Israeli soldier gets 18 months' jail for killing wounded Palestinian attacker

[Galactus]

On 2/24/2017 at 0:43 PM, oby said:

He stabbed at me and my partner.  He tried to kill me with a knife.

He was not murdered.  He was killed.

Why tie up needed medical help so he can go on to blow up a bus, a hospital blah blah kill jews, infidels, spend 11 minutes to behead someone, sawing back and forth.

 He is dead, he tried to kill and lost, get over it,,

Maybe, next time will be you or one of your family on the wrong side of the suicide bomber

Cheers and have a dandy day, avoid the Boston marathons, fort hood, Yada ya 

yeah, get over it. anyway it was palestinian muslim killed not a jew israeli, no?

discrimination at its worse.

if you kill a wounded person laying on the ground, it is an extra juidical murder. you cannot cover sun with the sh.t. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Galactus

[Jingthing]

In any case anyone of any ethnicity that goes after armed soldiers with a knife in any country has some kind of death and/or martyrdom wish. That doesn't excuse killing a wounded person on the ground, of course, but don't have any illusions about that Arab dude's expectation to die that day. He almost got "lucky" but he would have been surprised to wake up in a hospital after pulling that stunt. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Jingthing

[JimmyJ]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

In any case anyone of any ethnicity that goes after armed soldiers with a knife in any country has some kind of death and/or martyrdom wish. That doesn't excuse killing a wounded person on the ground but don't have any illusions about that guy's expectation to die that day. 

 

Correct, it doesn't excuse killing a wounded person on the ground.

[Jingthing]

Just now, JimmyJ said:

 

Correct, it doesn't excuse killing a wounded person on the ground.

Yes, and the Israeli court also came to that conclusion, so the argument here is about the light sentence and it's hard to see that sentence as anything but light. 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[Galactus]

2 hours ago, oby said:

ummmmmmm,

?got a link for the phosphor bombs??

and the arabs are using mortars, machine guns, missles, drones,

you're in denial, jack,

black september, murder at the olympics, hijacking planes

blah blah

there are many links, just a google away. and you know it.

 

palestinians can do whatever they can to get their stolen land, their lives and future back. these are their basic human rights and of course, never forget, there is no law, court or an organization palestinians can claim their basic rights lawfully! there is no US or an affluent jew diaspora backing them either with billions of dollars, guns (US taxpayers' money) or politically.

so, they resist whatever means necessary. sure you do the same. but you are the powerful side so you dont care and play golf on the desert and enjoy the benefits US provides.

Israel is the powerful side in this conflict so this bloodshed is the responsibility of Israel. 

 

[Morch]

 

@Galactus

 

No, the Palestinians may not do "whatever they can" and all will be considered legitimate. Not even if you give them the go ahead. In fact, even some of the  Palestinians themselves concede that not all attacks are legitimate, nor all means and targets. The UN is not in agreement  with your extreme view as well. So do most interpretations of relevant international laws.

 

Whether or not this applies to the OP, is a different matter, which was previously addressed. With regard to "responsibility", the view that one of the sides is solely responsible for everything is hardly a serious position.

[Thorgal]

No dishonerable discharge intended for the IDF soldier.

He has been sentenced by a military court and he will wear his uniform during his 'jail' time.

He did already 11 months, so he will spend another 6 months in soft detention with regular visits to his family.

Let's not forget that he has dual citizenship and according to international laws de facto an Israeli military court can't be an equivalent to the French civil court.

The crime happened on the Palestinian side of Hebron...and the case should be under Palestinian jurisdiction or under international jurisdiction...



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[Morch]

 

@Thorgal

 

The usual, expected drivel.

 

Details of the trial and sentence will appear in Azaria's discharge certificate, which he will receive once his prison time is done. Hence, there is no way that it will resemble an ordinary honorable discharge certificate. Additionally, he was demoted to the rank of private, which will appear on his papers as well.

 

All soldiers sentenced to incarceration in military prisons wear uniforms. These uniforms are not similar to standard issue ones, but rather, second hand US Army are used.

 

The only time deducted from his prison time is the 9 days he's been under arrest. This was clearly stated in the sentence. Detention does not count toward serving prison time.

