Asian Indians in Thailand as permanent residents

[chrisandsu]

8 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

I worked for Morgan Stanley and for Goldman Sachs in the mid 90's.  I certainly don't view investment bankers or realtors as parasites.  They are some of the smartest people you'll meet and they make a lot of money for their clients.  The fact they also get paid a lot is how capitalism works.  If I turned 100 million into 200 million for you, I would expect at least 10 million for my efforts.

I think you'll find that Thais understand the difference between smart, well educated, wealthy Indians and the ones selling nuts and loan sharking.   
 

You obviously don't see the link . You may not think bankers and realtors and lawyers are parasites but the vast majority of the world do .Small time loan sharks are seen in the same light as a ponzi banker . People working for years just to pay interest on a loan is nothing short of illegal in my book .but when you get to write the rules we all have to play by people get disgusted by the greed . Admired no . Looked up to no . 

Edited February 15, 2017 by chrisandsu

[overherebc]

On 13/02/2017 at 5:38 PM, seancbk said:

 

At what point does a person who's family emigrated from somewhere else cease to be 'from' there?

I know Thai Chinese people who can trace their great grandparents back to places in China, but the family adopted a Thai name and married into Thai families.   The grandparents were 100% Chinese, the next generation half Chinese / half Thai, then married into other Chinese families or perhaps Thai Chinese so the next generation are still 50% or more Chinese.  

Same can be said for the Indians, they adopted Thai names but they've kept their Indian bloodlines pretty pure.  Relatively few Indian families have diluted significantly with Thai blood, if anything it's more likely to be Thai Chinese they've married with.

The fact is aside from a Thai name, Thai language ability and having lived here for generations, they are still ethnically Chinese or Indian.

If a Westerner has a half Thai half Western child, what is the chance that kid marries a Western woman or a Thai Chinese woman or a Thai Indian.   How long before little Luk Krueng Johnny Smith's kids and grandkids are no longer 50% Caucasian and can be thought of as Thai?    

 

Many people in UK nowadays who claim 'British through and through' would probably get a bit of a shock if they did a DNA ancestry check.

Might even be a bit of Genghis Khan in there.

Signed

Genghis McKhan.

Gallowgate

Glasgow.

Edited February 15, 2017 by overherebc

[roo860]

The Jaspal clothing company is Sikh owned. Started around 1972

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[seancbk]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

 

Many people in UK nowadays who claim 'British through and through' would probably get a bit of a shock if they did a DNA ancestry check.

Might even be a bit of Genghis Khan in there.

Signed

Genghis McKhan.

Gallowgate

Glasgow.

 

This is a great video 
 

 

[Naam]

3 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

You may not think bankers and realtors and lawyers are parasites but the vast majority of the world do

the vast majority of the world is poor and envy people who have above average disposable money. as simple as that.

[seancbk]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

3 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

You may not think bankers and realtors and lawyers are parasites but the vast majority of the world do

the vast majority of the world is poor and envy people who have above average disposable money. as simple as that.

 

A large proportion of the people who say bad things about rich people are themselves quite rich when compared to the vast majority of the world.    

But they are also typically carrying large amounts of personal debt because although they are comparatively wealthy, they cannot resist the urge to spend more than they earn and finance unnecessary purchases with debt.

It is scary how much credit card debt most normal middle class people have.   That is usually why they are middle class but 'poor'.

The really poor people of the world look to the ones they see with money and aspire to be there too, there is very little jealousy when a really poor person looks at someone who is wealthy.  

The jealousy comes when they get to the middle classes and despite a huge increase in their wealth, they start overspending and buying bigger TVs, new phones, clothes they don't need etc all on their new credit cards.  Then they end up trying to look like they are not poor when in fact they are worse off than when they lived in a shack with no TV, no phone, but with no crushing debt.


In 2000 I made the decision to get out of debt.  I was hit with a large tax bill (a company I was a director/shareholder in had just listed on Nasdaq at a valuation of 750 million US$) and I had a large amount of personal debt built up since my first credit card at about 20 years of ago.   I paid my tax bill and paid off the approx 2 million THB of credit card debt I had.     Since then I've not had a credit card.  I have a visa debit card for online purchases and everything else I buy is paid for in cash.    

People in debt because of spending too much on credit don't get any sympathy from me.  
 

[The Dancer]

16 hours ago, seancbk said:

I think you'll find that Thais understand the difference between smart, well educated, wealthy Indians and the ones selling nuts and loan sharking.  

True. But I'll put in a word for the money lenders.

 

There's one pretty often at the end of my soi quietly sitting on his bike hanging with the motosai guys. Obviously, they do business with him and there seem to be no problems, not even loud words let alone fights. I asked a couple of the motosai guys about him. They said he lends them money and speaks perfect Thai. That's it. No rant about him extorting away their hard-earned cash or anything else.

