Tragedy played out on Facebook as sick and uninsured Bangkok expat dies on the way to hospital

[LannaGuy]

11 hours ago, freebyrd said:

Pretty much the same for us Brits. I paid NHI for 20 years, entitles me to nothing in the UK or in Asia once I relocated.

yes it's very, very wrong I'm the same and paid in for FULL term 30 years now I'm here I have written off NHS and got BUPA + make sure I have 500,000 or so in reserve  

[HelenaM]

16 hours ago, machesta said:

Yes, it is sad.

I am from the USA. Been here 5 years. I pay 29,000 bat for one year of Health Insurance. Outpatient not included.

 

I am 68.

May I ask which plan you use for 29000 a year?

[wow64]

What a shock... RIP mate. 

 

Meet him recently a few times and we were discussing his Bike accident.. can't believe it. 

[Confuscious]

20 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Regardless of what you think about him having no insurance, he should have gone to the best and nearest hospital. Doctors swear an oath. 

 

Get treated first and worry later. Life and death should have no price tag.

NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most doctors in Thailand did not signed the oath of Socrates.

 

The only way to get treated in case of urgency is to go to a Governmental hospital.

Governmental hospitals are required to provide everybody the Basic help.
If the treatment should extend beyond the Basic help, a solution can be agreed upon with the hospital.

 

[Thaidream]

I am not suggesting the UN pay for healthcare- this is the responsibility of the country where a person resides. I am suggesting a UN conference of all members in which a reasonable approach to healthcare is discussed and agreed upon.  There are several ways that travellers/non citizen residents could be covered.  The conference could agree to let non citizens buy into their national health scheme; there could be a worldwide small charge on every airline ticket sold that goes into a Worldwide fund; their could be agreement that one country can  bill another countries medical care system. 

If the Un conference could simply agree that health care is a human right and discus the solutions and then implement a plan the World would be much better off than the current systems.

[sunluvr]

20 hours ago, marinediscoking said:

Not sure where you get 250K? Looks to me like a 92 honda cb 400? So you could drop 200K off that estimate. 

 

RIP

apparently not..  another report says:

His motorcycle – a black Yamaha 1200cc with the license plate 1 กฌ 6953 Mahasarakham – was only lightly damaged and remained on the road.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

I do not think that doctor's here,take the Hippocratic oath.

Also the line "first do no harm" was not an original line in the oath.It was added later.but does not strictly apply to the Hippocratic oath.

But i would be happy to be corrected if i am wrong.

[Thaidream]

I am not sure what a 'saucy bleeder' is but I would bet it is the same as we Americans call 'bleeding heart liberal'.  As my British friends would say- I think you are being a bit cheeky.

I will stick by my statements on this subject and I will continue to say that that healthcare is a human right in which if one does not have funds- they must still be treated until well. This concept will not overturn basic economics; cause a collapse of capitalism; or even bankrupt the Nation State. 

Each Government can find the funds to pay for medical care in the same way that most Western nations now obtain the funds. It's called taxation. The taxes paid throughout a person's working life pays for their medical care until death. Except many countries refuse to allow it to work that way. In essence, the Nation State is taking money from its constituents and not providing the full range of needs . The US and UK and other countries refuse to use the already paid taxes of their citizens to fund healthcare wherever their citizens reside even though that healthcare is cheaper. Why? It's called protectionism. In effect, they are telling their citizens they have to stay 'home' to get their paid for benefit. And to make it worse-they refuse to refund the money. Not only are countries not fulfilling their obligation- they are in essence telling us we can't live elsewhere. Those of you who cannot see what countries are doing by pandering to the insurance industry, Big Pharma and large for profit medical institutions are the citizens these countries love. It's call being a sucker. The politicians are stealing our money and using it to their own ends and they could care less whether anyone dies from these policies.

[Telecom66]

3 hours ago, tandor said:

...all the ghouls and vultures gathered..how come no traffic police moving them on..next thing there will be a food cart and T shirt stand setting up there...amazing Thailand.   RIP.

Hey Tandor.

 

While I agree that from our Western perspective it looks like the Thais are treating a dead body as a spectacle - that is actuallt the exact opposite of what they are doing.

 

Please allow me a moment to enlighten TV members as to why Thais do this.

 

Thai's (Buddhism) belive that after you die and the Ceremonial Rights of Cremation are performed, your (soul or spirit) gently rise and floats up with the heat from the Cremation Kiln, to be reborn again with either a higher status if you were good, or with a lower status if you were bad. That is why there is a week of daily "Bathing Rites" at the temple to cleanse the spirit of all the pollution and baggage from this life, prior to cremation. This is the exact reasons why Thai's often treat soi dogs like their own.