 

Your legal expertise notwithstanding, unless someone will actually attempt to file a law suit in France, the point made above is irrelevant. The sagacious interpretations of international law are pretty much in the same vain - more along the lines of fantasies, rather than how things actually work. The shooting took place in an area under Israeli military rule, and not "on the Palestinian side of Hebron". Additionally, IDF soldiers are not subject to Palestinian jurisdiction, even if you imagine that they are.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@Thorgal

 

The usual, expected drivel.

 

Details of the trial and sentence will appear in Azaria's discharge certificate, which he will receive once his prison time is done. Hence, there is no way that it will resemble an ordinary honorable discharge certificate. 

 

 

Among a significant portion of the Israeli populace, that will be a plus on his resumé.

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Among a significant portion of the Israeli populace, that will be a plus on his resumé.

 

Among a significant portion of the participants of these topics, such nonsense is the norm.

 

The conviction will do him no favors once he faces the real world. It would, for example, automatically disqualify him from certain government posts and security jobs.

[Thorgal]

 
@Thorgal
 
The usual, expected drivel.
 
Details of the trial and sentence will appear in Azaria's discharge certificate, which he will receive once his prison time is done. Hence, there is no way that it will resemble an ordinary honorable discharge certificate. Additionally, he was demoted to the rank of private, which will appear on his papers as well.
 
All soldiers sentenced to incarceration in military prisons wear uniforms. These uniforms are not similar to standard issue ones, but rather, second hand US Army are used.
 
The only time deducted from his prison time is the 9 days he's been under arrest. This was clearly stated in the sentence. Detention does not count toward serving prison time.
 
Your legal expertise notwithstanding, unless someone will actually attempt to file a law suit in France, the point made above is irrelevant. The sagacious interpretations of international law are pretty much in the same vain - more along the lines of fantasies, rather than how things actually work. The shooting took place in an area under Israeli military rule, and not "on the Palestinian side of Hebron". Additionally, IDF soldiers are not subject to Palestinian jurisdiction, even if you imagine that they are.

There's no dishonourable discharge and he will leave the IDF with his uniform. He will remain afterwards as a reservist and he can even still apply for a military career.

The arrest by the Israeli Military Police of the soldier was followed after the video footage was made public. Not by any of his superiors on the crime scene.

None of his superiors were even arrested and sentenced.

The court verdict was announced on 22nd of February, exactly the same day where in France the yearly 'dinner du CRIF' (French AIPAC) is organised with past, present and future French political figures and presidential candidates.
Coincidence for sure...as it took 11 months to deliberate the verdict...

Case closed.


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[Morch]

@Thorgal

 

More unsubstantiated and made-up drivel.

 

For starters, conscripts return uniforms to the IDF, hence do not get discharged with "their uniform" anyway.  As details of his sentence and prison time will appear on his discharge certificate, which will automatically disqualify him from having the "honorable" bit, and most likely - even a worse citation. Your assertions that he would continue as a reservist aren't supported by much, having such a record is by itself grounds for dismissal from reserve service (his economic and psychological profile would probably see to it anyway). Same goes for perusing a military career.

 

Officers do not have the authority to "arrest" soldiers, that's what military police is for. As opposed to what you posted, he was detained by his commanders after the shooting. Unless mistaken, two commanding officers were reprimanded - there was no criminal charges brought against them that I know of, but being a self-proclaimed legal expert, you'll probably find fault with that as well.

 

I seriously doubt the military court paid much attention to a yearly dinner held in France. In fact, there wasn't much made of Azaria's dual citizenship during the trial. If anything, Courts, civil and military, taking their time is the norm in Israel. 

 

Not so much "case closed" as a case of a closed mind.

 

[ilostmypassword]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Among a significant portion of the participants of these topics, such nonsense is the norm.

 

The conviction will do him no favors once he faces the real world. It would, for example, automatically disqualify him from certain government posts and security jobs.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Israeli economy consists of more than government posts and security jobs. Considering that over half the Israeli population supported Elor Azaria and 2/3 think he should be pardoned, he should have no problem finding himself a job once he's back out on the streets. Surely Sheldon Adelson can find something for him.

Edited March 4, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[Morch]

54 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Israeli economy consists of more than government posts and security jobs. Considering that over half the Israeli population supported Elor Azaria and 2/3 think he should be pardoned, he should have no problem finding himself a job once he's back out on the streets. Surely Sheldon Adelson can find something for him.

 

Your mistake lies elsewhere - more to do with assuming that opinion polls translate directly to everyday conduct and decisions. Having a criminal record is will definitely be a problem in the work market, whether you like to acknowledge the obvious fact or not. The couple of examples given are not the only ones, of course. Sure, there will be people who'll hire him, for one reason or another. But to say it wouldn't harm his prospects is nonsense. Doubt that the Adelson comment got any substance to it.

