Spanish schengen visa for Thai spouse with UK citizen

[MaprangHolmes]

On 3/30/2017 at 10:26 AM, edgarfriendly said:

congratulations.

 

my non-married partner is too daunted by the process to try, though she got a uk visa no problem due to our dual-nationality child.

 

does anyone know why spain are so awkward/demanding wrt visas?

If you do apply at BLS they have changed address since the 20th March but never thought it was a good idea to update there web site. Their is nothing to be daunted about the application process, your partner would not really be interviewed at BLS apart from some basic questions. The main problem with Spain is that ask for documents that really have nothing to do with them and nothing to do with the application.

 

Considering the Spanish economy is in a right mess, you would think they would welcome tourists but that is certainly not the case with Spain. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by MaprangHolmes

[thetruth revealer]

On 11.2.2017 at 8:05 AM, theoldgit said:

Your marriage doesn't have to be registered in the UK, if you were legally married in Thailand, then you are legally married anywhere.

 

As your spouse your husband is entitled to free movement within the EU providing he is travelling with you, or joining you there, though those rules obviously are likely to change post Brexit.

 

That said, the Spanish authorities have imposed requirements which seem to contravene the Schengen rules, thus preventing spouses of UK Citizens exercising their current right of free movement.

 

 

Your husband should be obtain a Schengen visa from the Spanish authorities here in Thailand, that visa should be issued free and promptly and without much of the documentation that would normally be required from a Visa National, but it seems they are flouting the rules and will insist that your husband applies as a general tourist, and pays the fees.

 

There are a number of members who have fallen foul of the Spanish flouting of the EU rules, maybe someone will advise how they dealt with it.

 

 

 

..sorry your answer is incorrect regarding " unecessairy "registration at Embassy.the fact that the Marriage in Thailand is recognized in other countries, doesnt mean that you dont have to register it again with your countries authorities, to appear in the system. 

once the spouse of the schengen state  national is officially in the system , they will issue the Schengen visa based on family ties, with a shorter application time ,without any  fee and possibly within 1 day.

Source : Swiss and Italian Embassy

[theoldgit]

@thetruth revealer No, I'm not wrong, though if you can provide the link to the source of your claim or the relevant section of the Schengen Area handbook, rather than just naming two Embassy's, I will gladly correct my statement.

What I can tell you is that my wife has successfully applied for Schengen visas as the spouse of an EU National at two Consulates and has never been asked to supply evidence that we're legally married and thus able to take advantage of the rules allowing free movement, in both cases she supplied nothing more that our Thai marriage certificate.

The fact remain that if you are legally married in Thailand you are legally married anywhere in the world and there is no need for subsequent registrations.
The fact that a few Consulates act outside of the Schengen Area agreement has already been brought into question by the European Commissioners. 

[thetruth revealer]

4 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

@thetruth revealer No, I'm not wrong, though if you can provide the link to the source of your claim or the relevant section of the Schengen Area handbook, rather than just naming two Embassy's, I will gladly correct my statement.

What I can tell you is that my wife has successfully applied for Schengen visas as the spouse of an EU National at two Consulates and has never been asked to supply evidence that we're legally married and thus able to take advantage of the rules allowing free movement, in both cases she supplied nothing more that our Thai marriage certificate.

The fact remain that if you are legally married in Thailand you are legally married anywhere in the world and there is no need for subsequent registrations.
The fact that a few Consulates act outside of the Schengen Area agreement has already been brought into question by the European Commissioners. 

...yes there is exactly need for the subsequent registrations , as mentioned before, to appear in the system of your origins country civil registar for all benefits of said country ,social security etc etc .

...im in the middle of this process right now , and all informations are up to date and obtained from the legal consular officer of both Switzerland and Italy.

...the assumption that the fact of the validity of the marriage in other countries  is equal to appear in the system doesnt make sense isnt it?

...a part of that, its legally required by Swiss and Italian law to report any changes of your civil status  !

The issue is not only Schengen relevant but to fulfill your duty as Citizen and therefore  be covered from your countries protection and civil rights .

[theoldgit]

Still waiting for the link.

