Time Up For Some 30 Day Visa Runners

[MartinBKK]

I would like to know how Thailand is number 1 for tourism? Do you mean they ranked number 1 in a survey of satisfied tourists?

If you are talking volume then Thailand ranks way below the United States. You may be interested to know the state of Florida alone recieves well over 1 million visitors per annum.

NB. I see now you mention value for money - my appologies for misreading. It is the volume that is the most important to an economy however it is true to say that satisfied tourists will likely return.

Edited December 19, 2006 by MartinBKK

[pheonix]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

i think that all the foreiners that are in thailand are needed even the ones doing the monthly visa runs they continue to support the comunity around them most foreingersspend so much more than the thai people and create business opertunities.

[bangkokgas]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

i think that all the foreiners that are in thailand are needed even the ones doing the monthly visa runs they continue to support the comunity around them most foreingersspend so much more than the thai people and create business opertunities.

Just a note here. two friends with quite a few tourist visas in their books were issued another tourist visa with no problems in Laos yesterday.

[Artisan]

Just a note here. two friends with quite a few tourist visas in their books were issued another tourist visa with no problems in Laos yesterday.

Thats' because the crunch comes at the end of next week. By "tourist visa" do you really mean a 30-day entry stamp? Entry stamps are issued in Thailand.

If you mean a genuine "Tourist Visa", issued this time in Ventiane, then there's no problem.

[Phil_Pattaya]

It seems intuitively correct. However, your point is overshadowed by the question of how considerable (or inconsiderable) the amount brought into the Thai economy by resident tourists and tourist-tourists actually is. Is there any reliable data I wonder? Without such data, this is all speculation. Apparently the Thai gov feels that the benefits of restricting resident tourists and others outweighs the financial benefits.

That's quite true. Nobody knows this number with any degree of certainty. The speculation runs the gamut from it's so little money that losing it would have no effect whatsoever on the Thai economy to Thailand will fall apart without the money that foireigners spend. Truth is obviously somewhere in between these two poles and it's really anybody's guess.

PS - To all of the tax fans on this thread, I would not suggest for a moment that the Thai government wouldn't love to see foreigners contribute more to the tax base (simply because they want to fill the coffers). My point is that to conclude that by making a minimal contribution to Thai gov't tax revenues, this somehow equates to foreigners spending habits having a negligible effect on the overall Thai economy is bogus.

This is what I was trying to say but you have said better than I did.

I hate the way some of the posters on here who dont quite understand what you are trying to say then go and make up what they want, be rude and start a new argument ( for example not once did I mention the ecomomy).

Add remedial English 101 to the list then.

I cannot be bothered to read all your drivel again, but methinks you have mentioned the economy directly or indirectly more than once.

Dweeb

I cannot believe how arrogant and rude you are. This forum does not belong to you and you should give people a chance. You should also read about Manners 101. What a sad world if everyone agreed with what you thought was right.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Phil_Pattaya

[LivinLOS]

This is why LOS needs stricter laws and enforce them! Remember this is like the wild east now (like for 150 some years back, it was for the wild west) But those days are soon coming to an end, and we (the non-criminal type) are all better for it!

How/why are you so sure you'll be "all better for it!"?

What is your visa status?

I hope for you you are either:

-above 50 with 800,000 in the bank

-married to a Thai with 40,000/month income for your couple

-running a business and paying yourself 50,000/m at least + paying 4 Thais

-employed with a salary above 50,000

Nothing of the above?

Basically: You can go home.

I hope you don't believe like some Roger here that "decency" is the key??? :-0...

I'm just asking. Don't take it personally. Just for the sake of the discussion. I do not assume anything.

You'll tell me you are one (or more) of the above: fine.

I just mean that a lot of folks here seem to believe in mantras and wishful thinking...

I first arrived here in 1993. I basically regarded all the previous ""shake-ups" of visa regulations as "another scare" indeed.

Generally: only yearly extensions of stay were concerned anyway. Now, under the radar of the Thai Immigration (or Ministry of Foreign Affairs) is also the issuance of visas and "VOA".

This time is different. Things definitely changed on 01/10/2006!

