SWEDEN AT BREAKING POINT: Police make urgent plea for help as violent crime spirals

[thai3]

Liked this

 

[rott]

6 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Except it is not a sectarian issue but a separatist one, so not actually at all fair.  You are attempting comparing those who come to live in a new country with those who have been conquered by their neighbor, if you can't see how that comparison is ludicrous then I can't help you.

So you think the random murders of innocent people are acceptable because they are done in the name of separatism. It is obviously pure coincidence that they are also sectarian.

 

Bet you loved the IRA.

Edited February 21, 2017 by rott

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

 

NB: I will no longer respond to your ill informed observations regards Thailand or on other matters.

Thank goodness you put that in writing, now we can get back to the Swedish thread.

 

And stories like this do not help matters in Malmo

 

http://www.topix.com/se/malmo/2017/02/swedish-reporter-sentenced-for-smuggling-syrian-teen

[Shawn0000]

37 minutes ago, rott said:

So you think the random murders of innocent people are acceptable because they are done in the name of separatism. It is obviously pure coincidence that they are also sectarian.

 

Bet you loved the IRA.

 

What made you think I was saying it was acceptable?  All I was saying it that a separatist movement is not comparable to immigration.  Bet on what you like.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Shawn0000

[Scott]

Please stay on the topic of Sweden.   Comparisons, for the purpose of discussion are acceptable, but they need to relate to the general discussion of the thread.

 

As far as not integrating, I have to take exception to those comments.   I do know and assisted in the resettling of a large refugee population of Kurds from Iraq.   Of those, quite a number have married non-Muslims.   Of those marrying non-Muslims, none of the spouses converted to Islam.  

 

Although many were originally settled in roughly the same area, once they were working, most moved to other neighborhoods.   None of them live in the same neighborhood.   Their children all go public schools throughout the area.   None of the women wear head gear other than to religious functions -- and a few of the older parents, but they dress in 'civilian' clothes when shopping.  

 

How well most are integrated is probably open to debate at some level, but the key factor appears to be not having been able to live in one community together for an extended period of time.   I am sure they would have liked to do that, but when your job is a long ways away, it's easier to move.   Also, as they got more settled, many bought homes and this placed greater geographical distance between them.

 

Many of them only see each other once a year, at a New Roz (Kurdish New Year's ) celebration.  

[anon4546543]

There are two types of refugee. One is someone displaced due to war and moves to the closest country willing to house them. Then there are a few political refugees. Then you have legitimate migrants, those that have applied for and received approval to enter another country. Then there are illegals who turn up uninvited and demand that they be housed, fed and educated in another country. These are the scum and will only bring trouble. If you are not invited, any country that receives them is totally foolish. Europe will follow the path of France, a hot house for uneducated, low esteem, low IQ, rebellious persons that will never be a part of the already established fabric. Well done to Brexit, they may have saved themselves from a Muslim invasion.

[Flustered]

Scott, Since you brought up the subject of Kurds I feel I must respond.

 

I lived in Erbil and Dahuk for nearly 1 year before and during the Sadam overthrow, I was involved in building a new GSM network in the North of Iraq starting with the Kurdish areas. To this day, I am still in contact with the Kurds who worked for me and I could not ask for better friends.

 

As you will be aware, the Kurdish people are different in their approach to Islam and are more in tune with Zoroastrianism as well as being very tribal in support of either Mustafa Barzani (and now his son) or Jalal Talabani.

 

I believe that the Kurds can integrate and have no problem with people of the book but they are not mainstream Sunni or Shia who are the majority. The majority of Sunni and Shia Iraqis despise the Kurds and do not consider them Muslims.

 

I am not aware of any Kurdish people being involved in the Swedish issue or any other form of terrorism on the west. Yes they have their own issue with Turkey and the battle for a home country but they actively fight Islamic terrorism and the Peshmerga's are a force to be reckoned with. My driver was a co fighter alongside Jalal Talabani and regardless of hierarchy, the Kurds treat each other as equals.