 

A number of members have hit this brick wall where the visa sections in some Consulates insist that a Thai marriage is registered in the EU Citizens own country, not only is this not required under international law a number of countries refuse to do so, the UK for instance, citing that as there is no requirement to do so, they don't offer the facility.

 

The instructions in the directive are very clear, and make absoluty no reference to a marriage being registered anywhere other than where the marriage took place.

 

Quote

 

 

 

3.6. Supporting documents

In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the

Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by

presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e.

proving that:

• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;

• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,

proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships …) and his

identity (passport);

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf

 

name="UK in Thailand]

After you get married

Your marriage will be recognised in the UK if:

you follow the correct process according to the law in Thailand

it would be allowed under UK law

You don’t need to register your marriage in the UK.

 

[mgb]

EU law has primacy and the right of free movement is not dependent on any registration in the home country.

From the EU visa handbook part III section 3.7 burden of proof, last sentence:

 

A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the document.
 

[MaprangHolmes]

24 minutes ago, thetruth revealer said:

...yes there is exactly need for the subsequent registrations , as mentioned before, to appear in the system of your origins country civil registar for all benefits of said country ,social security etc etc .

...im in the middle of this process right now , and all informations are up to date and obtained from the legal consular officer of both Switzerland and Italy.

...the assumption that the fact of the validity of the marriage in other countries  is equal to appear in the system doesnt make sense isnt it?

...a part of that, its legally required by Swiss and Italian law to report any changes of your civil status  !

The issue is not only Schengen relevant but to fulfill your duty as Citizen and therefore  be covered from your countries protection and civil rights .

Can you then please advise someone how they would register a marriage in Thailand with the UK Embassy? I truly wish you the best of lucking with trying something that is totally impossible 

[MaprangHolmes]

Just now, mgb said:

EU law has primacy and the right of free movement is not dependent on any registration in the home country.

From the EU visa handbook part III section 3.7 burden of proof, last sentence:

 

A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the document.
 

If you are for example in the UK and want to go to Spain the Spainish consulate will want a translated copy of your marriage certificate which has been notarised by the Thai embassy if in the UK but that is about all they do require certainly the marriage does not have to be registered with the births, deaths & Marriages department in the UK

[thetruth revealer]

...there are other countries than the UK and  everybody who saw my previous posts  would understand the context and that the subsequent registration  is not only relevant for the Schengen visa ,and  might not be required for this but still its a obligation for certain citizens and beneficious for several other reasons.

Sorry maybe it was a bit Off topic.

[Donutz]

TOG, MGB and Holmes are correct. The Schengen Code on Visa (EU regulation 18/2009) and the freedom of movement directive (directive 2004/38), both of which can be via the sticky topic do not mention anything about having to register your marriage in the EU. And the handbook, also cited in the sticky and by MGB right here make that even clear.

 

For a regular short stay visa there is no need for registrating the marriage elsewhere (and you can geta short stay visa as an unmarried couple just fine). For applicatioms under freedom of movement you to have a direct family relation (marriage) -though these rights may also be granted to unmarried couples in a durable relationship-. But all that is requires is a legal and genuine marriage. Obviously sham marriages would be fraud and thus not get you anywhere but into trouble. But a genuine legal married couple? It does not matter if such a legal marriage took place in TH or in the EU or elsewhere. 

 

To the best of my knowledge only Spain insists on the marriage being registrates in the EU but this is false and Spain has been comfronted on this subject by the EU. From what I hear from migration lawyers the Spanish MFA knows better but at embassy level they still apply the rules incorrectly due to Spain still not having bothered to correct the incorrect incooperation of directive 2004/38 into Spanish law.

 

Not entirely seperate from visa applications it is true that some EU countriee require that their citizens make known or register overseas marriages or other such things in regards to maritial status. Thats perfectly fine but it's entirely seperate from a visa application. An embasst cannot demand a marriage to be registrated when applying for a short stay visa and neither when applying for any type of Schengen visa under directive 2004/38.

 

If some embassy does state so they are wrong. And as said I am only aware of Spain doing this.