And yes! Dr Dweeb above is right:

The new laws have dienfranchised LOTS of people who now have no legal way to remain in the country and support their children. This change in laws is way bigger than the 30 day visa run issue.

Indeed. THERE IS NO MORE CHILD SUPPORT provision in the Thai Immigration Law since 01/10/2006

As a Farang father/mother of a Thai Child BELOW 50: you are NO-THING if not married.

If interested:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97178

//Edit to remove moderation issues per forum rules - lopburi3//

I keep reading these posts from you..

I am not sure I follow.. My buddy has a Thai kid (his) and the mother is gone.. He gets a non imm O on the basis of supporting a Thai dependant..

Not sure how much money he had to show..

[Maestro]

LivinLOS, those unmarried fathers who prior to October 1 already had an approved extension for support of Thai child can continue to get it on the same terms as before. It is not in the new rules, but that’s how Immigration is handling it according to first-hand reports, also by Sunbelt.

--

Maestro

[LivinLOS]

No as I answered the poster in other threads hes totally flying at the wrong rules IMO..

If you are a farang here you can get another farang here on a dependant visa.. Your wife (if shes under 50 and your over 50) on the same 800k..

You can also have your kid here (providing they are unmarried and under 20) as a dependant on your non imm basis..

You can also bring a parent here (providing they are over 50) on your non imm basis (say you were working.. You could bring an over 50 and instead of them doing a retirement visa they could be a dependant on yours and your assets / status)...

These rules are about bring a farang dependant into Thailand.. Not supporting a Thai dependant.

All IMO but it all seems perfectly logical, fits what was written, and exactly how I understood the rules about bringing your farang kids here if you were retired.

[LivinLOS]

Just in case I am not being clear.. There is a vast difference between getting a dependant visa (where the farang is the dependant) to getting a support visa (also perhaps classed as 'dependency visa' but the other way around) to take care of a Thai dependant.

One has farangs giving money to Thais.. Lets guess which one will be left alone..

[DrDweeb]

Let's face it, the go-go bars in Bangkok are boring now. A lot of the usual winter visitors who rent cheap apts. don't even come anymore. This is a trend that will continue.

They have been more than replaced by thousands more couples and singles from Northern Europe who are buying condos and houses like crazy in the likes of Hua Hin, Phuket, Pattaya area. I was recently thru Issan and farangs are acquiring land and building houses in areas they've never been before. The foreign resident population is increasing dramatically and, if you reboot your computer and walk and talk to real people you will come to the conclusion that this is but the first wave. True, a few long timers who came here over the years will leave. But that will not affect the numbers who stay in any dramatic way.

Well, that (farangs buying house/land everywhere) was true until the mooted changes in the administration of the companies law with respect to nominees and ownership of land by such companies being used as a vehicle for house ownership.

Foreigners cannot own land, period, only Thais and Thai registered companies (not sure about US companies, there is a special agreement for that). There are rules regarding Thai registered companies that have previously been openly flaunted and there are mooted changes in the administration of the government controls on Thai companies to change this. Home ownership based on Thai company land ownership is rather risky at the moment.

Of course the gf/wife can own land - which is what many have done and some have regretted.

There is leasing and there are some other tricky ways, but all of them have some hole in them somewhere which is potentially a large risk.

Generally, however your point holds, as I have also seen the expat population grow from essentially zero in Hua Hin to a substantial full time community. Same goes other places I am sure. Whether the growth in this area offsets the loss of people who will fall through the cracks of the new regulations is an unknown - but it is not an unlikely scenario.

Dweeb

[DrDweeb]

I would like to know how Thailand is number 1 for tourism? Do you mean they ranked number 1 in a survey of satisfied tourists?

If you are talking volume then Thailand ranks way below the United States. You may be interested to know the state of Florida alone recieves well over 1 million visitors per annum.

NB. I see now you mention value for money - my appologies for misreading. It is the volume that is the most important to an economy however it is true to say that satisfied tourists will likely return.

http://www.thailandoutlook.com/NR/rdonlyre...yofThailand.pdf

12million in 2004

Dweeb

[mitrapaap]

I think the value of the western farang is about to be understood.