 

I guess loans are just another necessity for low-income Thais living day to day. And this particular Indian community seems to have cornered the market on providing the service. If it wasn't them then it would have been some other group. So I doubt Thais hold it against Indians for money-lending and I say money-lending rather than loan-sharking because if their rates were extortionate, then Thais would go somewhere else. There are lots of people capable of giving microloans.

 

But, of course, people on general principle hate banks and such who have them by their balls and require them to part with an amount at the beginning of every month which they would rather spend on a happy ending.

Edited February 15, 2017 by The Dancer

[nisakiman]

35 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

A large proportion of the people who say bad things about rich people are themselves quite rich when compared to the vast majority of the world.    

But they are also typically carrying large amounts of personal debt because although they are comparatively wealthy, they cannot resist the urge to spend more than they earn and finance unnecessary purchases with debt.

It is scary how much credit card debt most normal middle class people have.   That is usually why they are middle class but 'poor'.

The really poor people of the world look to the ones they see with money and aspire to be there too, there is very little jealousy when a really poor person looks at someone who is wealthy.  

The jealousy comes when they get to the middle classes and despite a huge increase in their wealth, they start overspending and buying bigger TVs, new phones, clothes they don't need etc all on their new credit cards.  Then they end up trying to look like they are not poor when in fact they are worse off than when they lived in a shack with no TV, no phone, but with no crushing debt.


In 2000 I made the decision to get out of debt.  I was hit with a large tax bill (a company I was a director/shareholder in had just listed on Nasdaq at a valuation of 750 million US$) and I had a large amount of personal debt built up since my first credit card at about 20 years of ago.   I paid my tax bill and paid off the approx 2 million THB of credit card debt I had.     Since then I've not had a credit card.  I have a visa debit card for online purchases and everything else I buy is paid for in cash.    

People in debt because of spending too much on credit don't get any sympathy from me.  
 

The problem with credit cards is that it doesn't feel like you're actually spending money, since the impact of any purchases isn't immediate. It's all too easy to spend what you don't have. When I lived in UK 15 years ago I had enough credit available on my various cards that I could have bought a small house! Scary stuff. When I moved to Greece, like you I paid off and cancelled all my credit cards, and now just use the debit cards I have tied to my bank accounts. So for the past 15 years, I've had no debt. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it, simple as that.  Life is simpler and stress free.

[seancbk]

11 minutes ago, nisakiman said:

The problem with credit cards is that it doesn't feel like you're actually spending money, since the impact of any purchases isn't immediate. It's all too easy to spend what you don't have. When I lived in UK 15 years ago I had enough credit available on my various cards that I could have bought a small house! Scary stuff. When I moved to Greece, like you I paid off and cancelled all my credit cards, and now just use the debit cards I have tied to my bank accounts. So for the past 15 years, I've had no debt. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it, simple as that.  Life is simpler and stress free.

 

I do understand that some people need access to credit sometimes, but so many people get caught in the credit trap (like you and I did before we broke free).   

Schools should really teach better money management skills.  And people really should stop being driven by such rampant consumerism, unless they can actually afford it.

 

[The Dancer]

23 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

I do understand that some people need access to credit sometimes, but so many people get caught in the credit trap (like you and I did before we broke free).   

Schools should really teach better money management skills.  And people really should stop being driven by such rampant consumerism, unless they can actually afford it.

 

Interesting, I grew up fairly poor and without enough creditworthiness to get a card. And I learned to be terrified of debt because there was no way I could pay back much. So, when finally I got an education and a decent job and a card, I always paid it off at the end of the month. I just hated debt. And still do.

 

The CC companies haven't ever got a dime in interest from me. I guess they hate me. But I love them because they give me a free ride till the end of each month.

[seancbk]

14 minutes ago, The Dancer said:

Interesting, I grew up fairly poor and without enough creditworthiness to get a card. And I learned to be terrified of debt because there was no way I could pay back much. So, when finally I got an education and a decent job and a card, I always paid it off at the end of the month. I just hated debt. And still do.

 

The CC companies haven't ever got a dime in interest from me. I guess they hate me. But I love them because they give me a free ride till the end of each month.

 

You are a smart user of credit.   

Pity most people are not (including myself when I was in my 20's and 30's).  

Now I have no debt although I am beginning to look at debt finance for my new business, so far I've not taken any outside finance or sought any debt/equity style deals, but I may do that at some point.    However I will only do it once I'm 100% sure that I can repay it without incurring any penalties etc.

I doubt I'll ever have an actual credit card again.   

 

[The Dancer]

20 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Now I have no debt although I am beginning to look at debt finance for my new business, so far I've not taken any outside finance or sought any debt/equity style deals, but I may do that at some point.    However I will only do it once I'm 100% sure that I can repay it without incurring any penalties etc.