 

And yes, the Kurds do integrate and set an example to the rest of Islam.

 

[anon4546543]

I see that there are calls from within Spain allow another invasion of the Muslims. I wish them well. Kurds need to get their own country back but Turkey will not allow that, the rot has set in too far. Mind you the Kurds are the only persons in the middle east that I would feel comfortable about fighting alongside. May God or Muhhamad or whoever help them, the US certainly will not.

[Scott]

I also lived in N. Iraq, but we are straying off topic.  

 

Some groups are going to be more adept at resettlement and less troublesome, but it requires planning, preparation and direction on the part of the country.  

 

One of the best ways to integrate people is to put them in school or put them to work.   Public schools exist in part to teach people to be good citizens.   Work gives people exposure to the dominant culture and how it functions in a day-to-day fashion.

 

My point is that people cannot be allowed to stagnate in places that are similar to ghettos.  

[tuktuktuk]

13 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

OK, this is found in all three books, here taken from the Bible:

 

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

You'll need to read on if you want to talk about how these verses pertain to Christianity. 

[Shawn0000]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

I also lived in N. Iraq, but we are straying off topic.  

 

Some groups are going to be more adept at resettlement and less troublesome, but it requires planning, preparation and direction on the part of the country.  

 

One of the best ways to integrate people is to put them in school or put them to work.   Public schools exist in part to teach people to be good citizens.   Work gives people exposure to the dominant culture and how it functions in a day-to-day fashion.

 

My point is that people cannot be allowed to stagnate in places that are similar to ghettos.  

 

You're right. the issues that Sweden is seeing are all to do with social living conditions, not religion, as is evidenced by the diversity of the demographics of the people causing problems.

[Shawn0000]

3 hours ago, tuktuktuk said:

You'll need to read on if you want to talk about how these verses pertain to Christianity. 

 

Did that, I found these two:

 

Luke 19:27:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 10:34:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/18/2017 at 11:46 AM, simple1 said:

To answer your question, no. As a baseline why not research Swedish government official reports, rather than opinions and quotes from dubious websites, as to date very sparse on facts, if any. Look forward to your posting of in context empirical outcomes of your efforts and to re-emphasise, not your opinions.

Of all reports, the ones I would put least credence by are "government" reports. Most, if not all politicians lie, ergo, government reports are likely to be biased to favour the government.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Christianity and Judaism both have the same verses as Islam regarding killing those who change faith.

 

In the US, 21% of Muslims are in an interfaith relationship, a much higher percentage than Hindus, your assertion that Muslims cannot or do not marry into other faiths is nothing but a myth in the Western world and it would seem that the "integration problem" is actually more prevalent among Hindus, but I doubt that fact suits your agenda, does it?

 

 

21% of Muslims are in an interfaith relationship,

That is meaningless unless you give the gender of the relationships. It has always ( far as I know ) been acceptable for Muslim men to marry women of a different faith providing the children are brought up Muslim. 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

OK, this is found in all three books, here taken from the Bible:

 

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

I don't get the relevance. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same deity. The passage refers to idolatory, which is not an issue at present.

[simple1]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of all reports, the ones I would put least credence by are "government" reports. Most, if not all politicians lie, ergo, government reports are likely to be biased to favour the government.

Yeah that would be correct, government bureaucrats in Western countries are in collusion in a grand conspiracy with politicians. Right of centre  sources have more credence...Zzzzz...

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, simple1 said:

Yeah that would be correct, government bureaucrats in Western countries are in collusion in a grand conspiracy with politicians. Right of centre  sources have more credence...Zzzzz...

Right of centre  sources have more credence

Please stop implying I meant that. You are making it up for your own reasons.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Right of centre  sources have more credence

Please stop implying I meant that. You are making it up for your own reasons.

So which sources do you prefer for info; examples?

[LammyTS1]

I also lived in N. Iraq, but we are straying off topic.  
 
Some groups are going to be more adept at resettlement and less troublesome, but it requires planning, preparation and direction on the part of the country.  
 