The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

i think that all the foreiners that are in thailand are needed even the ones doing the monthly visa runs they continue to support the comunity around them most foreingersspend so much more than the thai people and create business opertunities.

And because all of these foreigners spending so much money the prices around them go up and up - which is not a big help for the Thais and their economy. Actually the foreign companies overpaying their Thai staff because they can't think local because they never could live like Thais live is damaging the labor market considerably if you look from a Thai employer view point.

[realthaideal]

"The value of the western farang who comes here to do legitimate business or has the financial resources to obtain a retirement visa or comes as a tourist is already understood and Thailand continues to welcome them.

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home."

More harsh tones from kaojai. Sure you are safe, and easily categorized. There still remain several people not easily categorized by VISA reg's, and then there are those who are not being looked after by their employers.

Such is the case for many of my teacher friends who now see that schools aren't willing/ able/ organized enough to get them their work permits and visas, these good people who love the Thai people and teach them, making direct contributions to their society, they are going to be left high and dry. Many friends feeling screwed now that the 11th hour has arrived and promises are proving hollow. The regualtions are perhaps real. The promises false. But I doubt it has to do with resources and worthiness as you continue to imply or even state directly in your sharp posts.

[classic-chassis]

don't really know the value of my comments, but reading both this thread and the other regarding farang visas now being as hard to obtain as a US or UK for an asian brings 2 points to my mind.

first, visas for farangs are a lot more difficult to obtain, or should i say the "rights" for example if jonny somchai was married to an American he would have very little prolem entering and staying in the good old US of A and even becoming a citizen. the same applies for the UK.

where as, as a husband or father in the LOS you will never be more than a guest in the said country(as the law stands now, however some hint it could soon change).

if you are on a never ending tourist visa, your time is up and rightly so if thailand is to truly be considered a developing country, after all you can't stay as a tourist in the US.

regarding business not being welcom is pure folly, businesses are welcome, with open arms in fact. if the farang owner invests 40mill is he not able to own a rai for domestic perposes??

and to say farang business is bad for thailand because it pushes the wages up so the thaiu bosses need to pay their staff o little more.....progress is the word you need and it goes hand in hand with development.

[papakapbaan]

first, visas for farangs are a lot more difficult to obtain, or should i say the "rights" for example if jonny somchai was married to an American he would have very little prolem entering and staying in the good old US of A and even becoming a citizen. the same applies for the UK.

where as, as a husband or father in the LOS you will never be more than a guest in the said country(as the law stands now, however some hint it could soon change).

if you are on a never ending tourist visa, your time is up and rightly so if thailand is to truly be considered a developing country, after all you can't stay as a tourist in the US.

That's what I keep saying.

Sure. No problem with Thailand not allowing perpetual tourists or 30 days VOAs to stay forever. Logical.

But in the same time, they must make it MUCH easier for legitimate long term stay! Currently we really have an OYSTER POLICY.

-For spouses (financial requirements constantly increased)

-For foreign parents of Thai nationals (not allowed below 50 anymore if unmarried)

-For businesses (pay yourself 10 times the average national salary + pay 4 Thais)

Edited December 21, 2006 by papakapbaan

[JensHauswirth]

Stamps or days? Wait and see Lopburi, wait and see......

Actually and fo sure days. My business partner (European) entered Thailand since October about 6 times, always for 3 to 5 days. NO PROBLEM.

Means: play according to the rules and everything works out fine

this is a welcome news.

it clarified matters. thanks.

[phillip2006]

The western farang who hasn't the resources to do anything other than scurry across the border every 30 days before returning to some work that generates minimal income but no foreign exchange is also understood, which is why they want them to go home.

Why does everyone assume that Visa runners have no cash. I spend alot out here every month. I think the local thai economy will a notice if all the visa runners leave the country. Its not the effect of one person leaving its the accumaltive effect of the whole group. For example lets say very visa runner is on a budget and is staying in a cheap room for 6000 baht a month. Then there is living cost say 200 baht a day for food. We have no money so we only go out twice a month spending 6000 baht on those two nights. Thats 18000 baht a month. So thats 18000 baht a month multiplied by the number of visa runners. It wont effect the national thai economy that much but it will effect the local economy.

