Visa Agents - Why Should We Be Castigated For Using Them

[Nowisee]

1 hour ago, worgeordie said:

Everything would be solved if Immigration employed even one

more officer,or opened up the booking online,then nobody would

have to pay for what is a FREE* service to apply,why dont they,I know,

and its not about not having enough money to employ more staff,

as they are spending Millions on a new building,and not because

they cannot find qualified staff,as they have done that with the new 

 offices that are opening up around the country.

*FREE to apply,but everyone pays the 1900 THB,just to clarify things.

regards Worgeordie

 

One more agent capable of floating to where they are needed would help.

Anything they can do online would save money and free up manpower.
Foreigners being prepared would really help. 
Immigration making a simple list of what you will need, posting it in English at the office and online AND sticking to it.  IF you are not prepared...NEXT. 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Nowisee

[Sparkles]

"Queue jumpers" is a better description that "Agents" in some cases.  

 

To improve the Imm service there has to be a will to do it,its simply not there

 

To be an "officer" its purely a clerical function.Working conditions are more than favourable , 5 day week, plenty of public holidays,annual leave ,customer free lunch hour and pension .Many Thais would give their right arm for a job like that. If there are crowds milling outside or unable to get processed that day its not their problem.

 

Unless they terminate the 90 day mail in method its a once a year experience for most of us.  I guess for that we should be thankful

[chuang]

What's all these mambo jumbo about....do as you wish why argue ...probably some will condemn others for staying in a 5-star hotel when they can pay 200 baht for a room at moonmuang...

[Lizard2010]

Not sure about mamborobert

 

He states about G4S

The Visa Agent is Called G4T

Unless it has changed

A typing error

Who knows

 

Worgeordie

 

I think if the immigration officers were able to multi task this would help

Maybe they are looking into this

As if they finish there job

They just use their phone or do whatever

Instead of helping other officers help their customers requirements

 

IMHO

 

[Bill97]

Not sure about mamborobert
 
He states about G4S
The Visa Agent is Called G4T
Unless it has changed
A typing error
Who knows
 
Worgeordie
 
I think if the immigration officers were able to multi task this would help
Maybe they are looking into this

 

Multitasking has negative results, look into it, it works for computers not for humans.

[Chicog]

Let's face it, this whole 90 day reporting thing is nothing but a nice job creation scheme, but obviously they've worked out that it can be quite lucrative to make it difficult for the customer as well.
 

If you google "Thailand Immigration Corruption" and the name of any city with an immigration office, I'm sure you will find plenty to chew over.

 

I don't believe The Nation is on the TV banned list, and in 2015 they opined:

 

Quote

The report to the premier describes what some Immigration Police have been doing. They extend the stays of foreigners who bribe them; they advise foreigners how to get around the law on visa runs; they are paid to allow illegal entries; they issue their own work permits; they demand grossly inflated fees for visas on arrival from foreigners who wouldn’t pay except out of desperation or ill intent; and they intimidate foreigners, many of them probably innocent, into paying bribes.

They are aware of the problem, as they are of the rampant traffic deaths, but in both cases there is absolutely no will to do anything about it.

 

 

[Lizard2010]

4 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Multitasking has negative results, look into it, it works for computers not for humans.

Sorry

But you are wrong

These days you have to he able to do  more than your own work help others if needed

Maybe in your day

But not these days

Productivity is the key word

 

[Nowisee]

5 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Multitasking has negative results, look into it, it works for computers not for humans.

 

52 minutes ago, Lizard2010 said:

Sorry

But you are wrong

These days you have to he able to do  more than your own work help others if needed

Maybe in your day

But not these days

Productivity is the key word

 

Sorry, but I think he's correct.

 

Google: does multitasking really work

 

Enjoying the reading.

[NancyL]

There's a difference between multi-tasking and cross-training.  What's needed at CM Immigration is more cross-training.  It doesn't make sense for one officer to be working his tail off at a task while others are sitting around playing with their phones.  Those with nothing to do should put down their phones and offer to help the guy who is having a busy day.  

 

I managed a customer service center for a large corporation for a time.  Every CSR had their desk laid out the same way, ie. with the forms kept in the same places on every desk, with the documents flowing the same way, tasks done in the same order, key phone numbers posted by their phones, etc.  Any of the reps could step in to do the other's job and one could answer the overflow phone calls for the other and input orders outside their zone without any service interruption.

