No renegotiation on Brexit deal if parliament rejects it - minister

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, jpinx said:

May has held fast to her policy and Westminster needs to accept it or risk the wrath of the people they are meant to be representing.  Obstructionism is a short step from betrayal.

 

That well worn "wrath of the people" - well they might just get the wrath of the 48% who voted who wanted to remain; or the considerable number who couldn't be bothered to vote and now might realize that they should've; or some who voted to leave and might now change their minds when they realize what their gonna get.

 

It looks more and more like neither the EU or the Tory government have or had the slightest intentions to negotiate from their positions. One won't move on rights to free movement and the other won't budge on "our way or the highway". Against that intransigent likelihood, then May has no option but to act as she's doing. Juncke looked very happy when he said "out means out" as the UK was the biggest block to their federal socialist EU dream.

 

 

[SheungWan]

15 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

What point am I missing when I can give countless links where EU leaders have stated the UK will and should be punished. the UK tried and tried to make a deal and were shown the door.  A price to pay as you say. What if the UK says we don't want anything from the EU, they still have to pay. There are countless links and not one from the Express , Mail or Telegraph. So who is missing the point!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/25/uk-should-be-punished-if-it-leaves-european-union-to-deter-other-exits

 

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/national/14275592.Foreign_Secretary_warns_that_EU_will_punish_Britain_for_leaving/

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/pipe/news/uk/brexit-could-raise-terror-threat-and-air-fares-travel-experts/

 

http://www.infostormer.com/calais-mayor-wants-to-punish-uk-for-leaving-eu-by-forcing-third-world-migrants-on-them/

 

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/british-bracing-for-world-economy-to-punish-uk-for-leaving-eu/

 

Stunning top class research there. Step up the Bolton News and the Aberdeen Evening Express, leading international journals. And what have we got here in the two professorial links provided above? Exactly the same article!

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, SheungWan said:

 

Stunning top class research there. Step up the Bolton News and the Aberdeen Evening Express, leading international journals. And what have we got here in the two professorial links provided above? Exactly the same article!

It was meant to be sarcastic. Even these papers report the fact the EU will punish the UK. Nobody is disputing it except a few posters who well talk tosh. Now I could have put the Mail, Express and Telegraph like I said but again some posters would have criticized.

There was even a guardian link. Are you going to say that International papers have not written that the EU will punish the UK? I will be waiting.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

You have a totally incorrect view.

 

Nobody wants a recession, or a bad Brexit deal, or harm to the UK economy in any way. Why would anyone want that? Schadenfreude? Ridiculous.

 

However, many, like me, do not trust the Con government to deliver an optimum deal; one that would benefit, or at least do least harm to the maximum number of people.

 

As it stands, parliament will probably be given the choice of a bad Brexit or a cliff edge. There was nothing wrong with giving parliament the right to send the negotiators back to the table.

 

Personally, I forecast a deal which will be good for big business and stockholders but damaging for the average man?

Others have pointed out why many (mainly politicians and big business) are hoping for a bad deal that can then be 're-negotiated'  for slightly better terms - that (magically) suits their interests...

 

Of course, the EU are also keen on a clause that provides for re-negotiation if the final deal is poor for the UK - as it substantially weakens the UK's negotiating power, bearing in mind a large majority of MPs support 'remain'.

 

The best/only chance of negotiating a reasonable deal is for the EU to know that a bad deal would result in 'no deal - WTO rules apply'.

 

I agree though, that any eventual deal will be good for MPs, big business and stockholders.  It will be interesting to see if the UK government is worried enough (following the brexit and Trump votes) to decide that they also need to start taking into consideration 'the average voter' - an entity with which they have completely lost touch.

[Laughing Gravy]

13 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Stunning top class research there. Step up the Bolton News and the Aberdeen Evening Express, leading international journals. And what have we got here in the two professorial links provided above? Exactly the same article!

