Is your argument that the Glaswegians were somehow hard done by?

 

In all my years, I have never heard a fellow Scot declare that their nationality was Glaswegian so your argument is not valid.

 

Also, your understanding is not correct.

 

Dundee - 57.3% yes

Glasgow - 53.5% yes

North Lanarkshire - 51.1% yes

West Dunbartonshire - 54% yes

 

People born in Scotland - 52.7% yes

People born elsewhere in the UK but resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum - 27.9% yes

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Also, your understanding is not correct.

You do realize it's not going to make any difference whatsoever?

[tartempion]

The British empire is over, time you stick to your island.
I worked for several companies in Brussels and had to work with several imported British managers who saw themselves as "superior".
Good riddance.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

You do realize it's not going to make any difference whatsoever?

 

I disagree - we started the 2014 referendum with a pro-Yes base of about 30%. Next time round, we will start from a far stronger position. The impact of Brexit, the ongoing Tory war against the working class, TM's continuing drive towards authoritarianism and the erradication of dissent can only help build a case for breaking free from Westminster.

 

Also - don't dismiss the fact that more than half of Scots want to leave the UK. That in itself is a very powerful message.

Edited January 19, 2017 by RuamRudy

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I disagree - we started the 2014 referendum with a pro-Yes base of about 30%. Next time round, we will start from a far stronger position. The impact of Brexit, the ongoing Tory war against the working class, TM's continuing drive towards authoritarianism and the erradication of dissent can only help build a case for breaking free from Westminster.

I was in the UK when the Scottish referendum was held. The universal attitude of the English around me was "good riddance"

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I was in the UK when the Scottish referendum was held. The universal attitude of the English around me was "good riddance"

 

Great - then hopefully we won't be battered with the same barrage of lies and scare tactics that were employed by Westminster last time.

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Great - then hopefully we won't be battered with the same barrage of lies and scare tactics that were employed by Westminster last time.

Frankly (as a lover of schadenfreude) I was all in favor of Scottish independence

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Frankly (as a lover of schadenfreude) I was all in favor of Scottish independence

 

I don't recall if you engaged in the many TV threads that were ongoing at the time of the independence referendum, but we Scots were on the receiving end of many insults and dismissive comments. Therefore, inured as I am, I am afraid that you will need to do better than 'schadenfreude' if you are seeking to rile me. Read through the post history of some other contributors to this particular thread - they can give you a masterclass on how to insult Scots and Scotland.

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't recall if you engaged in the many TV threads that were ongoing at the time of the independence referendum, but we Scots were on the receiving end of many insults and dismissive comments. Therefore, inured as I am, I am afraid that you will need to do better than 'schadenfreude' if you are seeking to rile me. Read through the post history of some other contributors to this particular thread - they can give you a masterclass on how to insult Scots and Scotland.

I was looking forward to the total cock-up post-independence. That's what I meant by being a lover of schadenfreude. That it's the Scots is utterly irrelevant to me

Edited January 19, 2017 by SaintLouisBlues

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I was looking forward to the total cock-up post-independence. That's what I meant by being a lover of schadenfreude. That it's the Scots is utterly irrelevant to me

 

It is interesting that you take satisfaction from the idea of others suffering. I am guessing, from your User Name, avatar and the spelling conventions you employ that you are from the US? While I think that the choice of president your countrymen made is unwise, I hope for the best for your country and its people. Horses for courses, I suppose.

[jpinx]

59 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Doesn't that vitiate the right to self-determination?

Yes - it might, but to go into the fine detail of how to do this is not something that is going to be resolved on TVF Suffice to say there has to be some balance that is not going to ride roughshod over a high-profile, large minority.

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It is interesting that you take satisfaction from the idea of others suffering.

Not quite - I take satisfaction from people suffering having made foolish decisions often where the most likely outcome was evident to everyone except them. I take the same view of my countrymen who voted for Trump

[jpinx]

37 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

In all my years, I have never heard a fellow Scot declare that their nationality was Glaswegian so your argument is not valid.

