UK defends Trump state visit offer despite protest

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

As a normal American (i.e., hates Trump) I agree with those who don't want Trump on any state visit. After all, they didn't invite Truman or FDR or even JFK until they'd been in office a while. On the other hand, also as an American, I am not impressed with being "granted" a visit with any ****ing queen. We are not subjects of any monarchy and unlike the self-righteous Canadians, we don't have a state with the name "British" in it.

 

So you were against Obama's state visit too?

 

As an American, your rudeness at other countries, is thankfully not typical. Most Americans accept that other countries have a different history than their relative short immigrant invasion of part of North America. And many even understand historical ceremony and the reasons why it can be good.

 

Even in the USA's short life some traditions have already been established.

 

You from Boston or NY then?

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Like prostitution? 

 

I doubt Her Majesty will kiss Trump on the lips though ?

 

The UK lost "face" ever since Suez.

 

France and the UK decided on the Suez strategy. What happened thereafter clearly showed the world they were no longer world powers. That was now the US in the West and Soviets in the East.

 

The new world order was announced. About to change again - and probably sooner than we think.

[pitrevie]

10 minutes ago, alanrchase said:

 

You do have a "New England" though if I remember correctly.

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and don't forget New York

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What nonsense. A small percentage of the population object to Trump making a state visit. The usual left wing PC rent-a-crowd who protest anyone they don't consider to be PC to their ideology. Did you see the interviews with some of them? Talking drivel.

 

Perhaps you think we should have a referendum on it?

 

But to be serious, none of these "democracy" lovers protested when the Chinese dictator, who represents an authoritarian non elected regime, where free speech and democracy are oppressed, where people are persecuted because of their religion or ethnic origin and that occupies another sovereign state by force and is currently expanding in areas the International Courts say it has no rights too. 

No sir, he's welcomed with open arms. Even the clown of a speaker of the House of Commons who publicly stains the office and speaks out against Trump was filmed welcoming him in the most grovelling way!

 

Seems like it's o k to be non democratic,  non elected, oppressive and dictatorial as long as your're on the left. And that is the joke, the 'democracy" of the left. Only applies to themselves.

I suspect that we hold our Anglo Saxon cousins to substantially higher standards. 

 

Trump is an imbecile. He knows nothing. How do you imagine he will make polite conversation with Her Majesty?

 

Six times as many people petitioned against a state visit as those in favour.

 

I presume you are a Brexiteer as well as a Trumpeteer ( they seem to go hand in hand and hold similar value sets)? You won a majority of those who voted, not the whole population. Democracy you see - value everyone's opinions equally even if they are deranged or ill informed.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

France and the UK decided on the Suez strategy. What happened thereafter clearly showed the world they were no longer world powers. That was now the US in the West and Soviets in the East.

 

The new world order was announced. About to change again - and probably sooner than we think.

I suspect that if the USA had not interfered and agreed to let the UK and France get on with it, things would not be in such a mess now. The USA has had might for the last century but wisdom? Intellect? Hmm

 

Has the USA used its super power status for the general good? Your choice of presidents has certainly been, er, interesting....

[Baerboxer]

Just now, Grouse said:

I suspect that we hold our Anglo Saxon cousins to substantially higher standards. 

 

Trump is an imbecile. He knows nothing. How do you imagine he will make polite conversation with Her Majesty?

 

Six times as many people petitioned against a state visit as those in favour.

 

I presume you are a Brexiteer as well as a Trumpeteer ( they seem to go hand in hand and hold similar value sets)? You won a majority of those who voted, not the whole population. Democracy you see - value everyone's opinions equally even if they are deranged or ill informed.

 

You presume wrong. I voted to remain and am ambivalent to Trump. Some things he says are good, some ludicrous, some worrying. We shall see with him.

 

So how many was that "six times" - about 2 million people. How many of those were actually entitled to vote, or actually real people? Same with those who petitioned for. So the comparison isn't meaningful with the Brexit vote. The referendum was only ever positioned as advisory - and is now, thanks to the Supreme Court, going through the parliamentary process. Although May attending the House of Lords and giving the members the "evil eye" makes you wonder.