[Donutz]

16 minutes ago, thetruth revealer said:

...there are other countries than the UK and  everybody who saw my previous posts  would understand the context and that the subsequent registration  is not only relevant for the Schengen visa ,and  might not be required for this but still its a obligation for certain citizens and beneficious for several other reasons.

Sorry maybe it was a bit Off topic.

Fact remains that registrating your marriage in the EU is not in any way relevant  (required) for a Schengen visa. But registration may indeed be required of citizens by national law but that is entirely seperate from visa applications. 

 

I can however imagen that if say a Dutchy married in Thailand, and a week later the Thai spouse applies for a visa that they would plan on registrating the marriage in NL as Dutch law does require. They wouls indicate that they are married but for a visa this status would be irrelevant and it would also not be the job of the visa officer to check if the marriage has been registrated or let such a registration or absense there of play any role in deciding over the visa application. 

The closest relevancy would be assasing the risk of not returning after the vida expires, fearing that the couple (married or not) would be so foolish as to try and disappear into illegality...

 

Edit: worst  case scenario for our Dutch-Tah couple? The visa officer overstepping his boundries and commenting 'hey you have not registrated your marriage yet, dont forget to do so or you may get into trouble with your municipality". But it would be none of the visa officer's business.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Donutz

[Wallet73]

10 days only? Have the Schengen-rules changed? My girlfriend received a 5-year tourist visa for the Schengen-area 2 years ago.

[mgb]

1 hour ago, Donutz said:

 

From what I hear from migration lawyers the Spanish MFA knows better but at embassy level they still apply the rules incorrectly due to Spain still not having bothered to correct the incorrect incooperation of directive 2004/38 into Spanish law.

 

There is no such clause in spanish law. There is only a instruction from the spanish MFA from 2011. Someone posted the leaflet sometime ago.
 

[theoldgit]

...there are other countries than the UK and  everybody who saw my previous posts  would understand the context and that the subsequent registration  is not only relevant for the Schengen visa ,and  might not be required for this but still its a obligation for certain citizens and beneficious for several other reasons. Sorry maybe it was a bit Off topic.

Indeed there are countries other than the UK, but this thread is about the Thai spouse of a UK citizen.   

 

[MaprangHolmes]

In all honesty I think it is about time something is really done about how the Spanish are at best making up their own rules which go against EU law. It is just unfair on people who wish to travel there with their spouse and end up having a load of hassle which in reality should never happen.

[mgb]

File a complaint with the EU commission if the visa application of your wife get denied.
http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/applying-eu-law/make_a_complaint_en.htm

Edited April 3, 2017 by mgb

[andrewfr]

My Thai wife and I have ben married for 26 years, Married in the UK but resident in Thailand, and she has a multiple entry UK visa.  We intend to visit friends in Spain for 5 days, then another 10 days in Italy before returning to Thailand via the UK. She has been turned down twice by the BLS Spanish visa issuing office, depite the fact that she has had several Schengen visas in the past. The first time because she did not have confirmed reservations from all the hotels we will stay at in Italy. The second time because we will spend longer in Italy than in Spain. BLS told her to apply for her Schengen visa from the Italians, even though Spain will be our first point of entry.. She has plenty of money, travelling with me and out two 20+ year old British children, marriage certificate, bank statement, plane tickets in and out, proof of insurance, all hotel reservations, etc. The staff at the BLS office are pleasant enough, in a vacuous way. But seem to have totaly ignored the EU rules for issuing Schengen visas and have completely suspended any traces of common sense.

Reciprocity also does not apply: Citizens of Spain will be granted a visa on arrivel and are permitted to stay in Thailand up to 30 days if entering via aninternational airport

Any idea why the Spanish are so unfriendly?

[Donutz]

4 hours ago, andrewfr said:

My Thai wife and I have ben married for 26 years, Married in the UK but resident in Thailand, and she has a multiple entry UK visa.  We intend to visit friends in Spain for 5 days, then another 10 days in Italy before returning to Thailand via the UK. She has been turned down twice by the BLS Spanish visa issuing office, depite the fact that she has had several Schengen visas in the past. The first time because she did not have confirmed reservations from all the hotels we will stay at in Italy. The second time because we will spend longer in Italy than in Spain. BLS told her to apply for her Schengen visa from the Italians, even though Spain will be our first point of entry.. She has plenty of money, travelling with me and out two 20+ year old British children, marriage certificate, bank statement, plane tickets in and out, proof of insurance, all hotel reservations, etc. The staff at the BLS office are pleasant enough, in a vacuous way. But seem to have totaly ignored the EU rules for issuing Schengen visas and have completely suspended any traces of common sense.