 

When I came on board, however, there was one big exception -- the three ladies who handled the Canadian business had some additional tasks related to cross-border trade and they had made it all seem very mysterious and special, like no one else in the office could be dealt into the mysteries of the North.  As a result, sometimes the Canadian customers had to wait longer than the norm for the U.S.   It was a matter of performing some "cross-training" so that everyone in the office was able to process the couple extra documents necessary to ship our stuff across the border.  It really wasn't a big deal and it improved service levels.  However, the three women who had handled the Canadian customers forever didn't like the idea of having the share their holiday maple candy treats and other swag with the entire office, but oh well......

[evenstevens]

17 minutes ago, NancyL said:

There's a difference between multi-tasking and cross-training.  What's needed at CM Immigration is more cross-training.  It doesn't make sense for one officer to be working his tail off at a task while others are sitting around playing with their phones.  Those with nothing to do should put down their phones and offer to help the guy who is having a busy day.

 

I managed a customer service center for a large corporation for a time.  Every CSR had their desk laid out the same way, ie. with the forms kept in the same places on every desk, with the documents flowing the same way, tasks done in the same order, key phone numbers posted by their phones, etc.  Any of the reps could step in to do the other's job and one could answer the overflow phone calls for the other and input orders outside their zone without any service interruption.

 

When I came on board, however, there was one big exception -- the three ladies who handled the Canadian business had some additional tasks related to cross-border trade and they had made it all seem very mysterious and special, like no one else in the office could be dealt into the mysteries of the North.  As a result, sometimes the Canadian customers had to wait longer than the norm for the U.S.   It was a matter of performing some "cross-training" so that everyone in the office was able to process the couple extra documents necessary to ship our stuff across the border.  It really wasn't a big deal and it improved service levels.  However, the three women who had handled the Canadian customers forever didn't like the idea of having the share their holiday maple candy treats and other swag with the entire office, but oh well......

But

    Nancy  L  ,we are in Chiangmai, Thailand, different kettle of fish etc etc so to speak

 besides a very small fee of 3000 baht,  at G4T  visa  agency  takes care of the above western ideals,and falls  in line with the  Asian system

sadly  you have not  had the actual experience,  of  dealing with the Cmai  Immgr  Dept, with any reputable visa agent in C/mai, just done it, under your own hot steam

so therefore your above comments,are a load of

its a G4T lovely evening to all

[JaseTheBass]

I use an agent so I don't have to waste time doing the white monkey dance. I have a job that I regard higher than govt *******s.

[Lizard2010]

1 hour ago, Nowisee said:

 

Sorry, but I think he's correct.

 

Google: does multitasking really work

 

Enjoying the reading.

Ah so you believe everything you read on Google and the Internet

Well what can I say!!!

[LarryBird]

21 hours ago, amexpat said:

Ya got me.  I confess.  I want to see everyone in abject poverty with no hope of upward mobility. I just can't help it.

 

And FolkGuitar has me pegged too.  I fall for the assumptions that corruption, bribery, evolution, and gravity exist. 

 

Perfect!  I love the chick in your avatar, too. 

 

These same people who disagree with you would go along with the narrative that all of the evil in the world is a result of western colonialism, too. 

[amexpat]

2 hours ago, Lizard2010 said:

Ah so you believe everything you read on Google and the Internet

Well what can I say!!!

Well you can say that you won't make any more absurd generalizations such as claiming that someone who references one thing must believe everything he reads on the internet.

 

Now turn off your mom's computer, do your homework, and go to bed. 

 

[LarryBird]

15 hours ago, Chicog said:

Let's face it, this whole 90 day reporting thing is nothing but a nice job creation scheme, but obviously they've worked out that it can be quite lucrative to make it difficult for the customer as well.
 

If you google "Thailand Immigration Corruption" and the name of any city with an immigration office, I'm sure you will find plenty to chew over.

 

I don't believe The Nation is on the TV banned list, and in 2015 they opined:

 

They are aware of the problem, as they are of the rampant traffic deaths, but in both cases there is absolutely no will to do anything about it.

 

 

LOL at anyone who disagrees with this post.

[true blue]

14 hours ago, NancyL said:

There's a difference between multi-tasking and cross-training.  What's needed at CM Immigration is more cross-training.  It doesn't make sense for one officer to be working his tail off at a task while others are sitting around playing with their phones.  Those with nothing to do should put down their phones and offer to help the guy who is having a busy day.  