Maybe Bolton and Aberdeen were not so stupid after all. Every single major newspaper in the UK has said the same. Hilarious.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4690321.ece

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38658998

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/696957/Brexit-negotiations-Britain-EU-survey-referendum-European-countries-punish-UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/britain-will-cut-taxes-take-eu-tries-punish-uk-brexit-suggests/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-eu-punish-uk-prevent-break-up-a7463081.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-vows-eu-tries-punish-9640618

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

What point am I missing when I can give countless links where EU leaders have stated the UK will and should be punished. the UK tried and tried to make a deal and were shown the door.  A price to pay as you say. What if the UK says we don't want anything from the EU, they still have to pay. There are countless links and not one from the Express , Mail or Telegraph. So who is missing the point!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/25/uk-should-be-punished-if-it-leaves-european-union-to-deter-other-exits

 

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/national/14275592.Foreign_Secretary_warns_that_EU_will_punish_Britain_for_leaving/

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/pipe/news/uk/brexit-could-raise-terror-threat-and-air-fares-travel-experts/

 

http://www.infostormer.com/calais-mayor-wants-to-punish-uk-for-leaving-eu-by-forcing-third-world-migrants-on-them/

 

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/british-bracing-for-world-economy-to-punish-uk-for-leaving-eu/

The point you are missing is as stated in Kenneth Clarke's recent speech in the Commons. While many of us wish for a positive outcome we fear for the worse. At no time have I said or indeed do I know of any in the remain camp who hope it is going to end in disaster. Contrast that with many Brexiters who hope that when the UK withdraws from the EU they hope the EU will collapse into chaos as if that will benefit the UK. 

[dick dasterdly]

32 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Maybe Bolton and Aberdeen were not so stupid after all. Every single major newspaper in the UK has said the same. Hilarious.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4690321.ece

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38658998

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/696957/Brexit-negotiations-Britain-EU-survey-referendum-European-countries-punish-UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/britain-will-cut-taxes-take-eu-tries-punish-uk-brexit-suggests/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-eu-punish-uk-prevent-break-up-a7463081.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-vows-eu-tries-punish-9640618

Many EU politicians have been saying for a long time that the UK needs to be punished if it leaves the EU.

 

It doesn't much matter as practicalities take over when it comes to 'the crunch'.

 

Unless, of course, UK MP's vote a clause allowing for re-negotiation.  In which case, the EU has every reason to ensure a poor negotiation result for the UK.

[Grouse]

40 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Maybe Bolton and Aberdeen were not so stupid after all. Every single major newspaper in the UK has said the same. Hilarious.

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4690321.ece

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38658998

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/696957/Brexit-negotiations-Britain-EU-survey-referendum-European-countries-punish-UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/britain-will-cut-taxes-take-eu-tries-punish-uk-brexit-suggests/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-eu-punish-uk-prevent-break-up-a7463081.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-vows-eu-tries-punish-9640618

Be fair now; these are British politicians saying IF the EU attempts to punish us etc

 

One article is a year old

 

One is our old friend Boris rattling on about punishment beatings

 

Where are the quotes showing EU politicians saying the U.K. Should be punished?

 

Come on Gravy, this is a serious matter 

[dunroaming]

.I can see why May has taken the stance that she has.  If she has to negotiate the terms of the divorce and then go back to parliament for them to send her back to re-negotiate then that makes her position very much weaker. I get that totally.  As it is she wants a take it or there is no deal at all.

 

What should happen (in my opinion) is that the targets are agreed by parliament and the government and then the government go into negotiations with the full backing of parliament.  The problem at the moment is "Can we trust May to be capable of getting the best deals for the people of the UK and importantly what are  those deals?" 

 

I think it is pretty much accepted that the main challenge for the government is to achieve more control over borders while agreeing favourable trade deals with the EU. Also reassurance that all EU member citizens living in the UK now can remain on the same terms as Brits living in other EU countries.

 

 

[Retiredandhappyhere]

9 hours ago, Gary A said:

I'm not a UK citizen but looking at it from the EU side, The UK needs to be punished to prevent other countries from jumping off the sinking EU ship. Those who think that the UK can negotiate a better exit deal are simply not thinking logically.