 

The cremated ashes are a physical reminder for your loved ones - but the Cremation Ceremony is where what we in the western world refer to as out "Spirit" or "Soul" is uplifted for Buddha to return to earth in a new form as he sees fit.

 

Therefore, when a Thai comes apon an accident where there are dead body's, there is a sense of duty to help see the spirit on to the next stage safely. It is seen as disrespectful to leave the scene of an accident before the bodies have been removed. If it is a Thai cadaver, some people will pay their respects and move on early, because they feel that a Thai spirit has been taught Buddhism and understands the journey and where it needs to go.

 

When the Thai's see a Farang cadaver, they believe that it's spirit will not understand the  Buddha spirit that is about to take it by the hand and help safely ferry the Farang spirit back to their own god. I use the term "Ferry" because it is a similar belief in Christian traditions to put coins on the eyes or in the mouth of the cadaver prior to burial to "pay the Ferryman". While it may seem that they stop and gawk, they actually have a sense of duty from their Buddha teachings to stay until the Farang spirit has safely been ferried to the next level. Typically this is either an Ambulance, Medical Examiners vehicle, or the Community Foundatiion Ambulances. 

 

That is why the first responders that responds to a cadaver, look like they are performing religous rituals prior to collecting the body. They are merely preparing the spirit to commence it's journey to a new life.

 

So next time you see Thai's "stopping and gawking", see it as a sign of respect to the deceased - not as a sideshow. Yes they will be laughing and smiling. For the Thai's, the spirit has the opportunity to go on to better things - and that is a cause for celebration.

 

Thai's are actually celebrating at a funeral, even though it is a very somber and highly emotial time. Everyone still mourns the loss of loved ones and cries. But all the rituals you see are a celebration and transition of the spirit to the next life.

 

If I was Christian's family and friends, I would be Thanking them for overseeing the safe transfer of Christian's spirit at a time when they could not be there to do it themselves.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Telecom66
Spellin Corrections and ommited a line that was poorly worded and could have been misinterpreted in a negative way!!

[jenifer d]

20 hours ago, humqdpf said:

It is always sad to hear that someone thought it was ok to come to a foreign country and engage in a highly risky activity like motorcycle riding without the benefit of any medical insurance.

 

 

it is TRULY much sadder still that you and so many others here on TVF are passing scornful judgement on this unfortunate man for the fact that he didn't have insurance- save your pedantic rantings and keep your own nose clean- and don't expect any other person in the entire world to adhere to YOUR "standards", "morals", etc etc etc ad nauseum

 

i am starting to avoid reading many comments here on TVF, the sense of whiny entitlement and judgement coupled with the latent colonialism of many of the commenters is saddening to say the least...

 

 

[maewang99]

don't stay here without private cover. 

you can pay your hospital bills.... but we ****all**** need a currently paid up insurance ID card so that we can be admitted... unless you are Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates.  they don't know how much dough you have at the admit desk otherwise.  End of story.

and it's not expensive.  but ****know**** that the only company (the data is on line at the Insurance Dept) that really offers it (Thai company).... is based on a reputation that you must be a paying customer before age 60 or so. 


 

Edited February 26, 2017 by maewang99

[Telecom66]

10 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

I do not think that doctor's here,take the Hippocratic oath.

Also the line "first do no harm" was not an original line in the oath.It was added later.but does not strictly apply to the Hippocratic oath.

But i would be happy to be corrected if i am wrong.

Hey Khon Kaen Dave.

 

Extract from Post 212 on Page 9:

 

You are wrong about your assumptions of the Hypocratic Oath here in Thailand.
 
In Thalaind there are 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath. Different medical Universities swear to their preferred version.
 
However, NONE of the 3 different versions of the Hypocratic Oath are as strongly worded in commitment as the Oath in Western Standards.
 
The closest is the version heralded by the late King - which is only sworn to by Doctors graduating from Mahidol University. Hence the reason why the late King always went to the Hospital that is run and staffed by Mahidol University.
 
The majority of Doctors here in Thailand swear on the Oath "I will always try my best to do my best".
 
Additionally, it takes massive misconduct for a Doctor here to be struck off the register. That is not to say it does not happen - just that it takes so much time and money to prove misconduct that the average Thai's just give up, accept, and do not rock the boat.
 
Besides, you are just as likely to be sued by the Doctor for defamation in retaliation!!

 

[gdgbb]

14 hours ago, starfish said:

Yep, but In a certain moment in his life he had had this situation, whatever the cause, it could be Depression, or Alkoholism, these are illnesses, you know, where one does not act rationally.