 

Democracy must value everyone's opinions equally - and not allow a small group to try to deny other the right to express their view. Like it or not Trump was elected POTUS - are most important ally. Whether that was a result we wanted, like or fits individual political agendas is irrelevant. Again, I make the point, all these "democracy loving" protesters did not oppose the Chinese dictator when he was granted a state visit. Neither did hypocritical politicians of the left.

 

That's another issue with democracy. Some, as with Brexit and the POTUS, decided not to vote, or couldn't be bothered. That doesn't mean you can count them as votes for the view you prefer.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, sungod said:

In recent years the UK has had numerous state visits from Middle Eastern Countries who suppress women's rights, and China who suppress everyone's rights?

 

Where were all these people then?

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

So why not an official visit?

 

Why do we need a state visit?

Presumably for the same reasons the UK has had state visits from appalling leaders of other countries - business and politics.

[dunroaming]

It is the "State Visit" bit that grinds.  I welcome Trump to come to the UK and feel the wrath of the people, both left wing loonies and the middle ground and indeed the conservatives to the right.  We are all disgusted by this man and his rantings.

 

However I have listened to the arguments on the other side, the ones that say Trump should get a State Visit as he is the current POTUS.  I do understand that we should not shun the USA as a whole and as Trump represents that country,  to reject the "President" would be a very negative thing to do.  I am sure the "firm" will do their bit to make him feel uncomfortable and ridicule him in their subtle way (however he won't even get it),

 

That is of course if he lasts in office long enough to make the trip at all!

[Andaman Al]

8 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

If the government (any) listened every time to a bunch of lefty, liberals when they didn't like something, then nobody would be allowed to visit. As for democracy they had there little protest and signed an online petition. That is it. People stamping their feet like children because they can't get there own way.

I still see remoaners using the democracy flag when it suits them. Trump was elected democratically. Start dealing with it.

 

6 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 

How dare  you call me a lover of the conservatives. I have never, ever voted for them.

 

AH I see , but it's ok for you to call anyone that opposes Trump a 'Lefty Liberal'. I have never ever voted Liberal or endorsed Liberal policies. I was a career military man and am definitely well right of centre. But my political leanings do not cloud my vision and I can quite easily see that when Trump stands shoulder to shoulder compared to other men he is a complete grade A w*****. His ego is so large it is quite possible he could die of ego overload when he enters the golden carriage with Her Majesty. I really do hope that William or Harry may be permitted to sit in the carriage to ensure that the Donald does not try and grab Her Majesty's private parts.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You presume wrong. I voted to remain and am ambivalent to Trump. Some things he says are good, some ludicrous, some worrying. We shall see with him.

 

So how many was that "six times" - about 2 million people. How many of those were actually entitled to vote, or actually real people? Same with those who petitioned for. So the comparison isn't meaningful with the Brexit vote. The referendum was only ever positioned as advisory - and is now, thanks to the Supreme Court, going through the parliamentary process. Although May attending the House of Lords and giving the members the "evil eye" makes you wonder.

 

Democracy must value everyone's opinions equally - and not allow a small group to try to deny other the right to express their view. Like it or not Trump was elected POTUS - are most important ally. Whether that was a result we wanted, like or fits individual political agendas is irrelevant. Again, I make the point, all these "democracy loving" protesters did not oppose the Chinese dictator when he was granted a state visit. Neither did hypocritical politicians of the left.

 

That's another issue with democracy. Some, as with Brexit and the POTUS, decided not to vote, or couldn't be bothered. That doesn't mean you can count them as votes for the view you prefer.

Well I'm comforted

 

I think an official visit would have been more appropriate

 

I hope the Lords DO add a couple of amendments

 

1) Give EU citizens the right to remain unilaterally. It WILL be reciprocated and generate goodwill 

 

2) Parliament MUST be allowed to agree the Brexit deal or reject it - ask the people if necessary.

