Whey powder, casein protein etc - do I need these?

[simon43]

In my other recent thread, I explained how I'm trying to get rid of my body flab, especially around my middle.

 

To date:

 

- I'm now cycling about 20 Km every day (to/from work)

- I'm following a home-based exercise regime on my Android phone.  This is a full-body work-out routine that gradually increases the number of reps etc.  I'm quite happy with this routine.

- I've changed my diet to eat more veg and fruit, cut out rice etc etc

 

After about 4 weeks, I feel much healthier and fitter, can see a reduction in my body fat, a slight reduction in my weight (not so important), and an increase in the size of my puny upper-body muscles.

 

Now I've just found a very good hotel gym down the road which I can use a couple of times a week.  I'm interested to use gym weight-training equipment to try to put some tone on my flabby stomach, arms and chest area.

 

I need to Google for a gym training program that will improve those area of my body.

 

But I also found one of those body-building supplement shops in the local shopping centre.  It sells a wide range of whey and casein products, as well as others that I haven't yet checked out.

 

My question - If I start a modest gym weight-training program to put some tone onto my upper body and to increase my puny muscle size, would it be advantageous to use any of these products?

 

 

[rijb]

My understanding is that protein supplements are a good way to satisfy your protein needs, with less calories than food.  

 

I use them sometimes.  But, they make me sleepy.

[Hutch68]

No just keep doing what you are doing.

[akirasan]

How on point is your diet?  

How many calories are you eating each day?  Do you know how many calories you're supposed to be eating each day?

If you create a calorie deficiency you will lose weight.

You mentioned you are interested in gym/weights training.

Rather than targeting specific body parts you're better off doing a full body workout 3 times a week.  

By that I mean lots of compound lifts.  Squats, deadlifts, bent over rows, military press etc.

It is entirely possibly to meet your goal of gaining lean muscle mass while cutting fat, but you need to pay close attention to your diet in able to do that. 

I'd sort your diet out before adding a protein supplement.  It's entirely possible that you're already getting enough.  Most people consume too much protein as it is.  

Edited March 4, 2017 by akirasan

[bkkgriz]

You don't need protein supplements, but you will find them helpful in building muscle. Whey protein is good right after weight training and casein is good at night because it is a slow release protein. If you want to put on more lean muscle, you need to up your protein intake. It could be from food or supplements. I've often read that you need one gram of protein for each pound of body weight to increase muscle mass. So unless you intend to eat a lot of protein during the day, protein powders can help you increase protein intake without eating massive amounts of food. But as they say in LOS, up to you.

[alfieconn]

1 hour ago, akirasan said:

How on point is your diet?  

How many calories are you eating each day?  Do you know how many calories you're supposed to be eating each day?

If you create a calorie deficiency you will lose weight.

You mentioned you are interested in gym/weights training.

Rather than targeting specific body parts you're better off doing a full body workout 3 times a week.  

By that I mean lots of compound lifts.  Squats, deadlifts, bent over rows, military press etc.

It is entirely possibly to meet your goal of gaining lean muscle mass while cutting fat, but you need to pay close attention to your diet in able to do that. 

I'd sort your diet out before adding a protein supplement.  It's entirely possible that you're already getting enough.  Most people consume too much protein as it is.  

Sorry, don't agree especially if the guy is older.

 

A. Doing a full body workout means that by the time you come to do the last 2 or 3 exercises all energy has been depleted therefore them body parts are not        getting  a full workout.

 

B.  Full body workout 3  times a week is not enough recovery time between workout's, major bodyparts need at least 4 or 5 days to recuperate.

[simon43]

Thanks for your advice.  Due to work/time constraints, I can only go to the gym on Saturday and Sunday.  On Monday - Friday, I cycle every day and follow a home exercise, all-body regime, which is slowly ramping up the reps.

 

My diet as discussed in another thread, is calorie deficient, and I am slowly losing weight.  I typically eat 2 salads a day, a little chicken, lots of fruit, some nuts, raisins, green tea.

 

When I read the stories on the body-building websites about flabby guys transforming their bodies into muscle-bound warriors, (which BTW, I don't want to do), I note that they are all eating several servings of lean chicken or meat every day, and also taking supplements (whey, casein etc).

 

I do want to improve my abs, chest and arms, where the tone is currently not good, with puny muscles!  I know that only going to the gym 2 consecutive days each week is far from ideal, but I teach in the weekday evenings and it is not possible to change my schedule.