If the visa runners are forced 2 leave it will show maybe not during peak season but it low it will show. Maybe I am wrong I dont know but we are all going 2 find out soon enough.

[tartempion]

I guess it has been said many times: the loosers will the small thai businesses, guest houses, small shops and restaurants, motorbike renters etc (the rich will get richer regardless) and who cares for the poor thai anyway? Certainly not the so hard wanted "good tourists" or the thai rulers.

[thaihome]

I would like to know how Thailand is number 1 for tourism? Do you mean they ranked number 1 in a survey of satisfied tourists?

If you are talking volume then Thailand ranks way below the United States. You may be interested to know the state of Florida alone recieves well over 1 million visitors per annum.

NB. I see now you mention value for money - my appologies for misreading. It is the volume that is the most important to an economy however it is true to say that satisfied tourists will likely return.

You might have degree in economics, but you sure flunk research. Florida had some 83 million tourists in 2005, over 4 million of them from overseas.

TH

[MartinBKK]

I would like to know how Thailand is number 1 for tourism? Do you mean they ranked number 1 in a survey of satisfied tourists?

If you are talking volume then Thailand ranks way below the United States. You may be interested to know the state of Florida alone recieves well over 1 million visitors per annum.

NB. I see now you mention value for money - my appologies for misreading. It is the volume that is the most important to an economy however it is true to say that satisfied tourists will likely return.

You might have degree in economics, but you sure flunk research. Florida had some 83 million tourists in 2005, over 4 million of them from overseas.

TH

Hmmmm - i think the majority of members here will consider posts such as yours unhelpful and irrelevant to this thread. If they will excuse me for a moment though whilst i point out to thaihome that this topic is about visas. I was obviously referring to international tourists seeing domestic visitors do not need a visa to travel to Florida and i would think 4 million would be considered by most to be "well over a million". I actually got my information from a tourist magazine that i had retained from a visit in 2002. Appologies for not keeping upto date however like most of the members here I have better things to do than look up that sort of thing on the internet.

Kind of pedantic don't you think?

[Jingjok]

But I’ve given up. I bought a beautiful place in KL last week - stunning finishing quality. MM2H scheme: long visas, freehold ownership, fluent English, variety, culture, efficient banks, no tax on offshore income, import one car tax free, better food everywhere and cheaper with it. Sorry Thailand, there’s not enough here for me anymore.

You only alluded to the best bit. YOU bought the property in YOUR name 100% owned by YOU.

For fifteen years I've been working towards retiring to Thailand, I can more than qualify now but a few more years work will increase my quality of living by a nice margin, but I'm now looking around seriously at the options.

Let's face it, no matter what are, or are not, the rules now and how they are, or are not, interpreted or implemented it could all change next year or the year after or whenever another bunch of generals want to run their tanks out again. Or another half ar5ed bunch of clowns get themselves elected and hijack the country for their own ends. So you are constantly living on the edge wondering when the next sweeping reform of visa conditions will be launched or what the next immigration official's local interpretation of the existing rules will be.

Quite a few posts on this thread have talked about how the regulations can be circumvented in various ways. Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread, and many others, exist purely because the Thai authorites have decided to withdraw a circumvention route from the field of play. So whatever new method you come up with they may, at any time of their choosing, withdraw that option too.

Agree with both of these views. But I wouldn't be so confident in KL either. You don't see an ethnic timebomb there? Show me a developing country where religious/ethnic groups have live side by side 'peacefully' and I'll show you a country where it is being done by heavy-handed rules to keep it that way (e.g. Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Indonesia, north-east africa, -- and don't forget Iraq -- or even Canada/Quebec for that matter!). It's never real 'harmony' it's almost always a forced marriage.. that one day can result in the wife with a pair of scissors out for revenge.

If some one wants to choose Malaysia over Thailand for a retirement home, that is up to them, but don't think you are not subject to capricious changes there as well. As stated above, Malaysia is a schizophrenic time bomb with a clock that is ticking louder and louder.