 

I managed a customer service center for a large corporation for a time.  Every CSR had their desk laid out the same way, ie. with the forms kept in the same places on every desk, with the documents flowing the same way, tasks done in the same order, key phone numbers posted by their phones, etc.  Any of the reps could step in to do the other's job and one could answer the overflow phone calls for the other and input orders outside their zone without any service interruption.

 

When I came on board, however, there was one big exception -- the three ladies who handled the Canadian business had some additional tasks related to cross-border trade and they had made it all seem very mysterious and special, like no one else in the office could be dealt into the mysteries of the North.  As a result, sometimes the Canadian customers had to wait longer than the norm for the U.S.   It was a matter of performing some "cross-training" so that everyone in the office was able to process the couple extra documents necessary to ship our stuff across the border.  It really wasn't a big deal and it improved service levels.  However, the three women who had handled the Canadian customers forever didn't like the idea of having the share their holiday maple candy treats and other swag with the entire office, but oh well......

Walter mitty is alive and well I see.

[scottiejohn]

From the OP. Thanks for all the responses.

 

A précis of comments, thoughts and observations on this thread so far. They are in no particular order but enumerated to make any quoting/reference easier so no need for anyone re-quoting the whole post if they wish to comment, add or refute.

 

1. Upside. I am glad to see that one of my objectives of starting this post has been achieved as the Promenda Thread has not been touched since Friday. It seems it may be able to revert to its function of giving advice of those going to/using Prom (with or without agents) and lots of discussion (continued below).

 

2. Downside. Thread high jacked in particular to discuss corruption and the pros/cons of multitasking.

 

3. Corruption. I knew it would be raised but what has it to do with this specific subject?  Thailand’s corruption status in the world corruption rankings is well known. What has corruption got to do with using agents in general. (lets leave NancyL's tirade against G4 aside and the unproven corruption allegations made regarding that company in particular). I assume we all must have known something about the country and its reputation in that regard before coming here and having to visit/utilise visa extension services on a regular basis other than as a casual tourist.

 

4. Multitasking. Can you drive a car and talk at the same time, read a book and catch the important sports result(s), watch sport and acknowledge the other half when 'that question that must be answered' is noted and responded to. If so you are multitasking. NancyL was closer to the mark, in her response regarding this with what I call ‘cross training’. Cross training and multitasking are different. If you were in a sports team would you not move to ‘cover’ a team member as they move out of position or just hold your useless position while the crowd and your team manager et al  are shouting abuse at you!

 

5. Use of ‘Agents’ in general. The use of an ‘Agent’ (no matter the nomenclature) to facilitate a service is as old as the hills. They are used by their customers to trade off time, convenience and money. A visa agent is no different to a Travel Agent, Estate Agent or Insurance Agent etc. Trawl the net, sit on a plastic chair for unknown hours, walk or drive the streets for unknown hours or pay some extra money ‘up front’ to get an agent or a Customer Representative (as NancyL described herself!) to do it for you!

 

6. Visa Agents. ‘Visa Agent’ under various disguises have been in use in Chiang Mai and other areas of Thailand since at least 2000 when I first used them. (They were called ‘Visa Desk’  reps or agents in certain legit and unfortunately some very shady, so called, lawyers offices then.) Same system then as now. They booked times at the ‘old airport and told you when to arrive and sign the forms in front of the Immigration Officer. No hanging around with the 'sweaty masses' in that old ramshackle hut of an office.

 

7. Choice. Using a high street Visa agent is no different to using 'fast track services' at most major airports to get through security and/or passport control quickly. Nothing to do with class of travel, status or corruption, just choice- time versus money!

 

8. Castigation. I have been coming to Thailand long enough not to be clueless, need hand holding or are a first timer (and need) to use an agent. (Edit of NancyL’s comment which caused this thread to be started in the first place!)

 

9. The ‘good old days’. The ‘Old’ Immigration office near to the Airport has never been the ‘Rosy Eyed’ perfect place before the move to Prom. It was often overcrowded, very hot, humid and understaffed with no parking etc. See point six above.

 

That’s my comments so far! Over to you all.

Edited February 20, 2017 by scottiejohn

[Chicog]

Quote

3. Corruption. I knew it would be raised but what has it to do with this specific subject?  

Cognitive Bias in action.