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed.  

[ilostmypassword]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Your mistake lies elsewhere - more to do with assuming that opinion polls translate directly to everyday conduct and decisions. Having a criminal record is will definitely be a problem in the work market, whether you like to acknowledge the obvious fact or not. The couple of examples given are not the only ones, of course. Sure, there will be people who'll hire him, for one reason or another. But to say it wouldn't harm his prospects is nonsense. Doubt that the Adelson comment got any substance to it.

Harm his prospects in some places and help them in others.

[Morch]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

Harm his prospects in some places and help them in others.

 

Allow me to doubt that this statement got much to lean on. Most mainstream workplaces will probably have issues with his record. Given the public attention span, his "celebrity" status will erode rather quickly, so apart from some die hard right wingers, I wouldn't count on anyone giving him any preferential treatment. As far as I'm aware, past cases relating to similar actions, did not really see perpetrators do all that well after serving time.

 

If he was better connected, articulate and skilled, perhaps. As things  stand, he'll remain a bottom feeder.

[JimmyJ]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 As far as I'm aware, past cases relating to similar actions, did not really see perpetrators do all that well after serving time.

 

 

I find it extremely rare to ever see "after prison updates" - how someone is doing who was convicted of a crime and is now out of prison.

 

"...did not really see perpetrators do all that well after serving time."

 

How do you find the updates? You keep track of imprisoned people's names and keep doing searches once they are released?

 

Can you give links to a few examples?

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by JimmyJ

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

I find it extremely rare to ever see "after prison updates" - how someone is doing who was convicted of a crime and is now out of prison.

 

"...did not really see perpetrators do all that well after serving time."

 

How do you find the updates? You keep track of imprisoned people's names and keep doing searches once they are released?

 

Can you give links to a few examples?

 

 

I find it extremely rare for posters to actually take an interest in details, or engage in anything but cursory inquiries, while often relaying on partial or shoddy reporting.

 

It is true, and was actually pointed out earlier, most of these people do not receive much public attention after serving their sentences. That does not mean that details are not available, though. Looking up the names of involved persons, and digging around a bit usually gives a clue as to their current situation. This applies pretty much everywhere, not just within the context of this topic of this conflict. Most times, barring recidivism or new controversy related to their actions arises, these sort of details aren't exactly headline material, they are easier to track down if one isn't solely reliant on foreign reports. The same way those of us fluent in Thai can sometimes be better informed with regard to certain news stories, not a whole lot of mystery there.

 

No intention of starting an off-topic discussions about other specific cases (which is, I believe, what you're after). I also note that no such request was made of posters making opposing claims. There are several Wikipedia pages listing related incidents and cases, and a few websites of Israeli right wing organizations providing legal aid for such people - names (and even some details) can be found therein. Alternatively, one can sift through some of the Israeli left wing websites, and come up with additional information.

 

The same process can be applied to with regard to Palestinian (and/or Israeli Arabs), using other resources found on the internet, a bit trickier and even less accessible, perhaps.

[CharlieK]

15 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Your mistake lies elsewhere - more to do with assuming that opinion polls translate directly to everyday conduct and decisions. Having a criminal record is will definitely be a problem in the work market, whether you like to acknowledge the obvious fact or not. The couple of examples given are not the only ones, of course. Sure, there will be people who'll hire him, for one reason or another. But to say it wouldn't harm his prospects is nonsense. Doubt that the Adelson comment got any substance to it.

I'm inclined to disagree. He was a serving soldier not an ordinary criminal. This will have no effect his prospects once released from prison. For Israelis he is a hero regardless of the PC brigade. 

[dexterm]

There are two justice systems in the so called only democracy in the Middle East, one for Israeli Jews and one for Palestinians.

 

Within 24 hours of Azaria being sentenced to a mere 18 months for murdering a wounded Palestinian, a Palestinian who has already served 36 years in prison for his part in the planning of the kidnapping and killing of an Israeli soldier and was due to be released in November 2016 but has had his earlier life sentence reinstated.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/02/palestinian-prisoners-urged-boycott-israeli-courts-170228052245774.html

 

Not only is Azaria's sentence ridiculously lenient, if his sentence is reduced on appeal or he is pardoned it will make a mockery of Israeli justice.

 

Of course, it would also give the green light to any future extra judicial murder by the IDF and demonstrate Israel's hypocrisy in claiming Palestinian leadership incites violence.
 

Edited March 5, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

I'm inclined to disagree. He was a serving soldier not an ordinary criminal. This will have no effect his prospects once released from prison. For Israelis he is a hero regardless of the PC brigade. 

 

You can disagree all you like, wouldn't change reality. Having this on one's record is no boon. And relation between pole results and his future employment prospects are far from a given. Once again, things in reality are usually a wee bit more complex than posters assume on the basis of poles and such.

 

He is not a hero for all Israelis, and among some of those that called or supported for leniency, the sentiment was more along the lines of not placing the blame on the grunt, rather than praising his crime.

 

I get it that posters of either partisan view here wishes to make nonsensical claims supporting their position, apologies if reality is somewhat less clear cut than that.

[CharlieK]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

get it that posters of either partisan view here wishes to make nonsensical claims supporting their position, apologies if reality is somewhat less clear cut than that.

I appreciate that reality can be stranger than nonsensical opinions! Any other military and you would be 100% right. But in a country where everyone is a soldier and many see him as the victim. He will have many willing to help and support him once released from prison.  IMO 

[Galactus]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Among a significant portion of the participants of these topics, such nonsense is the norm.

 

The conviction will do him no favors once he faces the real world. It would, for example, automatically disqualify him from certain government posts and security jobs.

dont worry. they can get him into mossad soon, change his identity and let him do some nasty stuff.

 

so murderer idf soldier will be free soon after a slap on the wrist so he can kill more palestinians. what a shame for Israel! they clearly showed that there are no laws there and to respect for human rights. they showed to the world allegedly that an israeli can kill a palestinian freely and get away with it and actually, that israeli is accepted and celebrated as a hero. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Galactus

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

I appreciate that reality can be stranger than nonsensical opinions! Any other military and you would be 100% right. But in a country where everyone is a soldier and many see him as the victim. He will have many willing to help and support him once released from prison.  IMO 

 

From this post, and the previous one, it would seem that rather than appreciating reality, you employ misguided labels and slogans. Not everyone is Israel is a soldier, and he's not a "hero" or a "victim" for all Israelis. As posted earlier, public support at one point does not necessarily directly translate to help afforded down the line. That some will is probable, that this will be widespread, doubtful. 

[CharlieK]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

you employ misguided labels and slogans

to

 

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

That some will is probable

So you admit there is some reality in my nonsense?

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Speaking of hypocrisy, I seem to recall that one of your favorite catchphrases is "two wrong don't make a right", or something along these lines. In the case you linked, the Palestinian in question was released under a controversial prisoner exchange, conditional on refraining from engaging in certain activities related to politics and terrorism. His subsequent arrest and imprisonment are a result of breaching the conditions of his release.

 

As opposed to your usual one-sided take on things, a more common view aired in Israel is that Azaria's conviction will actually make soldiers think twice in future incidents. There are varying opinions as to whether this is a negative or positive outcome. To date, I do not think anyone has actually shown an instance where such consideration played part either way.

 

The current Israeli government engaging in incitement is nothing new, but there are way better examples than the trial and its outcome. This, again, does not imply that the many among the Palestinian leadership do not engage in similar actions. The hypocrisy would be to claim it as a one-sided thing, as you often do.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

to

 

So you admit there is some reality in my nonsense?

 

I'd thank you for not quoting bits of my posts out of context.

 

And no, your posts were more along the lines of making broad brush statements. Had a more careful and reasoned phrasing been employed I'd have less issues with them.

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Galactus said:

dont worry. they can get him into mossad soon, change his identity and let him do some nasty stuff.

 

so murderer idf soldier will be free soon after a slap on the wrist so he can kill more palestinians. what a shame for Israel! they clearly showed that there are no laws there and to respect for human rights. they showed to the world allegedly that an israeli can kill a palestinian freely and get away with it and actually, that israeli is accepted and celebrated as a hero. 

 

I don't worry at all, the deluge of predictable nonsense posting is almost reassuring.

 

Azaria will not serve on any security related organization, not with his record and not with his obvious lack of intelligence. There's no particular reason to think that he'll repeat his actions once released. If anything, the trial showed that "there is a law", the issue is more to do with it's application. Similarly, Azaria did not exactly "get away with it". And no, he's not a national hero.