One of the best ways to integrate people is to put them in school or put them to work.   Public schools exist in part to teach people to be good citizens.   Work gives people exposure to the dominant culture and how it functions in a day-to-day fashion.
 
My point is that people cannot be allowed to stagnate in places that are similar to ghettos.  

This is true, although integration is difficult if immigrant children are being sent to Muslim schools in Sweden.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/705985/Outrage-leading-Muslim-school-Sweden-segregates-boys-girls-PE/amp?client=safari


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Scott]

Countries need to be proactive in resettling people, and that may include dictating about things such as learning the language, etc..   Even if they are allowed to go to an Islamic school, the curriculum needs to be under the direction of the state to insure that everything is being done to promote integration.   If people who are citizens wish to send their children, that is one thing, but while under asylum claim or receiving benefits, they might want to demand a path toward integration.  

[Shawn0000]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

21% of Muslims are in an interfaith relationship,

That is meaningless unless you give the gender of the relationships. It has always ( far as I know ) been acceptable for Muslim men to marry women of a different faith providing the children are brought up Muslim. 

 

It is acceptable for an Imam to marry a Muslim man to a woman of another religion as long as she promises to convert soon, the same rule as Catholic priests have.  However, the stat is not about marriages but relationships, many are not married as they cannot get an Imam to marry them and the only way they could marry would be in a registry, many instead choose to remain in partnership long term, and they are men and women Muslims, I am sure you will not be surprised to learn that many American Muslims do not care about Sharia law and choose to "live in sin" just like Christians and every other faith are doing these days in America.

 

Anyway, it is not meaningless as it was only intended to serve to rubbish this inference that interfaith relationships are a measure of integration with the belief that Muslims integrate less than other faiths, as the reality is they integrate in this way more than other faiths who are not being targeted for this criticism by increasingly desperate Islamophobes.

[dick dasterdly]

I haven't read all the posts, but the OP stated:-

 

" Officers in the city of Malmö have struggled to cope with a surge of serious crimes including dozens of attempted murders, beatings, rapes and other offences – and have now been forced to admit: “We cannot do it on our own”. "  Hence the plea for "locals to come forward" to help them catch those responsible.

 

Surely the most important question to be answered is what has caused this "surge of serious crimes"?

 

The people in the area must have a good idea as to why this is happening.  Has anyone asked those who have lived in the area for many years?

[Shawn0000]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I haven't read all the posts, but the OP stated:-

 

" Officers in the city of Malmö have struggled to cope with a surge of serious crimes including dozens of attempted murders, beatings, rapes and other offences – and have now been forced to admit: “We cannot do it on our own”. "  Hence the plea for "locals to come forward" to help them catch those responsible.

 

Surely the most important question to be answered is what has caused this "surge of serious crimes"?

 

The people in the area must have a good idea as to why this is happening.  Has anyone asked those who have lived in the area for many years?

 

Yes, of course people have asked the people who live there, the response is unanimous, the majority of problems are the result of people unhappy with social housing standards, outside toilets and showers shared between large groups of people.  But there is more than one issue here that is being purposely blended together in attempt to vilify immigrants, there is the social condition problem, there is a gang problem, and there is a white supremacy problem.

 

The people they want to come forward are school friends of the murdered Muslim child, they have had one white supremacist serial killer and the local fear they have another, immigrants are afraid as it is them who have been targeted but here we see the usual fools jumping to the conclusion that a change in crime stats must mean immigrants are importing crime, even some who are aware that immigrants have been the victim of murder going as far as to victim blame, make up stories about the victim being a gangster and excusing Swedes for murdering a child due to the pressure of immigration.  

[Rob13]

9 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

the majority of problems are the result of people unhappy with social housing standards, outside toilets and showers shared between large groups of people

So the  problems aren't so much an Islam problem as a problem resulting  from people in desperate situations being cooped in unhygienic conditions like livestock. Who would have guessed? 