[Lizard2010]

I am not sure what you or others have worked in different work places

A lot has to do with productivity and wage rises

It does not seem to apply to Thailand

They all think different to the western ways of working

these day you are required in most instances to be able to more than 1 job where you work

if a person is sick someone has to do the job

Or if that particular person has many customers

You help if you have nothing to so

In my work ethics you were  required to do this

This is the norm these days

As NancyL stated it helped in a call Centre

We all have had different work places so all not the same

If the workers at Immigration have finished  help your work colages

Simple as that

 

 

[Flustered]

51 minutes ago, Lizard2010 said:

 

If the workers at Immigration have finished  help your work colages

Simple as that

 

 

Good luck trying to get Government workers to do that in Thailand (or anywhere else).

 

Good meaning socialist attitude that does not take into account human nature.

 

You will be taking those principles to the grave with you I am afraid.

 

I do however agree with them, I am just more of a realist.

[pgrahmm]

Scottiejohn....

 

One thing left out was pleasantness/unpleasantness/surliness of the entire experience.... More than a few years ago it was actually a bit of fun & a break in the routine of life to go to the airport office....Almost always you could spot someone you knew & catch up on the gossip/times, find somebody interesting to chat with, whatever - but I kind of looked forward to it.....A bit of the adventure & luck of the draw... 

 

Somewhere along the way it started turning ugly....I've witnessed instances where people almost came to blows, having to be calmed/restrained (over pushing, snatching forms, 2 feet of space, standing positions - people shouting & escorted out - one Thai lady verbally assaulted, and pulled back for doing nothing more than standing in front of the door for over 2 hours minding her own quiet business, pulled away because two other late arriving women wanted her place - and took it from her)....The mood had changed, it wasn't any longer free spirited & good natured....Just the opposite in fact - grim -  and I didn't like it....Tried the appointment system but it was hit & miss....I was driving almost 30k each way, getting up in the middle of the night to see more & more people behaving badly - men and women....

 

People talk about the mood of the counter help but I use to marvel at how they kept their calm - and how we must have appeared to them over, and over, and over....

 

When the crowd's mood turned consistantly sour, (souring me on the experience), is when I sought an agent....And I've never been sorry for it.... It's put the pleasantness 

back into it for me + I can do it on my timing by and large....Choosing the company I keep....

 

I'm neither meek, weak, or thin skinned, but am thankful for the options....

 

The Promenada office is a lot more pleasant to experience than the airport office, allowing for time diversions....If nothing else that helps keep the "pressured/slightly askew" people in check, for the most part.....Certainly, the moods would have to be better now + people seem to dress a little better there also....

 

But I'll keep the agent....

 

It's not always the inconvenience of "time".....

 

 

[HaleySabai]

On 2017-02-15 at 7:08 PM, MadMac said:

Don't blame Nancy, it's corrupt Kindergarten in Chiang Mai. I f you want tot support corruption, use an agent. Simple,

Oh, that's what it's about...mmm...I thought it was about convenience.

The old 'private' Vs. 'public' argument.... stand in line or pay to save your time (and nerves)... simple choice really, glad to have the option.

One-eye open one-eye closed...good luck with trying to change this system.

 

I won't be surprised if in the not so distant future it becomes mandatory for all visa-apps to be funneled through the hands of an agency.

Edited February 20, 2017 by HaleySabai

[Chicog]

10 minutes ago, HaleySabai said:

Oh, that's what it's about...mmm...I thought it was about convenience.

The old 'private' Vs. 'public' argument.... stand in line or pay to save your time (and nerves)... simple choice really, glad to have the option.

One-eye open one-eye closed...good luck with trying to change this system.

 

I won't be surprised if in the not so distant future it becomes mandatory for all visa-apps to be funneled through the hands of an agency.

 

Which would probably mean that the cake tin is being delivered to a much bigger office.

[NancyL]

16 minutes ago, HaleySabai said:

Oh, that's what it's about...mmm...I thought it was about convenience.

The old 'private' Vs. 'public' argument.... stand in line or pay to save your time (and nerves)... simple choice really, glad to have the option.

One-eye open one-eye closed...good luck with trying to change this system.

 

I won't be surprised if in the not so distant future it becomes mandatory for all visa-apps to be funneled through the hands of an agency.

 

And that would be fine if it became official Thai gov't policy that all visa-apps have to be funneled through the hands of an agency.  I'd have no problems with that.  If there were officially appointed visa agents.  