I've no idea why you're addressing that to me but since you raised it how would this man's speculative depression or alcoholism (that he didn't suffer from as far as anyone knows) contribute to a severely infected leg?

[ajarngreg]

16 minutes ago, jenifer d said:

it is TRULY much sadder still that you and so many others here on TVF are passing scornful judgement on this unfortunate man for the fact that he didn't have insurance- save your pedantic rantings and keep your own nose clean- and don't expect any other person in the entire world to adhere to YOUR "standards", "morals", etc etc etc ad nauseum

 

i am starting to avoid reading many comments here on TVF, the sense of whiny entitlement and judgement coupled with the latent colonialism of many of the commenters is saddening to say the least...

 

 

 

 

 

   + 1. It's a shame that some posters here do not even understand that the guy had his motorcycle insurance plus the Thai SS.

 

         

Edited February 26, 2017 by ajarngreg

[kiwikeith]

21 hours ago, Casanova666 said:

Can u get a big motorbike though 

I would like to know if his bike received a nudge from another vehicle, probably never know, but I do know that the shoulder is used as an extra lane and it is a very dangerous place to be as lunatics use it to weave through traffic.

Very sad RIP .

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Telecom66

Thank you for that.

When i said that they didnt take the Hippocratic Oath,i meant that it wasn't the one that the doctors take in the western countries,as you have said.I was not aware,however,that there were 3 here,or that the preferred oath was the one from Mahidol.(I did my Thai Culture certificate there)

As for proving misconduct or incompetence,you are correct on that score.There was a post a few years ago on here,where a woman went to her doctor in Khon Kaen asking for advice on what contraception to use,  as she was 40 years old and marrying a foreigner, in his 60's The Doctor,apparently an educated, intelligent man of medicine actually told her that, there would no need for contraception as 'foreign men over 60, cannot produce children' Had she believed him, i hardly think that the Doctor would have admitted his opinion.Nor do i think that he should never apply to the courts as a possible candidate for being a specialist,should any lawyer would need to call one, in a case.

 

 

[paulbj2]

Not sure about this theatrical Hippocratic oath business. I have had this discussion with doctors from the UK and they all said they never took any such oath; "what are you talking about" is their usual reaction. Maybe this is something some countries do, others not.

[Thaidream]

No doctor or nurse or anyone in the healthcare business needs to have an oath administered to be able to understand it is their duty and responsibility to provide healthcare and administer to the ill until well regardless of money; race; creed etc.  It's called basic morality and if they don't know this they need to get out of the profession.

[marinediscoking]

21 hours ago, fstarbkk said:

No money for health insurance, but riding around on a THB 250K motorcycle. Priorities?

 

21 hours ago, marinediscoking said:

Not sure where you get 250K? Looks to me like a 92 honda cb 400? So you could drop 200K off that estimate. 

 

RIP

 

3 hours ago, djayz said:

My sentiments exactly!

 

1 hour ago, sunluvr said:

apparently not..  another report says:

His motorcycle – a black Yamaha 1200cc with the license plate 1 กฌ 6953 Mahasarakham – was only lightly damaged and remained on the road.

After checking the facebook page the bike was a 1995 -1999 Yamaha XJR1200 so top end he might of got 100K but even selling an old bike like that heavily discounted would be hard to sell. 

 

I don't think he realized the severity of his infection until later, but had it been me I would have figured out a way to get home.

[dageurreotype]

20 hours ago, natway09 said:

Very sad .

Every time something like this comes up we get the same blah blah about health insurance.

For the more cautious of you take the time to find out the exact circumstances should the need arise

for finding say 1.4 mil Bht for emergency treatment & (or unavoidable confinement) with insurance or cash.

Its all very well to blame hospitals here but why should they or the Government be responsible for a non tax paying

expat who is unprepared & underfunded?

Has anybody talked to a hospital group here & suggested paying say  5,000 Bht a month on your account?

 

It's all very well saying 'unprepared and underfunded' but shit happens and it's a fact that hospitals here charge foreigners significantly more than any local. How many times have we read about foreigners being charged ridiculous amounts ten fold or more than they would be charged anywhere else on the planet? Thai hospitals are mills and it's getting worse no matter how many posters will pop up with 'well my heart attack only cost me 100 baht'. BTW, I'd mentioned a guy I'd run across sitting on a bike in a nearby soi who'd relayed a tale of woe regards being let down by some Thai tart and not having any money left to get his leg treated. The infection was exactly the same as that shown in the posted photo. I'd told him to 'go home' but he'd told me he hadn't the money for a ticket and his embassy (British) wouldn't help. Some people just won't be told. Don't know what happened to him and frankly don't care. He seemed more concerned with aforesaid TT.