[dunroaming]

It's not  just Laughing Gravy (great handle!) that throws out the liberal lefties jibe but it illustrates just how far off target those who do really are.  I am certainly centre (although probably right of it) and most of the people I know are.  In fact I live in the tory heartland where we almost to the man, condemn Trump and his policies.  If anything it is the labour voting areas where Trump gets the most support and the right leaning south east where he gets the most criticism.  Still, that doesn't fit the model that LG and his chums have in their minds and I am afraid that is how it will remain.

[alanrchase]

I have no idea what it has to do with Brexit? Remoaners? The man is obnoxious. Yes, other despots have been entertained but this man outstrips them all. "You can grab their pussy" . Good ice breaker with Elizabeth.

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[dunroaming]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well I'm comforted

 

I think an official visit would have been more appropriate

 

I hope the Lords DO add a couple of amendments

 

1) Give EU citizens the right to remain unilaterally. It WILL be reciprocated and generate goodwill 

 

2) Parliament MUST be allowed to agree the Brexit deal or reject it - ask the people if necessary.

David Davis has admitted that British workers will not be ready (or want) to fill jobs done by European migrants for years and years to come and therefore the UK will keep the doors open for low skilled workers to come to the UK for work.  Reality is obviously kicking in even for Davis himself and it certainly flies in the face of May's position to reduce migrant workers from the EU countries.

 

Good news indeed for those of us who want a balanced and fair Brexit. 

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

It's not  just Laughing Gravy (great handle!) that throws out the liberal lefties jibe but it illustrates just how far off target those who do really are.  I am certainly centre (although probably right of it) and most of the people I know are.  In fact I live in the tory heartland where we almost to the man, condemn Trump and his policies.  If anything it is the labour voting areas where Trump gets the most support and the right leaning south east where he gets the most criticism.  Still, that doesn't fit the model that LG and his chums have in their minds and I am afraid that is how it will remain.

You misspelled chums ?

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You misspelled chums ?

Couldn't find "P" on the keyboard!

[Srikcir]

I hope Trump is invited to Speakers Corner to preach his brand of Alt-right ideology.

Would be a fascinating raw encounter with the British.

[boomerangutang]

6 hours ago, rijb said:

honoring?  It's not personal, just business.

It is an honor, at least in the British subjects' perspective, to be invited to address both houses of Parliament and have tea with the Queen.   Btw, her b'day is April 21, same as mine and John Muir's.  April 21 also falls just between Hitler's and Caesar's birthdays.

[alanrchase]

It is an honor, at least in the British subjects' perspective, to be invited to address both houses of Parliament and have tea with the Queen.   Btw, her b'day is April 21, same as mine and John Muir's.  April 21 also falls just between Hitler's and Caesar's birthdays.

You do understand that we, as British, are no longer subjects? We are citizens. Same as the good ole USA.

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[boomerangutang]

You do understand that we, as British, are no longer subjects? We are citizens. Same as the good ole USA.

 

Actually, I didn't know that. Maybe it's because I've been holed up in a secret bunker in Singapore for the past 70 years subsisting on rations of Bovril and salted beef.   Did we win the war?  Can I be relieved of my post now?  I need a shave and a change of clothes.

[dunroaming]

2 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

 

 

Actually, I didn't know that. Maybe it's because I've been holed up in a secret bunker in Singapore for the past 70 years subsisting on rations of Bovril and salted beef.   Did we win the war?  Can I be relieved of my post now?  I need a shave and a change of clothes.

I would stay where you are if I were you but if you do surface you will find that beards are very much in fashion these days,

[alanrchase]

You do understand that we, as British, are no longer subjects? We are citizens. Same as the good ole USA.

 
Actually, I didn't know that. Maybe it's because I've been holed up in a secret bunker in Singapore for the past 70 years subsisting on rations of Bovril and salted beef.   Did we win the war?  Can I be relieved of my post now?  I need a shave and a change of clothes.



No intention to upset you.