Good luck with your business. To grow a business I guess you just have to take on financing at some point and therefore debt. But that's a good cause. Putting an iPhone 7 on a CC because it's shiny and Somchai's got one is not.

[roo860]

There used to be an Indian guy in Hua Hin, would come around to the roadside food stalls on a Friday collecting money for the bedding he sold on credit.

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[The Dancer]

32 minutes ago, roo860 said:

There used to be an Indian guy in Hua Hin, would come around to the roadside food stalls on a Friday collecting money for the bedding he sold on credit.

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No Big C or bank would extend credit to someone with an address in a slum and a roadside stall for income. The Indian guy is doing this so fair play to him. It's his business model taking the risk. I wouldn't call him a loan shark. 

[roo860]

No Big C or bank would extend credit to someone with an address in a slum and a roadside stall for income. The Indian guy is doing this so fair play to him. It's his business model taking the risk. I wouldn't call him a loan shark. 

I wasn't calling him a loan shark. I thought this topic was about Indians settling in Thailand? Or has it changed to how people use credit cards?

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[overherebc]

To be brutally honest threads like this all seem to be based on the self perceived superiority ill conceived ideas of UK , USA and European white 'christians'.

They have black/brown skin so they must be inferior to us.

I would change the subject of the thread to something on the lines of 'how can Indian people get residency here so easily when it's so difficult for me to get it'.

I'll leave it there.?

PS I don't have a credit card.

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, overherebc said:

To be brutally honest threads like this all seem to be based on the self perceived superiority ill conceived ideas of UK , USA and European white 'christians'.

They have black/brown skin so they must be inferior to us.

I would change the subject of the thread to something on the lines of 'how can Indian people get residency here so easily when it's so difficult for me to get it'.

I'll leave it there.?

PS I don't have a credit card.

But can they? Has anyone provided any evidence that they can other than speculation?

Talking about new people, not historical legacy families that are THAI for a very long time. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Jingthing

[overherebc]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But can they? Has anyone provided any evidence that they can other than speculation?

Talking about new people, not historical legacy families that are THAI for a very long time. 

Obviously they, newly arrived, have to conform to the same rules regulations, as anyone does.

I think the difference is that many Indian families here belong to very long stay groups who are by documentation Thai. If your GGGrandfather and GGGrandmother were granted Thai residency then sons daughters and so on are Thai as well.

Some people just don't see that and assume that if you don't look like their idea of a Thai person then you must have got off the same plane as them and somehow managed to get residency within weeks of arriving.

[Jingthing]

That's my impression too. But many people seem to think differently so I'd like them to back that up with actual facts rather than prejudice. 

 

To add, of course, like any sovereign nation, Thailand certainly has the right to have different rules for different nationalities. We know Thailand treats nations differently for things like entry stamps and tourist visas, but we're talking about residency here. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Jingthing

[overherebc]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's my impression too. But many people seem to think differently so I'd like them to back that up with actual facts rather than prejudice. 

 

To add, of course, like any sovereign nation, Thailand certainly has the right to have different rules for different nationalities. We know Thailand treats nations differently for things like entry stamps and tourist visas, but we're talking about residency here. 

I won't go into nationalities but one contract I worked on not that long ago, in Italy, I had to go to to the airport to meet two technicians who flew in from XXX.

One of them had a huge extra suitcase full of almost every medicine you can imagine, it was like a hand carry MASH.

When I asked why he brought all of it he told me that he knew Italy had no hospitals or medical facilities.

I just said OK fine.

[saakura]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's my impression too. But many people seem to think differently so I'd like them to back that up with actual facts rather than prejudice. 

 

To add, of course, like any sovereign nation, Thailand certainly has the right to have different rules for different nationalities. We know Thailand treats nations differently for things like entry stamps and tourist visas, but we're talking about residency here. 

 Thailand grants previliges such as visa exempt entries, out-in border runs, self declared salary affidavits to use for retirement visa etc to westerners, all of which i beleive are not available for indians, but the Thai authorities are more lenient in granting them permanent residency rights? Does not make sense.

Edited February 15, 2017 by saakura

[overherebc]

10 minutes ago, saakura said:

 Thailand grants previliges such as visa exempt entries, out-in border runs, self declared salary affidavits to use for retirement visa etc to westerners, all of which i beleive are not available for indians, but the Thai authorities are more lenient in granting them permanent residency rights? Does not make sense.

It only makes sense to people who know and make themselves aware of the circumstances. I have no problem staying here because I know how things are.

[The Dancer]

33 minutes ago, overherebc said:

It only makes sense to people who know and make themselves aware of the circumstances. I have no problem staying here because I know how things are.