We do not expect a better deal being outside the EU than in it, but we do expect the result of negotiations to be reasonably fair to both sides.  Talk of "punishment" as if we are naughty children is just that ...childish.  The elections this year in Germany and particularly in France could produce some unexpected results which could shake the EU to its core.  Marine Le Pen seems to be doing well in the polls just now and she wants to exit the Euro at least and Angela Merkel is losing ground in the popularity stakes there.  Ordinary voters have gained strength and some  hope from the Brexit and USA surprise results and  they are beginning to exercise their new found power.  The leaders of the EU countries will ignore that at their peril.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

We do not expect a better deal being outside the EU than in it, but we do expect the result of negotiations to be reasonably fair to both sides.  Talk of "punishment" as if we are naughty children is just that ...childish.  The elections this year in Germany and particularly in France could produce some unexpected results which could shake the EU to its core.  Marine Le Pen seems to be doing well in the polls just now and she wants to exit the Euro at least and Angela Merkel is losing ground in the popularity stakes there.  Ordinary voters have gained strength and some  hope from the Brexit and USA surprise results and  they are beginning to exercise their new found power.  The leaders of the EU countries will ignore that at their peril.

Who exactly is threatening whom?

[dunroaming]

Am I the only one who finds the left wing/right wing descriptions of posters that are bandied about decidedly odd?  Listening to the various Brexiteers and Remainers that are being canvassed throughout the country on news channels and in the press, the remainers seem anything but left wing.  On the contrary most of the remainers seem to be in the Tory strongholds in the south east and most of the Brexiteers in the working class towns and cities further north.  I find it hard to believe that those from the working class towns are right wing Conservatives just as I find it hard to believe that the leafy suburbs  of Surrey and Sussex are full of Labour voting lefties.

 

Maybe we should try just saying Brexiteers and remainers and leave the leftie/right wing out of it.  Apart from anything else it is often completely wrong.

[dunroaming]

13 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

We do not expect a better deal being outside the EU than in it, but we do expect the result of negotiations to be reasonably fair to both sides.  Talk of "punishment" as if we are naughty children is just that ...childish.  The elections this year in Germany and particularly in France could produce some unexpected results which could shake the EU to its core.  Marine Le Pen seems to be doing well in the polls just now and she wants to exit the Euro at least and Angela Merkel is losing ground in the popularity stakes there.  Ordinary voters have gained strength and some  hope from the Brexit and USA surprise results and  they are beginning to exercise their new found power.  The leaders of the EU countries will ignore that at their peril.

Certainly strange times all round.  Clearly the deal we will be offered by the EU will be way below the options we would have staying in but that is totally understandable.  It could be though that if the political scene in Europe changes as much as it could then the EU may collapse altogether.  In that case there will be no concessions as there will be no EU.  At that point the UK would be considerably better off and in a good position and a strong European presence.

 

However it could go the other way and then it may get a bit tricky.  In the meantime the world is experiencing very worrying instabilities thanks to the USA, Russia and China.  Those boys make terrorism look like mere irritations.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

Be fair now; these are British politicians saying IF the EU attempts to punish us etc

 

One article is a year old

 

One is our old friend Boris rattling on about punishment beatings

 

Where are the quotes showing EU politicians saying the U.K. Should be punished?

 

Come on Gravy, this is a serious matter 

Regardless if it was a year old, it was said. Yes Johnson said it but it was reported in many newspapers. Here are some below that show that some ministers from the EU want the UK punished. I am sure you will find a way to spin it, that these are not credible, is not relevant now or simply it was taken out of context. You wanted serious so there it is. There are more if you research it. Your point was that no minister from the  EU said Britain should be punished. Are you going to admit it Grouse that you were wrong on this matter?