 

My goal is to get my body into a reasonable state of fitness and health, reduce the flab and love handles around my waist, and increase the tone and bulk of my upper body muscles.  So can 2 days per week gym weight-training help me to achieve my goal, and can the use of supplements also benefit me?

 

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by simon43

[ronaldo0]

I would just keep working as you are and building up the amount off reps and then after a certain time if your not happy try the proteins etc.

I drink creatine and whey both in micro form. The creatine gives you the energy to push your muscles more than you would normally do and gives you some bulk due to water retention from what I can figure out. The whey protein is used for helping your muscles grow and gives them what they need to recover quickly and properly.( they wont grow without the hard work to get them there !)

[denby45]

I tried one of these regimes but gave it up. It said run 7 miles a day. By the end of the week I was 49 miles away from home.

 

Den.

[JayBird]

Hello,

 

it's great you are exercising and keepin at it. The most important aspect is to stay engaged and keep the routine going.

 

As for supplement, you don't really need any. Protein powder and such is mainly for people who do a lot of muscular exercises where they are ripping and building muscle continuously and require a high amount of protein for repairs. Couples with the desire to minimize calories.

 

You do not fall into that category. The better option for you would be a healthy high protein diet such as chicken breast or shrimp.

 

You may want to look into fat burners or thermogenics to help you burn calories when doing cardio tho.

 

Once you are at the gym for four hours a day six days a week (like me) then you can start looking at powders and other supplements.  

 

 

[akirasan]

46 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Thanks for your advice.  Due to work/time constraints, I can only go to the gym on Saturday and Sunday.  On Monday - Friday, I cycle every day and follow a home exercise, all-body regime, which is slowly ramping up the reps.

 

My diet as discussed in another thread, is calorie deficient, and I am slowly losing weight.  I typically eat 2 salads a day, a little chicken, lots of fruit, some nuts, raisins, green tea.

 

When I read the stories on the body-building websites about flabby guys transforming their bodies into muscle-bound warriors, (which BTW, I don't want to do), I note that they are all eating several servings of lean chicken or meat every day, and also taking supplements (whey, casein etc).

 

I do want to improve my abs, chest and arms, where the tone is currently not good, with puny muscles!  I know that only going to the gym 2 consecutive days each week is far from ideal, but I teach in the weekday evenings and it is not possible to change my schedule.

 

My goal is to get my body into a reasonable state of fitness and health, reduce the flab and love handles around my waist, and increase the tone and bulk of my upper body muscles.  So can 2 days per week gym weight-training help me to achieve my goal, and can the use of supplements also benefit me?

 

 

if you can only get to the gym for two consecutive days you can do lower body one day and upper body the next day.  It's less than ideal but it will help.  I know some guy said he disagrees with me and that's cool.  I disagree with him too lol..

It's easier for your body to learn and adapt to isolation exercises because you're using a smaller amount of muscles throughout the lift, therefore you're not taxing your central nervous system as much.  Compound exercises will stimulate your CNS more, triggering your body to release more testosterone and growth hormone causing muscle growth.  That's not to say isolation exercises are useless, they certainly have their place.  It depends on your goals.  

I guess another option for you is doing bodyweight circuits at home during the week like on nike training app and lift heavy once a week which is what I'm doing now, because I'm older now and easing into a full on weights program again.

Protein shakes serve two purposes.  If you're not getting enough protein from food they're beneficial because it's easier to drink a shake than add an additional meal.

The other purpose is to increase protein intake without upping carbs/calories too much..  If you're counting macros in your diet.  

I'd keep going as you're going, and if you start plateauing, then add protein and creatine supplements.

If you start taking these make sure you up your water intake as well.  You will start to retain a little bit of water but it's essential to drink more on creatine.  It'll help settle your stomach with the extra protein as well, and aid digestion. 

If you really want to try a protein shake then go right ahead, it won't do you any harm.  Better if you can get your nutrients from food though.  I used protein and creatine when I first started working out and made huge gains.    

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by akirasan

[PJ33]

I'm often asked what protein or supplements I'm taking. I answer truthfully: food and water (and yes you can still drink beer etc also). You don't need to take anything else, as it's entirely possible to be super-fit and have a great, toned body without filling yourself full of artificial products.

It sounds like you need to keep the focus on your cardio right now. That's what will strip away the fat from your waist. Taking supplements will only delay this effect. Reduction in body fat is the fastest, most beneficial and most noticeable thing you can do to improve your body-shape. Once you have the fat stripped away, then you can switch focus slightly and start working on increasing body tone. There is little point toning your stomach muscles at this stage when the fat is hiding the results.

I highly recommend picking up a copy of The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson - best book I ever read. You can find it on Amazon, Audible and there are even free PDF versions floating around.

 

Read that book and you will understand why what you're doing already is all you need to do. It's hugely important to know exactly why what you're doing is working and to have powerful reasons to keep doing it...

Paul

Edited March 4, 2017 by PJ33

[BigT73]

Protein supplements are pretty much a waste of money.   They are only beneficial if you are eating over 6 meals a day and still need the extra protein, this is mainly the aim for bodybuilders.   The bodybuilder diet when cutting for a show is to eliminate carbs.  This can be any type of wheat products, potatoes, rice and even fruit due to the amount of suger in them.  Doing this it will put your body in a ketogenic state, which means eating carbs creates insulin and insulin stores fat.  So without sugar as well your body will use its body fat for fuel hence the faster result in dieting.   Once you reach your goal you can balance out you fruit intake and even add a bit of carbs.

A basic diet is 4 meals with protein(any meat/bacon/eggs/dairy) and veg. Portion size of meat is about your palm size.  Its ok to eat a bit of fatty meat if you are feeling low in energy as this will not be stored as fat and burned during your bike rides.

 

Goodluck!!

[hdkane]

What is your age? HRT may be a big help...

[abab]

You of course need protein to build muscle and some steroids to feel stronger.

 

Start with testosterone, as you are old you might need it.

 

 

 

[tropo]

11 hours ago, akirasan said:

 
By that I mean lots of compound lifts.  Squats, deadlifts, bent over rows, military press etc.

 

 

1

You should not be recommending these lifts to a novice. They are a back injury waiting to happen. Bent over rows? No one should ever do them. Few exercises offer so little return at such a high risk.

 

Even if you're young and fit, these exercises require a lot of technique training. Older people without experience shouldn't be doing them at all.

 

If I had a choice between puny and flabby or having a bad back, I'd take the former.

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by tropo

[williet98248]

Don't know your age and your requirements vary with age.  I am 75.  I ride my bike about three days a week for around 100 kms  total.  I do weight training every other day on a four sequence working different muscles each sequence.  The bike burns cals and tones leg muscles and the weight training builds and tones muscle.  I keep a can of whey protein and add it to various foods if I think I am getting too many carbohydrates and not enough protein.  Most authorities say you should have a 30, 30, 40 percentage diet.  Protein, fats and carbs.  I throw a scoop of protein on top of my muesli as it is almost all carbs except for the no fat milk or yoghurt.  Figure out your maintenance amount of cals per day and adjust your diet for losing weight or maintaining.  If you are over fifty I recommend a book The Life Plan by Dr Jeffery Life.  If you can only get into the gym on weekends I recommend that you design a workout that  will use all your muscles in two days but  not the same muscle group on both days.  I have gone from 204 pounds to 180-182.  My initial weight loss was 16 pounds in six weeks and a few pounds a year since then.  Good on ya, keep up the good work.

[akirasan]

22 minutes ago, tropo said:

You should not be recommending these lifts to a novice. They are a back injury waiting to happen. Bent over rows? No one should ever do them. Few exercises offer so little return at such a high risk.

 

Even if you're young and fit, these exercises require a lot of technique training. Older people without experience shouldn't be doing them at all.

 

If I had a choice between puny and flabby or having a bad back, I'd take the former.

 

Your lower back is a stabiliser in the bent over row and not lifting the weight.   Your biceps and upper back do the lifting.  If you use proper form and appropriate weight it's not dangerous at all.  But you do make a good point.  If you cant be bothered learning how to perform the exercises properly, stick to aerobic dance class.

[tropo]

Just now, akirasan said:

Your lower back is a stabiliser in the bent over row and not lifting the weight.   Your biceps and upper back do the lifting.  If you use proper form and appropriate weight it's not dangerous at all.  But you do make a good point.  If you cant be bothered learning how to perform the exercises properly, stick to aerobic dance class.

 

I most certainly would prefer the OP attend aerobic dance classes than doing bent-over rows, deadlifts and military presses.

 

I'm very experienced when it comes to bent-over rows and I'm a form nazi. They are a back killer no matter how strictly you do them - reverse grip, overhand grip, or pendlay style. I've hardly ever seen anyone doing them strictly anyway, but it makes no difference. You have the weight pulling your vertebra sideways. Most people do a pseudo bent over, with the back at about 45 degrees, but it's just as bad.

 

I do RDL, squats and back extensions. Also military press, but I'm an advanced lifter who's been at these for 40 years... but I still have to be very careful as I've had my fair share of injuries over the years. If one must do a bent over movement - with DBs and supporting the upper back is the best way.

 

If you want to build muscle, as the OP has indicated he is, then doing light weight exercises because heavy weights will cause injury, is a silly concept. Choose exercises where the person can reach failure without risk of hernias or serious back injuries. There are a lot of compound exercises that can be done that will allow training to failure with little injury risk. You can do a lot of these without weights too.

 

Back extensions for lower back strength and supported rows or inverted rows (same movement with no lower back stress) for upper back strength are sufficient to keep the back healthy and strong, especially if you're starting up at an advanced age.

[simon43]

Well, having checked the prices of whey protein in the shop in Naypyidaw, there is no way that I am paying $128 USD for a pot of the stuff...

 

As for the weight-training, I'm certainly not looking to be Mr Universe in appearance.  It makes sense (from both a vanity and healthy viewpoint), to improve my muscle tone.

 

I visited the hotel gym for the first time to check it out. $4 USD for all-day use of the gym and large swimming pool, plus advice from an experienced gym trainer. With advice from this trainer and my good mate Dr Google, I will work out a 'modest' gym routine to work on my upper body, while I continue my daily home exercise routine, daily cycling and healthy diet.

 

I credit the city of Naypyidaw for my new-found interest in health and fitness, because were it not such a tediously boring place with zero culture and almost zero entertainment options, I probably would not have embarked on my fitness program.

 

There is minimal chance of me leaving Naypyidaw in the near future - the salary is too much of a 'sweetener' to stay working here :)

[akirasan]

Geez Tropo you'd think with over 40 years experience you'd have learned how to do bent over rows properly by now 

[Craig krup]

Spot reduction doesn't exist. I've got ripped abs (oooo! - "Upload a picture, big talk!!), and 7% bodyfat. But you can only reduce your overall fat, you can't target an area. Indeed, putting a big pad of muscle under lard will give you a bigger belly. Normally I'd say you don't need protein: nobody reasonably affluent and living in the West does, of they're eating a healthy diet. I eat (say) 160g of protein, or about 2.5g per kg of lean bodyweight, without even trying, just through wheat, oats, sardines, yogurt, eggs, milk, beans, peas and the like. In Thailand, though, you need to think a bit harder. There are a lot of empty calories in many of the things you'll probably eat, and any society which has rice as its staple carbohydrate tends to have protein issues. 

 

But - basically - eating things which are loaded with water and which take a long time to digest, and doing extended aerobic workouts using lots of muscles in a way that reduces local muscular damage, is the way to lose fat. Basically, live on big bowls of veg, fish, chicken and (I'd argue) rice (within reason), and speedmarch up a 15% slope on a treadmill. Bikes are dodgy. You're pushing a wall of air, so distance is meaningless. You can go a long way and burn no calories if you go slowly, and the difference between 15mph and 20mph is orders of magnitude. 

[Craig krup]

1 hour ago, simon43 said:

Well, having checked the prices of whey protein in the shop in Naypyidaw, there is no way that I am paying $128 USD for a pot of the stuff...

 

 

 

If you order it from myprotein.co.uk does customs charge you? My pal brought a rucksack of whey through Suvarnabhumi and nobody said anything. 

[ronaldo0]

14 minutes ago, Craig krup said:

 

If you order it from myprotein.co.uk does customs charge you? My pal brought a rucksack of whey through Suvarnabhumi and nobody said anything. 

Can get all kind off protein etc from lazada.

[simon43]

Quote

 

If you order it from myprotein.co.uk does customs charge you?
 

 

 

LoL, if I order anything from anyone, it never arrives here in Myanmar.......  I just fly to BKK every few months to buy essentials, such as bicycle wing mirrors, tape measures,  decent shirts etc etc.

 

I cycle every day because I must cycle - it is the only way for me to get to work!  

 

Most of the food that I eat here is fruit or vegetables. That is because there is a lack of decent cooked chicken or meat. (I have no cooking facilities).  As for wheatgrain bread etc, that is non-existant, only white plasterboard bread. There are no brown rices, just the white stuff.  I have some problems here to buy the food for a balanced, healthy diet, and I've started buying veges to make my own salads at home.

 

Can get all kind off protein etc from lazada.

 

Again, no good for me - I'm in Myanmar.  I'm in Thailand in a few weeks and I will be ordering some IT items (decent webcam, softbox, Sony mic etc) from Lazada that will be delivered to my hotel for me to take back to Myanmar.

Edited March 4, 2017 by simon43

[tropo]

3 hours ago, akirasan said:

Geez Tropo you'd think with over 40 years experience you'd have learned how to do bent over rows properly by now 

 

LOL - It was one of my strongest exercises, always performed with good form with very heavy weights. The problem is, it doesn't matter how well you perform them, it's a very flawed exercise with little benefit and high risk of injury. You're holding your spine in isometric tension, in a dangerous position, while you try to perform a movement that you can perform more efficiently other ways with no injury risk. It is one of those exercises that gets sloppy when you increase the weight, no matter how hard you try to correct it. If you stay super light, so as to stay in perfect form, you'll never stimulate the target muscles sufficiently for them to grow.

 

Which reminds me of people you see at the gym who do one-arm DB rows with really light weights - it's just a waste of time.

 

Even now, I could still perform the movement with a decent weight - but there's no point.

 

 

[ronaldo0]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

LoL, if I order anything from anyone, it never arrives here in Myanmar.......  I just fly to BKK every few months to buy essentials, such as bicycle wing mirrors, tape measures,  decent shirts etc etc.

 

I cycle every day because I must cycle - it is the only way for me to get to work!  

 

Most of the food that I eat here is fruit or vegetables. That is because there is a lack of decent cooked chicken or meat. (I have no cooking facilities).  As for wheatgrain bread etc, that is non-existant, only white plasterboard bread. There are no brown rices, just the white stuff.  I have some problems here to buy the food for a balanced, healthy diet, and I've started buying veges to make my own salads at home.

 

 

 

 

Again, no good for me - I'm in Myanmar.  I'm in Thailand in a few weeks and I will be ordering some IT items (decent webcam, softbox, Sony mic etc) from Lazada that will be delivered to my hotel for me to take back to Myanmar.

The protein is usually in the country already along with most of the other stuff so if you check the delivery times on the items they would have no problem being delivered to your hotel. Obviously they are slightly bulky to cart around. I usually buy 500g vx creatine and 1kg universal whey. Total around 1800 bht.

[tropo]

4 hours ago, simon43 said:

Well, having checked the prices of whey protein in the shop in Naypyidaw, there is no way that I am paying $128 USD for a pot of the stuff...

 

As for the weight-training, I'm certainly not looking to be Mr Universe in appearance.  It makes sense (from both a vanity and healthy viewpoint), to improve my muscle tone.

 

I visited the hotel gym for the first time to check it out. $4 USD for all-day use of the gym and large swimming pool, plus advice from an experienced gym trainer. With advice from this trainer and my good mate Dr Google, I will work out a 'modest' gym routine to work on my upper body, while I continue my daily home exercise routine, daily cycling and healthy diet.

 

I credit the city of Naypyidaw for my new-found interest in health and fitness, because were it not such a tediously boring place with zero culture and almost zero entertainment options, I probably would not have embarked on my fitness program.

 

There is minimal chance of me leaving Naypyidaw in the near future - the salary is too much of a 'sweetener' to stay working here :)

 

 

If you're not getting much meat, milk, eggs etc, then perhaps a protein supplement may help you. 

 

I would recommend you buy pure whey concentrate or isolate from Club Protein in Bangkok. It's what the fancy label protein brands put in their formulas then add sweeteners, flavours and other junk, and then double the price.

 

I mix the protein in a blender with milk, a ripe banana and frozen fruits such as strawberries and blueberries. If you buy the pure protein, you can always vary your flavours and use fresh/frozen fruit for natural flavours - something you can't do if you've bought sweet flavoured powder. A protein shake should be something you really enjoy and look forward to, not something unpleasant you have to guzzle down.

Edited March 4, 2017 by tropo

[elgenon]

I am very " older" and do a full body workout 3x a week (4 hours incl hour on cardio machine) plus run 2x/ week. I do take whey after the workouts. Filling so helps lose weight as well as build lean muscles. I have no medical problems and take no meds so the exercise might be helping me. Also at a good weight. I also recommend doing "horizontal" workouts as much as you can. 5555 Keeps your pipes clean and your outlook good.

[transam]

13 hours ago, akirasan said:

Your lower back is a stabiliser in the bent over row and not lifting the weight.   Your biceps and upper back do the lifting.  If you use proper form and appropriate weight it's not dangerous at all.  But you do make a good point.  If you cant be bothered learning how to perform the exercises properly, stick to aerobic dance class.

I don't agree....