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[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

But to be serious, none of these "democracy" lovers protested when the Chinese dictator, who represents an authoritarian non elected regime, where free speech and democracy are oppressed, where people are persecuted because of their religion or ethnic origin and that occupies another sovereign state by force and is currently expanding in areas the International Courts say it has no rights too. 

There were protests actually and people took to the streets to protest when he arrived.  Mind you that was mainly Chinese nationals and left wing liberals.  I think the petition mustered about 20,000 signatures then.  This time it was quite different and within three days over 1,800,000 signed the petition  There were also demonstrations in London, Birmingham, Manchester and several other cities and towns.  Still this doesn't really matter much because he hasn't actually arrived yet.  Then he will see the full extent of the feeling s of the people in the UK.

[alanrchase]

 
Actually, I didn't know that. Maybe it's because I've been holed up in a secret bunker in Singapore for the past 70 years subsisting on rations of Bovril and salted beef.   Did we win the war?  Can I be relieved of my post now?  I need a shave and a change of clothes.



No intention to upset you.

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Why this post is suggesting I as a rational poster has been holed up in Singapore for 70 odd years I do not know. Mods, sort it out please.

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[Andaman Al]

10 minutes ago, alanrchase said:

 

Why this post is suggesting I as a rational poster has been holed up in Singapore for 70 odd years I do not know. Mods, sort it out please.

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It is doing that because YOU were trying to quote more than one person using your mobile and you porked it up. I am sure if your request to the mods were a little more polite they may assist you.

[alanrchase]

It is doing that because YOU were trying to quote more than one person using your mobile and you porked it up. I am sure if your request to the mods were a little more polite they may assist you.

I did not realise that. I was not trying to do it. Thanks for pointing it out.

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[Retiredandhappyhere]

11 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

As a normal American (i.e., hates Trump) I agree with those who don't want Trump on any state visit. After all, they didn't invite Truman or FDR or even JFK until they'd been in office a while. On the other hand, also as an American, I am not impressed with being "granted" a visit with any ****ing queen. We are not subjects of any monarchy and unlike the self-righteous Canadians, we don't have a state with the name "British" in it.

So, Trump hater,  and British hater as well as not liking the Canadians very much?  Who do you really like?  Come on, do tell!  Presumably, a pretty short list?

[chilli42]

12 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

As a normal American (i.e., hates Trump) I agree with those who don't want Trump on any state visit. After all, they didn't invite Truman or FDR or even JFK until they'd been in office a while. On the other hand, also as an American, I am not impressed with being "granted" a visit with any ****ing queen. We are not subjects of any monarchy and unlike the self-righteous Canadians, we don't have a state with the name "British" in it.

I don't think the Tangerine One will be the slightest bit impressed or greatful either.  This kind of attention stokes his childish ego and sense of self entitlement.  It will do nothing but make the U.K. look weak and desperate.  This guy is a predator and showing him your jugular is only making things worse.

[boomerangutang]

2 hours ago, alanrchase said:

 
Actually, I didn't know that. Maybe it's because I've been holed up in a secret bunker in Singapore for the past 70 years subsisting on rations of Bovril and salted beef.   Did we win the war?  Can I be relieved of my post now?  I need a shave and a change of clothes. No intention to upset you.

No offense taken.  You're response made me grin, so I tried shooting back with a modicum of wit.  Actually, that could be a new TV series:  Each week's episode would take place in some remote location, where a few aging soldiers are holed up, who never got informed that the war they were fighting was over many years prior.  First episode: Finns in Finland, who were never informed that their brothers in arms defeated the Russians, .....and so on.

[boomerangutang]

2 hours ago, alanrchase said:

Why this post is suggesting I as a rational poster has been holed up in Singapore for 70 odd years I do not know. Mods, sort it out please. 

 

You've got to report to your Commanding Officer first, and tell him you're back on the roll call.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, alanrchase said:

 

You do understand that we, as British, are no longer subjects? We are citizens. Same as the good ole USA.

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I didn't know that!

 

I'll go to the foot of our stairs!

 

I did not feel like a subject, more of an object actually!