[Flustered]

And it just gets worse for Sweden

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/21/europe/sweden-stockholm-riots/

[dick dasterdly]

20 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Yes, of course people have asked the people who live there, the response is unanimous, the majority of problems are the result of people unhappy with social housing standards, outside toilets and showers shared between large groups of people.  But there is more than one issue here that is being purposely blended together in attempt to vilify immigrants, there is the social condition problem, there is a gang problem, and there is a white supremacy problem.

 

The people they want to come forward are school friends of the murdered Muslim child, they have had one white supremacist serial killer and the local fear they have another, immigrants are afraid as it is them who have been targeted but here we see the usual fools jumping to the conclusion that a change in crime stats must mean immigrants are importing crime, even some who are aware that immigrants have been the victim of murder going as far as to victim blame, make up stories about the victim being a gangster and excusing Swedes for murdering a child due to the pressure of immigration.  

Have to admit that I'm shocked to hear that Swedes in the area (as opposed to recent immigrants) have "outside toilets and showers shared between large groups of people" !

 

It reminds me of my grandparents who lived in the East End of London and had an outside toilet and no bathroom , so washed themselves in the kitchen sink - but that was about four decades ago, before the area was demolished and they were moved into a flat with all mod-cons.

 

Swedes are living in similar conditions decades later???

[Shawn0000]

47 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Have to admit that I'm shocked to hear that Swedes in the area (as opposed to recent immigrants) have "outside toilets and showers shared between large groups of people" !

 

It reminds me of my grandparents who lived in the East End of London and had an outside toilet and no bathroom , so washed themselves in the kitchen sink - but that was about four decades ago, before the area was demolished and they were moved into a flat with all mod-cons.

 

Swedes are living in similar conditions decades later???

 

It is a temporary solution to the growing need for social housing that has been left unaddressed for 20 odd years, they've only been building high end properties and now the prices have gone up steeply, followed by rental prices, leaving a lot of people in need of social housing, they've thrown up temporary buildings, the type you might see used for miners, and they have porta-loos and porta-showers, and besides the fact that it is minus 20 degrees out there, there are also nowhere near enough of them!  People are a bit pissed off, actually very, to the point of rioting. 

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Scott said:

Countries need to be proactive in resettling people, and that may include dictate about things such as learning the language, etc..   Even if they are allowed to go to an Islamic school, the curriculum needs to be under the direction of the state to insure that everything is being done to promote integration.   If people who are citizens wish to send their children, that is one thing, but while under asylum claim or receiving benefits, they might want to demand a path toward integration.  

 

Don't know about Sweden, but policies in the UK make it very easy to set up segregated Islamic schools with specialist curriculums. There have also been some 'trojan horse' actions by leading muslim community figures in areas with high muslim concentration, where they have taken over the board of governors, and tried to drive the (white) head teacher out, in order to introduce a Muslim-based curriculum. There is one allegedly going on at a school in Oldham, northern England at the moment.

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Scott said:

Countries need to be proactive in resettling people, and that may include dictate about things such as learning the language, etc..   Even if they are allowed to go to an Islamic school, the curriculum needs to be under the direction of the state to insure that everything is being done to promote integration.   If people who are citizens wish to send their children, that is one thing, but while under asylum claim or receiving benefits, they might want to demand a path toward integration.  

The school referred to in Stockholm does follow the educational requirements set out by Swedish government, but with one hour a week for Islamic studies.

[Flustered]

45 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Don't know about Sweden, but policies in the UK make it very easy to set up segregated Islamic schools with specialist curriculums. There have also been some 'trojan horse' actions by leading muslim community figures in areas with high muslim concentration, where they have taken over the board of governors, and tried to drive the (white) head teacher out, in order to introduce a Muslim-based curriculum. There is one allegedly going on at a school in Oldham, northern England at the moment.

I am sure that Sweden is no different from the UK when it comes to this.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/19/second-islamist-trojan-horse-scandal-feared-oldham-headteacher/

 

Sweden is probably worse as it is a smaller country with a higher percentage of immigrants centred in a few places.