TH

It’s hard to disagree entirely. My policy is not to invest more in any of these countries than I can walk away from, and I’d advise anyone to do the same: don’t burn bridges, ever.

As to Malaysia, I am no expert on Malay/Chinese/Indian political or economic relations, or the probability of their government’s long term success in curbing militant Islam. But what I do know is that no one blows up buses in the capital, as they do in my home country, which puts much into perspective.

What really matters to me and has the greatest impact on anyone’s day-to-day happiness is one’s ordinary contact with ordinary people, bureaucracy and businesses. In my personal experience (and no one can reliably report beyond that) I do not find the anti-foreigner sentiment that I often feel in Thailand, nor am I irritated by the perception of constantly being ripped off.

Edited December 27, 2006 by Jingjok

[friend2]

In southern Thailand (Yala province), the ethnic tensions are far worse than they are in Malaysia.

They actually bomb police stations and burn down schools there.

I wouldn't wanna live there.

If I did, I might as well paint a big red X on my chest.

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

Edited December 28, 2006 by friend2

[toptuan]

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

Why not colonized by the Yanks?

[rexall]

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

Why not colonized by the Yanks?

E X C U S E M E E !!! Yanks do NOT colonize people! We either steal their land fair & square . . . or we destroy their culture with McDonalds, Marlboros and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies!

I'll be back!

Aloha,

Rex

[libya 115]

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

Why not colonized by the Yanks?

Philippines?

[longway]

In southern Thailand (Yala province), the ethnic tensions are far worse than they are in Malaysia.

They actually bomb police stations and burn down schools there.

I wouldn't wanna live there.

If I did, I might as well paint a big red X on my chest.

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

or maybe the french

im sure stealing everything that wasnt nailed down and sending it to london would hv really benefitted the thais. but i guess thaksin did that anyway.

[thai_narak]

Deep down, sometimes I feel this country would have been much better of if it been colonialised by the brits.

Not just for our sake, but for the Thais as well.

Why not colonized by the Yanks?

Philippines?

Philippines was colonized by the spaniards and liberated by the yanks but raped by the japs in between...

[thaihome]

Here we are 18 pages on and no conclusion.

I predict that that the 90/180 day rule for visa exempt and 40k income for married will have a no effect on the Thai economy. It will effect a statistically minuscule number of people that cannot (or will not) figure out another way to stay long term in Thailand.

TH

[friend2]

It's quite amazing how naive most Thais are voting Thaksin into power,

considering the facts.

70% (figure can vary depending on where you take your stats from) of thais support themself with agriculture.

Thaksin's policys, undoubtedly lowered most crop values by opening up the borders

to the market forces. (almost all subsidies gone).

Still, all it took, was to waver that "30 baht healthcare" and the "One tambon one product"

scheme under their noses for them to vote for him....

Many thais ran to the agricultural bank to take loans as Thaksin put aside lots of money for them to do so.

It was supposed to be used for agricultural purposes.

Now you know why so many Thais are driving brand new vehicles.

Lots and lots of Thais are today having problems paying back those loans. as crop prices

continue to fall.

(sorry, little bit out of topic here)

Edited December 28, 2006 by friend2

[thaigene2]

Interesting arguments. Both sides of the farang-tourist-money-is-important-versus-not-important argument and the 'our-tax-money-going into-coffers' argument has been hashed out here many times before. I think while both sides are right in their views the main thing that isn't taken into account is that taxation etc isn't really an issue nor is some condo/visa rule.

Consider that if it was, there would be systematic collection and enforcement of income taxes. An agency would also enforce collection from smaller businesses of VAT/GST.

So why isn't it? The super-cynical view (of mine) is that nothing ever happens here (legislation, infratructure, et, etc) unless someone in authority (read influence and money types) have hacthed a scheme to make money out of it.

Still think the stock market crash was a 'stupid mistake'? I always try to ask myself 'who gains' when something seemingly inadvertent occurs. Rich Thais did very well out of that stampede for the doors by foreigners.

Thailand is and in living memory always has been run for the benefit of an exclusive group of very rich families with a collective society of mass-public that seem blissfully unaware.

In that scenario your very logical arguments mean very little.