I speak a bit of Hindi from my days working in Mumbai and used to chat with a couple of nut sellers when they would come by my favorite Suk roadside watering hole before the army got it into their heads to shut all the stalls down. I didn't ask them their visa situation - wouldn't be kosher - but from talking to them it was clear they knew their way around. They weren't afraid of the cops at all, even those rounding up the Africans.

 

Come to think of it the Africans are often targeted but they're still on Suk in numbers. Like overherebc says, it's a matter of knowing how things work in this country. Plus the Indians and Africans have an advantage over us ruggedly individualistic Westerners - they rely on community and connections through the community. Which means what they lack in apparent wealth, they more than compensate with other resources.

Edited February 15, 2017 by The Dancer

[overherebc]

8 minutes ago, The Dancer said:

I speak a bit of Hindi from my days working in Mumbai and used to chat with a couple of nut sellers when they would come by my favorite Suk roadside watering hole before the army got it into their heads to shut all the stalls down. I didn't ask them their visa situation - wouldn't be kosher - but from talking to them it was clear they knew their way around. They weren't afraid of the cops at all, even those rounding up the Africans.

 

Come to think of it the Africans are often targeted but they're still on Suk in numbers. Like overherebc say, it's a matter of knowing how things work in this country. Plus the Indians and Africans have an advantage over us ruggedly, individualistic Westerners - they rely on community and connections through the community. Which means what they lack in apparent wealth, they more than compensate with other resources.

A long time ago in Sconny Botland I can remember Indian families who had an idea I loved. They formed a group and between them they agreed the bottom figure that the family earning the least could put in the pot. When enough was saved it financed a business for the poorest contributor. Then a larger figure was agreed for minimum contribution etc etc. It didn't take that long before every family had a good going business.

Wouldn't be nice if you could find expats out here to follow that system.

Ahh, the dream, the dream.

[chrisandsu]

Where I live the millennials are now looking at 50 year mortgages . I think we can all agree that would make you an indentured servant to the almighty bank ! Does a penniless farmer live any differently working month to month to be house poor / land poor? It's funny how the neo liberals are now bitching about the Chinese coming in and buying everything up ! 

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

But can they? Has anyone provided any evidence that they can other than speculation?

Talking about new people, not historical legacy families that are THAI for a very long time. 

of course there is no evidence for the cracked lukewarm farts pertaining to thousands of nut sellers who are actually loan sharks and allegedly have permanent residence.

 

fact is there are thousands of ethnic Indians having Myanmar citizenship working legally in Thailand possessing the relevant permits based on the "bordering nation" regulation.

 

another fact the fart crackers are unaware of is:

 

Quote

About 65,000 Indian Thais have full Thai citizenship, but around 400,000 persons of Indian origin settled in Thailand mainly in the cities.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_Thailand

 

[The Dancer]

39 minutes ago, Naam said:

About 65,000 Indian Thais have full Thai citizenship, but around 400,000 persons of Indian origin settled in Thailand mainly in the cities.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_Thailand

Normally, I like Wikipedia but when they say " Tamil Nadu is an ancient country" (it isn't, it's a state of India) and "Tamil people came during the Chola period" (which is more than 1000  years ago, before there was a recognizable Siam) I start to think the guy who wrote this particular article got the plot wrong.

 

So here's what I know from talking to local Indians:

(1) The Indian Thais, the rich ones in particular, are Punjabi Sikhs who've been here a few generations.

(2) The nut sellers and money-lenders are mostly from the town of Gorakhpur in the state of UP in India.

They're more recent than the Sikhs but now have a fairly large community settled here.

(3) The Indians shopkeepers in Panthip Plaza are from Myanmar.

 

Anecdotal I know but that's all I got.

[Naam]

7 hours ago, The Dancer said:

Normally, I like Wikipedia but when they say " Tamil Nadu is an ancient country" (it isn't, it's a state of India)

it is a state of India only since partition when the Maharajas were "deposed". and if you read the history of Tamil Nadu the adjective "ancient" does apply. but this is irrelevant as far as the nut selling Indians and their residence permits are concerned.

[Jingthing]

What about the Nepalese tailor touts?

[The Dancer]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

it is a state of India only since partition when the Maharajas were "deposed". and if you read the history of Tamil Nadu the adjective "ancient" does apply. but this is irrelevant as far as the nut selling Indians and their residence permits are concerned.

That's not correct. "Tamil Nadu" came out of the Madras Presidency way after partition. And, of course, "ancient" applies to all of India but then you have to start talking about dynasties (Cholas, Pandyas, Maurayas, etc.), the extents of their respective kingdoms, languages spoken and on and on.

 

So, to say "Tamil Nadu is an ancient country" is nonsensical. And neither is there evidence of "ancient" migration from the south of India to Thailand, not at this end at any rate. Buddhism came by another route.

Edited February 16, 2017 by The Dancer