 

Also, your understanding is not correct.

 

Dundee - 57.3% yes

Glasgow - 53.5% yes

North Lanarkshire - 51.1% yes

West Dunbartonshire - 54% yes

 

People born in Scotland - 52.7% yes

People born elsewhere in the UK but resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum - 27.9% yes

 

Where did you pull that little gem RR?  I'd like to use it as ammunition if it's sourced from somewhere not associated with the SNP

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Not quite - I take satisfaction from people suffering having made foolish decisions often where the most likely outcome was evident to everyone except them. I take the same view of my countrymen who voted for Trump

Can't argue with that really -- and it pays to remember that "self-determination" is not always expressed by a ballot-paper,  sometimes it's done with a bus-ticket to a place that suits the person better.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, jpinx said:

Where did you pull that little gem RR?  I'd like to use it as ammunition if it's sourced from somewhere not associated with the SNP

 

The regional votes are from the Wikipedia page on the Scottish referendum.

 

The demographic data is from as anti-SNP a source as you could find, The Daily Rangers.

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Yes - it might, but to go into the fine detail of how to do this is not something that is going to be resolved on TVF Suffice to say there has to be some balance that is not going to ride roughshod over a high-profile, large minority.

At the end of the day, the Scots (presumably) have the right to another independence referendum and, assuming they vote to leave the UK, can then try to join the EU as an independent country.

 

This sounds dismissive, and I don't mean it as harshly as it comes across - as for such a small nation, they've had a disproportionately large number of brilliant people.

 

But its irrelevant on this thread IMO, and should be kept to either the World News threads about Scotland's/Sturgeon's opinions, or start a thread on the Home forum.

Edited January 19, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The regional votes are from the Wikipedia page on the Scottish referendum.

 

The demographic data is from as anti-SNP a source as you could find, The Daily Rangers.

Thanks RR :)  That's a really nice bullet to have in some of the conversational duelling I enjoy :)

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

At the end of the day, the Scots (presumably) have the right to another independence referendum and, assuming they vote to leave the UK, can then try to join the EU as an independent country.

 

This sounds dismissive, and I don't mean it as harshly as it comes across as for such a small nation, they've had a disproportionately large number of brilliant people.

 

But its irrelevant on this thread IMO, and should be kept to either the World News threads about Scotland's/Sturgeon's opinions, or start a thread on the Home forum.

Indeed!  This is the current EU/UK/Brexit thread and it's hard enough to get people to keep up with the conversation and post in here instead of some now out-of-date thread.

 

Scotland, Gibraltar, N.Ireland, etc, are side issues which don't, as yet, affect the negotiations.  Maybe once UK is out there will be discussions about where the various parts of the UK want to be, but there's no whiff of indyref's anymore. 

[soalbundy]

48 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I was in the UK when the Scottish referendum was held. The universal attitude of the English around me was "good riddance"

The UK hasn't just left the EU it want's to dissolve completely, good riddance but who is going to give me a passport, London? Cornwall? Wales? The Channel islands perhaps or the Isle of Wight

[dick dasterdly]

9 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Indeed!  This is the current EU/UK/Brexit thread and it's hard enough to get people to keep up with the conversation and post in here instead of some now out-of-date thread.

 

Scotland, Gibraltar, N.Ireland, etc, are side issues which don't, as yet, affect the negotiations.  Maybe once UK is out there will be discussions about where the various parts of the UK want to be, but there's no whiff of indyref's anymore. 

"This is the current EU/UK/Brexit thread and it's hard enough to get people to keep up with the conversation and post in here instead of some now out-of-date thread."

 

The problem is that (understandably) things expand from the original thread heading, and nobody wants to have to re-state the same things on a new thread!  Although obviously this keeps on happening anyway (to a certain extent) as a new thread 'takes over'.