Reciprocity also does not apply: Citizens of Spain will be granted a visa on arrivel and are permitted to stay in Thailand up to 30 days if entering via aninternational airport

Any idea why the Spanish are so unfriendly?

For a  free visa under the expidited 'VIP like' procedure under Freedom of Movement rights (directive 2004/38) there is zero  need to provide information about the accommodation, travel insurance, funds, bookings etc.  

 

If the optional service provider (BPS) has a proper checklist for family members of EU/EEA nationals  they wouldn't be asking for this. Spain remains responsible for proper instructions. The external party has zero say about accepting an application or not. They can warn that they think the application is incomplete but they are a glorified post office and must forward the application if the applicant wishes to do so. Ofcourse obviously  the risk of a refusal remains yours. 

 

The Spaniards should accept a written statement by you  (EU national) that you and the Thai family member are traveling together.  Add a flight  reservation even though this cannot be demanded. Add ID of the both of you and evidence of a legal and genuine family relation. That and the form (skipping the questions marked with *) and 1-2 passport photos is all Spain technically can ask. They wouldn't know you are also heading to Italy. But Spain is a notorious trouble maker who whipped it's behind with EU legislation. If possible comply with silly demands if it's not too much to ask.

 

You can share your experience with EU home affairs in Brussels:

JUST-CITIZENSHIP {at} ec.europa.eu

 

But yes, if Italy is your main destination yoy should apply there. See the sticky topic. But as said, since the EU/EEA family member application does not request evidence of your travel plan... there is no way Spain could know that you will spent the most time in Italy.

 

Please do contact Brussels or Solvit. The only chance we ever see change is if people bring it up with the EU so it can set Spain straight!!

[beau thai]

Anyone have recent experience of applying for a tourist visa for a Thai to visit Spain for 30 days, or similar.

I have the impression, perhaps wrongly, that Spain has a uniquely difficult and arbitrary Schengen process, so any pointers or just success stories would be reassuring. Thanks

[macahoom]

 

12 hours ago, beau thai said:

Anyone have recent experience of applying for a tourist visa for a Thai to visit Spain for 30 days, or similar.

I have the impression, perhaps wrongly, that Spain has a uniquely difficult and arbitrary Schengen process, so any pointers or just success stories would be reassuring. Thanks

 

You asked for success stories:

 

My Thai girlfriend has been granted Schengen visas (for Spain) three times in the last 12 years, the most recent being last year. I am a UK citizen.

[beau thai]

15 hours ago, macahoom said:

 

 

You asked for success stories:

 

My Thai girlfriend has been granted Schengen visas (for Spain) three times in the last 12 years, the most recent being last year. I am a UK citizen.

Thanks. Good to hear success stories. No problem with having to book flights before you got the visa, which is what they specify now?

[macahoom]

8 hours ago, beau thai said:

Thanks. Good to hear success stories. No problem with having to book flights before you got the visa, which is what they specify now?

 

I've been helping my girlfriend to apply for visas to lots of countries for nearly 15 years. I've always taken the bull by the horns and booked everything, including flights, in advance of each visa application.

 

I know this is an extremely risky strategy, but all her visa applications have been successful.

Edited November 17, 2019 by macahoom

[beau thai]

On 11/18/2019 at 6:14 AM, macahoom said:

 

I've been helping my girlfriend to apply for visas to lots of countries for nearly 15 years. I've always taken the bull by the horns and booked everything, including flights, in advance of each visa application.

 

I know this is an extremely risky strategy, but all her visa applications have been successful.

Thanks and well done. We have also been successful so far but I read of many who arent and dont want to lose a costly pair of tickets to a refusal!

[ThomasThBKK]

we get spain shengen visas every year for holidays, never had an issue. Especially after the first shengen visa it's easy and they see you are a genuine tourist.