 

Much like VFS Global handles the applications of Thai people who want to travel to the U.K.  

 

Much like the official gov't website for Malaysia's ten year retirement visa, Malaysia My Second Home, has a "searchable" list of registered visa agents.  The maximum fees a Malaysian visa agent can charge are listed, as are the requirements to become a visa agent.  So, if someone holds themselves out to be a visa agent and isn't on this website, or quotes a price in excess of of what's allowed, that should raise concern.  Also, the requirements of what's needed to obtain the MM2H visa are fairly well spelled out on the gov't website.  You don't need to hire a visa agent, esp. if English (one of the official languages of Malaysia) is the language of your documents.  

 

In both situations, the U.K. visas and Malaysian visas, it's not mandatory to hire a visa agent, but the option exists for those who want the convenience and peace-of-mind.  The agents have been approved by the gov't and the fees they charge aren't enriching the pockets of specific gov't officers.  In other words, the U.K. and Malaysian officials who grant visas have no specific personal incentive to give crummy service because they're not getting any direct benefit from the fees paid by the customers of their officially sanctioned visa agents.

[Flustered]

3 hours ago, Lizard2010 said:

 

I have no idea why a post keep on picking up someone elses name as I did not quote them.

 

My post.

 

Reading these posts, it is obvious that some FMs are very passionate about back handers and "corruption". I put corruption in quotes because what is corruption for one is a normal way of life for another.

 

When you come to Thailand, do you honestly expect everyone to behave the same as back in your home country whether it is America, UK, Australia etc. because of you do you are sadly mistaken.

 

In Middle Eastern countries, the 10% off the top for the agent is a way of life going back centuries. Greasing palms to get to see someone or being awarded a gong has been the way of the west for centuries so why get so high and mighty when some Thais are entrepreneurial enough to start a company that does the work for someone wanting a visa and who does not want the hassle.

 

What is the problem of a poorly paid worker getting a backhander to expedite a visa. Since when was it a necessity to impose western moralistic values on Thailand. You knew what the country was like when you came here so if you don't like it, go back home to your perfect world. And that is a joke, America is probably the most corrupt country in the world. At least in Thailand, the guys at the bottom get to wet their beaks.

[Chicog]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

In Middle Eastern countries, the 10% off the top for the agent is a way of life going back centuries.

Agencies are a legal framework, and they don't go back centuries; they were mostly 20th century agreements with the manufacturers.

In this age of free trade, you could argue that this is protectionism, but it is not the same as backhanders.

 

 

 

 

[Flustered]

14 minutes ago, Chicog said:

Agencies are a legal framework, and they don't go back centuries; they were mostly 20th century agreements with the manufacturers.

In this age of free trade, you could argue that this is protectionism, but it is not the same as backhanders.

 

 

 

 

The cost of doing business in the Middle East countries (for example Oman or the Trucial States as was) has always had a 10% levy/fee call it what you want, that is paid to the owner of that particular section (telecoms, military, agriculture, banking etc.).

 

When securing trading licenses back in the 1800s, there was always a "fee" to be paid.

 

Backhanders are a part of life Always were, always will be. For FMs to get high and mighty about a few baht being paid to the lower echelons to expedite matters is ludicrous.

 

Know the system and use the system.

[Chicog]

5 hours ago, Flustered said:

The cost of doing business in the Middle East countries (for example Oman or the Trucial States as was) has always had a 10% levy/fee call it what you want, that is paid to the owner of that particular section (telecoms, military, agriculture, banking etc.).

 

When securing trading licenses back in the 1800s, there was always a "fee" to be paid.

 

Backhanders are a part of life Always were, always will be. For FMs to get high and mighty about a few baht being paid to the lower echelons to expedite matters is ludicrous.

 

Know the system and use the system.

 

Not matter how you try to rephrase it, you are confusing legal systems with corruption.

 

Better to raise the fee and hire more staff, or introduce an incentive scheme to stop them playing with their mobiles.

[worgeordie]

Can we not change "castigated" in the headline to" castrated ",would be

much more interesting,paying for a FREE service,what next,an agent to secure

a queue number ,for Banks,Hospitals,etc.as long as people keep paying,to jump

the queue,nothing will change.

regards worgeordie

[Dante99]

Damn right Gordie, we should all get to sit in Business and First Class with our economy class tickets too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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