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756140/Britain-Brexit-bill-billions-leave-EU-france  (This article is mentioned in other media outlets)

 

http://marketbusinessnews.com/brexit-must-punished-eu-goes-drain/143090

"Brexit must be punished, otherwise the EU will go down the drain, says Sigmar Gabriel, Germany’s Economy Minister"

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-warns-may-over-trump-m29hkqxfr

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Regardless if it was a year old, it was said. Yes Johnson said it but it was reported in many newspapers. Here are some below that show that some ministers from the EU want the UK punished. I am sure you will find a way to spin it, that these are not credible, is not relevant now or simply it was taken out of context. You wanted serious so there it is. There are more if you research it. Your point was that no minister from the  EU said Britain should be punished. Are you going to admit it Grouse that you were wrong on this matter?

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756140/Britain-Brexit-bill-billions-leave-EU-france  (This article is mentioned in other media outlets)

 

http://marketbusinessnews.com/brexit-must-punished-eu-goes-drain/143090

"Brexit must be punished, otherwise the EU will go down the drain, says Sigmar Gabriel, Germany’s Economy Minister"

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-warns-may-over-trump-m29hkqxfr

 

 

 

 

The times is referring to the UK doing a deal with Trump (not allowed while still in the EU)

 

Market Business News is interpreting Gabriel's statement. He did not use the word punishment

 

The Express quotes some French minister as saying that if we get a better deal than members it would NOT be a punishment.

 

So go on then, one out of three ?

[Gary A]

What kind of deal is this?

 

Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier set to demand UK pays £48bn EU divorce bill

[jpinx]

31 minutes ago, Gary A said:

What kind of deal is this?

 

Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier set to demand UK pays £48bn EU divorce bill

"No Deal" sounds better and better :)   What the EU needs to understand is that "No Deal" means ALL payments stop NOW.  No more paying into EU schemes up to 2020 etc etc.  Barnier is creating a deal-breaker long before he even sits down at the negotiating table.  What a jerk ......

[7by7]

The UK want to negotiate a deal with the EU, then have that deal approved by Parliament. Fair enough; I have always said that should be the case.

 

The crunch is what happens if Parliament don't approve the deal.

 

Will the EU agree to further negotiations? They could easily simply say "These are our agreed terms; take it or leave it."

 

What about the other side? Will any deal agreed by the EU negotiators have to be approved, and if so by whom?

 

The European parliament?

 

The Council of Ministers?

 

The EU heads of state?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

1 hour ago, Gary A said:

What kind of deal is this?

 

Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier set to demand UK pays £48bn EU divorce bill

"No Deal" sounds better and better :)   What the EU needs to understand is that "No Deal" means ALL payments stop NOW.  No more paying into EU schemes up to 2020 etc etc.  Barnier is creating a deal-breaker long before he even sits down at the negotiating table.  What a jerk ......

Edited 1 hour ago by jpinx

 

At least their dreaming is getting a bit more sober. Wasn't it 60b last week?

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The UK want to negotiate a deal with the EU, then have that deal approved by Parliament. Fair enough; I have always said that should be the case.

 

The crunch is what happens if Parliament don't approve the deal.

 

Will the EU agree to further negotiations? They could easily simply say "These are our agreed terms; take it or leave it."

 

What about the other side? Will any deal agreed by the EU negotiators have to be approved, and if so by whom?

 

The European parliament?

 

The Council of Ministers?

 

The EU heads of state?

Did you not say previously  that the deal has to be approved by the EU's members?  The question is whether the EU will let members see what's on the table all through the negotiating process, or will they be presented with the final deal to have a simple yes/no vote?

 

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

At least their dreaming is getting a bit more sober. Wasn't it 60b last week?

At 10Bn less per week, after 2 years they'll be paying the UK a kings ransom to get them out :)

[7by7]

52 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Did you not say previously  that the deal has to be approved by the EU's members?

Probably, but whether I phrased it as a question or a statement, I cannot recall.

 

However, unless the EU negotiator are given unlimited powers by the EU's democratic institutions, probably the heads of state, which is highly unlikely in my opinion, then any deal reached must surely have to be approved by one of the institutions mentioned.

56 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The question is whether the EU will let members see what's on the table all through the negotiating process, or will they be presented with the final deal to have a simple yes/no vote?

I suspect that, as with the UK side, it is more likely to be the latter.