 

Agree with Universal health treatment for all though. They can always find money for a war can't they. As my grandma used to say.

[Torfan]

22 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Regardless of what you think about him having no insurance, he should have gone to the best and nearest hospital. Doctors swear an oath. 

 

Get treated first and worry later. Life and death should have no price tag.

AS a expat doctor Living in Buriram I know that the oath you are talking about is the Hippocrates oath. Thai doctors have never heard about Hippocrates. 

[ajarngreg]

1 minute ago, marinediscoking said:

 

 

 

After checking the facebook page the bike was a 1995 -1999 Yamaha XJR1200 so top end he might of got 100K but even selling an old bike like that heavily discounted would be hard to sell. 

 

I don't think he realized the severity of his infection until later, but had it been me I would have figured out a way to get home.

 

 

 There's an organization called DHV that would have helped him for sure. It's sad that he didn't get in touch with them. Their main office is in Bangkok.

 

          If friends of Christian know that he'd been at their office and they refused to help him, please page me.

  

 

      

[ajarngreg]

3 minutes ago, Torfan said:

AS a expat doctor Living in Buriram I know that the oath you are talking about is the Hippocrates oath. Thai doctors have never heard about Hippocrates. 

 

 

 But they all know who Hello Kitty is.....

[Dustdevil]

15 hours ago, redwinecheese said:

What about basic human right needs like affordable healthcare for everybody everywhere.

That would be good too.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, ajarngreg said:

 

 Thanks for posting this. It fully explains what happened. It seems that he focused on the slower bike in front of him getting ready to take the curve.

 

 

I don't quite follow that. By the time you finally see he and his bike at the far left edge of the video, the bike already scraping along the edge of the overpass wall and then he's going over the side. What caused his bike to go into the side wall isn't shown on the video, as far as I can see.

 

The side area certain appears wide enough to accommodate a motorcycle, and it didn't look like the car with the dashcam was crowding to the left and edging the guy into the overpass retaining wall. So to me, the video tells me how he died (going over the side) -- but not why.

 

[LannaGuy]

9 minutes ago, ajarngreg said:

 

 But they all know who Hello Kitty is.....

 

9 minutes ago, ajarngreg said:

 

 But they all know who Hello Kitty is.....

The Hello Kitty oath?

 

anyway no doctor, these days, uses the Hippocratic Oath 

Edited February 26, 2017 by LannaGuy

[paulbj2]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't quite follow that. By the time you finally see he and his bike at the far left edge of the video, the bike already scraping along the edge of the overpass wall and then he's going over the side. What caused his bike to go into the side wall isn't shown on the video, as far as I can see.

 

The side area certain appears wide enough to accommodate a motorcycle, and it didn't look like the car with the dashcam was crowding to the left and edging the guy into the overpass retaining wall. So to me, the video tells me how he died (going over the side) -- but not why.

 

What we can't see is whether the car with the dash-cam or another vehicle behind it started indicating left and that caused our unfortunate rider to instinctively swerve left.

[ajarngreg]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't quite follow that. By the time you finally see he and his bike at the far left edge of the video, the bike already scraping along the edge of the overpass wall and then he's going over the side. What caused his bike to go into the side wall isn't shown on the video, as far as I can see.

 

The side area certain appears wide enough to accommodate a motorcycle, and it didn't look like the car with the dashcam was crowding to the left and edging the guy into the overpass retaining wall. So to me, the video tells me how he died (going over the side) -- but not why.

 

 

Sorry, I was only assuming that I know what happened. It seems that he focused on the slower scooter in front of him, getting ready to take the curve when his tires hit the pavement. 

[Anthony Loh]

Feel so sorry about this man! ? and this is Thailand, no money no talk for all foreign. To me the hospital should have help safe his life first and making him pay later. ( don't he have a wife, gf or any good friends to help him? ) I always try my best to help my foreign friends if they are in this kind of situation. To me is " we have to help a friend if he need help from us and that what's we call a good friend " .

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

What we can't see is whether the car with the dash-cam or another vehicle behind it started indicating left and that caused our unfortunate rider to instinctively swerve left.

 

Obviously don't know about any cars or anything else behind the dash cam vehicle. But if you look at the path of the dash cam vehicle on the road and its relation to the white painted shoulder line on the road, it doesn't appear to me that the dash cam vehicle was edging to the left in any way.

 

Or by "indicating left" do you mean turning on their left turn signal?  Using turn signals here for lane changes doesn't appear especially common. Nor was there room on the shoulder area (between the white line and the retaining wall) to accommodate a full size car. Nor did it seem that the dashcam vehicle was running up on the car in front so close that they'd need to go around. So not sure about that.

Edited February 26, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK