Pheu Thai suggests mutual pardons, apologies necessary

[Bluespunk]

No pardons.

 

No amnesties.

[Baerboxer]

33 minutes ago, ramrod711 said:

Speaking of people seeking amnesty that are guilty of inciting violence.

 

 

 

Unfortunately he couldn't be there with them, nor stand shoulder to shoulder when the first shots were fired.

 

He had a prior shopping trip to Paris booked, as you do. Just couldn't get out of it. 

[AGareth2]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No pardons.

 

No amnesties.

does that include the Junta?

[Bluespunk]

Just now, AGareth2 said:

does that include the Junta?

For me, yep.

[Becker]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

If your talking about the actual coup.. no punishment there it was a reaction on the PTP and street violence (or at least can be defended it was for that). If you are talking for corruption and other stuff during their reign.. sure why not. 

So you do not want the junta to go to trial for the coup. Tell me, who decides if a coup is "righteous" or not, because surely you don't believe that every coup is excusable? So someone has to decide whether to prosecute or not. Who should that be?

[Becker]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Must be nice to have a secret armed wing that does your bidding and you can deny your connected to them. 

 

Not as nice as having the army at your disposal.

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, Becker said:

Not as nice as having the army at your disposal.

At least an army, its combatants can be identified. The killers that killed the kids in Trad made sure they were not recognized. I would call them terrorists at least the army plays by the rules. 

[Eric Loh]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

At least an army, its combatants can be identified. The killers that killed the kids in Trad made sure they were not recognized. I would call them terrorists at least the army plays by the rules. 

http://thailandchatter.com/archive/index.php/t-7135.html

 

Arrested and acquitted. 

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, Becker said:

So you do not want the junta to go to trial for the coup. Tell me, who decides if a coup is "righteous" or not, because surely you don't believe that every coup is excusable? So someone has to decide whether to prosecute or not. Who should that be?

 

I think coups that are not violent and help to solve a situation where a goverment lets its armed wing kill innocent protesters is excusable. There are of course coups that are not excusable but I havent seen one here in the last 10 years.

 

So far the coups have been sanctioned by you know who. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

http://thailandchatter.com/archive/index.php/t-7135.html

 

Arrested and acquitted. 

Yes because they hid themselves and made sure there was no evidence.. that is the blessing of having a secret armed wing to kill for you. It will be hard to trace back to you. But there has been enough evidence that red shirts are black shirts (proven in court) and other attacks are proven to be red shirts that its quite sure that the people who attacked here were also red shirts. Just not yet arrested.. maybe never.

 

So having a secret army is a good thing for the PTP. 

[Eric Loh]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes because they hid themselves and made sure there was no evidence.. that is the blessing of having a secret armed wing to kill for you. It will be hard to trace back to you. But there has been enough evidence that red shirts are black shirts (proven in court) and other attacks are proven to be red shirts that its quite sure that the people who attacked here were also red shirts. Just not yet arrested.. maybe never.

 

So having a secret army is a good thing for the PTP. 

A simple thank you note pointing out your mistake will do. You are welcome. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

A simple thank you note pointing out your mistake will do. You are welcome. 

No I am not mistaken.. this guy has been acquitted that does not mean I dont still think the red shirts are behind it, only a fool would say this is a false flag operation. 

 

As I said.. the pleasure of having a secret terrorist wing, no accountability, not traceable and the blind followers believe you. 

[tomta]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Usually suggested by the same people who like to pretend that Thaksin didn't control Yingluck's every act and was telling the truth when he said he's never ever done anything wrong, never ever. Believe that and you'll believe anything.

 

 

The idea that the general and Suthep were in cahoots and commuication on rolling out the coup was suggested by ... Suthep

 

[tomta]

4 hours ago, gamini said:

How can you possibly use the word democratically elected in Thailand. The voters do not have a choice of the kind of policies that they would like. They basically have a choice of three political parties which have exactly the same agenda. Conservative, no taxes for the rich, no help for the poor and designed to enrich their politicians . There is no Socialist party, workers party, Green party farmers party or any others. .

Simply not true. The PT, PPP, TRT were opportunists and essentially conservative but they had policies which they unveiled and enacted - 30 baht health scheme, village fund, rice pledging. Whether they were the right policies or not should be up to the Thai people to decide

[tomta]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I think coups that are not violent and help to solve a situation where a goverment lets its armed wing kill innocent protesters is excusable. There are of course coups that are not excusable but I havent seen one here in the last 10 years.

 

So far the coups have been sanctioned by you know who. 

Really? And who is that?

[Becker]

23 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I think coups that are not violent and help to solve a situation where a goverment lets its armed wing kill innocent protesters is excusable. There are of course coups that are not excusable but I havent seen one here in the last 10 years.

 

So far the coups have been sanctioned by you know who. 

I already know you think this coup is justified, but that's not what I was asking. I asked who decides whether a coup is justified or not? Because surely there must be some kind of judgement on a case by case basis, right?

 

The last part of your post cannot be discussed so you should not bring it up.

[tomta]

2 hours ago, ramrod711 said:

4 hours ago, aussieinthailand said:

FACT...    Did Suthep call on people to protest?  YES.  

Did he say there will be no election and called for voting polls to be locked and blocked and to stop people from voting?  YES.

Did Suthep publicly call on people for the taking of YL and her MP's and say they should move their families s it could be dangerous? YES.  So for me NO amnesty for the powerful that gave orders.

Name one military officer or politician that has been gaoled for the 2010 murder of protesters???

 

Speaking of people seeking amnesty that are guilty of inciting violence.

But completely avoiding aussie's questions by pictorially saying "But Thaksin".

[tomta]

37 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I think coups that are not violent and help to solve a situation where a goverment lets its armed wing kill innocent protesters is excusable. There are of course coups that are not excusable but I havent seen one here in the last 10 years.

 

So far the coups have been sanctioned by you know who. 

All coups are inherently violent. Actual violence does not have to occur but the threat of it must be there for the coup to succeed. If  a  group of  thugs (or well-intentioned people interested in saving me from my habit of spending my money on bad things, if you prefer) ask me to hand over my wallet  or else, and I do so for self-preservation, would you call that a peaceful event? The coup was violent. 

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, Becker said:

I already know you think this coup is justified, but that's not what I was asking. I asked who decides whether a coup is justified or not? Because surely there must be some kind of judgement on a case by case basis, right?

 

The last part of your post cannot be discussed so you should not bring it up.

Agreed

 

If a coup is real bad there will be an uprising.. (has happened here before) if its generally accepted there is not.. In this case there is not enough resentment as a large part agreed with the coup and many did not feel strong enough against it. (though i am quite sure the PM is now a lot less popular as when he started and I feel the same)

[impulse]

I wonder if the apologies come with a return of any ill gotten gains?  With penalties and interest?

 

If anyone deserves an apology, it won't be a mutual thing.  The Thai people are the ones being robbed of their chance at a decent quality of life. 

[wakeupplease]

You can see from a mile away why nothing ever works in this country and Bulls rear end stuff rules, one or two simply cannot see the wood for the trees. Suthep admitted he and pm spoke (another word for planned) way before he got the team out to protest.

 

Obsessive compulsive disorder comes to mind with red, black shirts always being used by some as an excuse. Both sides killed in events since 1945, but one side has more than the other and jailed many for simply expressing their thoughts. Do not just look at your last ten years, as with research and events over a period shows who is to blame. Far to many are either brain washed or under educated if you cannot see the truth.

 

Your skipping a few things.. the protest and killings started before the voting. Innocent protesters and children killed by the redshirts.

 

Yes you are right on that it started in 1945 and the red shirts had not been invented then. So stop blaming one side only. Ref History.

 

Amnesty for all is the only way forward if it does not happen well life in a certain country I can think of will be hell while you are a live and the same when you die.

 

You cannot change history but you can change the future, but only if you forgive and forget and work together.

 

To End

 

I recently sat with a trade minister who met the PM  last year, his thoughts where, they may get democracy but there will be another coup along soon after that for sure. That says a lot for international investment prospects. with VAT going up, tourists going down, services being cut, coffers are emptying. Trade wars looming 300% import tax will mean rice gets the same tax in other countries and will be buying from countries who do not tax exported goods so high. Welcome to the real world in 2017 CHANGE is coming fast

 

Sort of says it all, NK2 > China springs to mind, so sadly you will never be free in this country I am thinking about, shame as it is beautiful but very very corrupt

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, tomta said:

All coups are inherently violent. Actual violence does not have to occur but the threat of it must be there for the coup to succeed. If  a  group of  thugs (or well-intentioned people interested in saving me from my habit of spending my money on bad things, if you prefer) ask me to hand over my wallet  or else, and I do so for self-preservation, would you call that a peaceful event? The coup was violent. 

Its violent when its really violent and implied violence is still no real violence. 

If a Dr puts you under observation because of self harm.. would you call that violent.. its nice to make up stories.. but I can do so too. It just depends on what story you believe. I believe in an other story then you do. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, wakeupplease said:

You can see from a mile away why nothing ever works in this country and Bulls rear end stuff rules, one or two simply cannot see the wood for the trees. Suthep admitted he and pm spoke (another word for planned) way before he got the team out to protest.