 

Each side will, of course, have two sets of proposals; those it wants, and those it will accept. Each side will be attempting to achieve more of the first, fewer of the latter. Once the negotiators have reached an agreement, that is the time to refer back for the approval of their political masters. 

 

If every time one side came up with a proposal the other had to refer back to it's masters, then the negotiations would never finish!

[jpinx]

58 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Probably, but whether I phrased it as a question or a statement, I cannot recall.

 

However, unless the EU negotiator are given unlimited powers by the EU's democratic institutions, probably the heads of state, which is highly unlikely in my opinion, then any deal reached must surely have to be approved by one of the institutions mentioned.

I suspect that, as with the UK side, it is more likely to be the latter.

 

Each side will, of course, have two sets of proposals; those it wants, and those it will accept. Each side will be attempting to achieve more of the first, fewer of the latter. Once the negotiators have reached an agreement, that is the time to refer back for the approval of their political masters. 

 

If every time one side came up with a proposal the other had to refer back to it's masters, then the negotiations would never finish!

I brought that up a few days ago -- the negotiations will produce a series of options to choose from.  Westminster will get to debate more of this or less of that, but not both, depending on how the optional terms are written.  It's standard negotiating practice, especially when the negotiator is not going to be the signatory.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, jpinx said:

"No Deal" sounds better and better :)   What the EU needs to understand is that "No Deal" means ALL payments stop NOW.  No more paying into EU schemes up to 2020 etc etc.  Barnier is creating a deal-breaker long before he even sits down at the negotiating table.  What a jerk ......

There are a number of guys in Thailand who are on the run from failure to pay divorce maintenance and they would be just the sort of guy to push the no deal/no payments formula.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

There are a number of guys in Thailand who are on the run from failure to pay divorce maintenance and they would be just the sort of guy to push the no deal/no payments formula.

 

So you're equating an attempt by the EU to rip off the UK for a huge amount of money in return for letting us out of their clutches, with people avoiding paying divorce maintenance. I guess some people will say/write anything to come across as witty.

[SheungWan]

9 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

So you're equating an attempt by the EU to rip off the UK for a huge amount of money in return for letting us out of their clutches, with people avoiding paying divorce maintenance. I guess some people will say/write anything to come across as witty.

 

Recommended if one is a bit light on the research front then throw in a word like 'huge' and wing it from there.

[chiang mai]

I've not paid much attention at all to Brexit in recent times so I honestly don't know what the state of play is. But I do read reports frequently that point to the country's financial future not looking that great, the cost of borrowings (deficit/debt) and banks planning to move out seem to be the biggees.

 

So I was just wondering if everyone was still feeling comfortable that the right decision has been made and whether it is all worth it given the negative economic backdrop? Clearly many months ago certain people thought so, I wonder now if any have changed or tempered their views?

 

BTW what happened to that Brexit stalwart Sgt. Rock, I miss his Deutche Bank rants, I see their stock is doing stellar things these days, does that mean they're not going away!

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/10/deutsche-bank-strategist-becomes-biggest-bull-on-wall-street.html

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Recommended if one is a bit light on the research front then throw in a word like 'huge' and wing it from there.

Fortunately some of us actually do enough research to see through your heavily biased commentary on the "facts"

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

Fortunately some of us actually do enough research to see through your heavily biased commentary on the "facts"

I know. Some of you are in the club which think that an org like the ONS (Organisation of National Statistics) is to be bad-mouthed if it dares contradict some of the fairy tales which a few of the hard line brexiteers grimly hold on to.

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I know. Some of you are in the club which think that an org like the ONS (Organisation of National Statistics) is to be bad-mouthed if it dares contradict some of the fairy tales which a few of the hard line brexiteers grimly hold on to.

 

 

 

A Remoaner talking about Fairy Tales.................................. now. THAT is amusing........................

[SheungWan]

53 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

A Remoaner talking about Fairy Tales.................................. now. THAT is amusing........................

So maybe you can amuse us with what figures you have for the percentage of UK exports going to the EU and the percentage of EU exports going to the UK. This was where the dispute de jour kicked off. We will endeavor not to giggle.