 

Obsessive compulsive disorder comes to mind with red, black shirts always being used by some as an excuse. Both sides killed in events since 1945, but one side has more than the other and jailed many for simply expressing their thoughts. Do not just look at your last ten years, as with research and events over a period shows who is to blame. Far to many are either brain washed or under educated if you cannot see the truth.

 

Your skipping a few things.. the protest and killings started before the voting. Innocent protesters and children killed by the redshirts.

 

Yes you are right on that it started in 1945 and the red shirts had not been invented then. So stop blaming one side only. Ref History.

 

Amnesty for all is the only way forward if it does not happen well life in a certain country I can think of will be hell while you are a live and the same when you die.

 

You cannot change history but you can change the future, but only if you forgive and forget and work together.

 

To End

 

I recently sat with a trade minister who met the PM  last year, his thoughts where, they may get democracy but there will be another coup along soon after that for sure. That says a lot for international investment prospects. with VAT going up, tourists going down, services being cut, coffers are emptying. Trade wars looming 300% import tax will mean rice gets the same tax in other countries and will be buying from countries who do not tax exported goods so high. Welcome to the real world in 2017 CHANGE is coming fast

 

Sort of says it all, NK2 > China springs to mind, so sadly you will never be free in this country I am thinking about, shame as it is beautiful but very very corrupt

I disagree with all my heart.. and I also don't believe your stories about the trade minister.. you...   Your one of these guys that loves to pass himself off as important and educated so your points hold more value.. you make me laugh. Your also contradicting yourself quite nicely.. change is coming fast.. and a bit later an other coup will happen.. does not sound like a lot of change. 

 

An amnesty is the last thing we should do here.. the problem is that politicians know they can get away with everything and there are never any consequences to their actions. If you keep forgiving them they will never learn. We have seen that Jattuporn only learned after he really was in jail and his bail was rejected a few times. After that he finally behaved. Before that he kept rabble rousing and breaking the agreements. 

 

Why because he thought there would be no consequences.. now as long as they constantly get bailed out they will not think about the risks and play nice they will get even more violent and dangerous because they got off last time too.. why not next time again. 

[wakeupplease]

See what I mean,

 

English is not a strong point here again those trees stop you seeing the wood, There Will be no change in one country but in others its happening now big time.

 

Trade Minster

 

What you believe is what you believe and that's, up to you, but sadly for you it happened and there where 3 other witnesses to it and no trees.

 

"Your one of these guys that loves to pass himself off as important and educated so your points hold more value"

 

No I am not important, just a normal guy who went to a normal school with normal people but when he wants to know something finds out by doing research and always has an open mind until prof is found.

 

Politicians and the others are all the same, not all are corrupt but by now I would hope all had learned their lesson and for the sake of the country, its reputation but more so the people get on and do the job for one and all and not for the few, If they have not then what the trade minster said will happen No Change in this country. But here its a blame one side all the time formula of bull.

 

Did you notice that when intelligent conversion (written in this case) runs out in, derogatory remarks start appearing. Very Sad for people who do this, just talk and express yourself with out slagging off if you can.

 

My old mum RIP top me many years ago, stupid is stupid and you can't change that. I am still trying to work out what she meant. but I believe I am close to understanding her now.

[tomta]

39 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its violent when its really violent and implied violence is still no real violence. 

If a Dr puts you under observation because of self harm.. would you call that violent.. its nice to make up stories.. but I can do so too. It just depends on what story you believe. I believe in an other story then you do. 

Yes, if a Dr put me under restraint because of self harm and I resisted being put under restraint, violence would have to be used. Violence - and the threat of violence - can be justified, I have no problem with that. You think that the threat of violence  - the coup - was necessary. I don't. However, there were also many instances of implied violence and, I would say, actual violence in the aftermath of the coup. People were taken for so-called attitude adjustment. Why did they go? Because they understood the implicit threat. If you read Pravit Rohjanaphruk's stories about his two attitude adjustment sessions you will see that no physical violence was used. Psychological violence was used though. As I said, implied violence is real violence.Without  the recipient actually believing in the possibility that violence will be meted out to him, then the recipient will not do as he is told. If the redshirts had not believed that the possibility of real death or physical injury was possible, they would have maintained visible opposition to the coup. BUt they had a history of violence to remind them that the threat of violence was not an empty one.

 

[tomta]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Agreed

 

If a coup is real bad there will be an uprising.. (has happened here before) if its generally accepted there is not.. In this case there is not enough resentment as a large part agreed with the coup and many did not feel strong enough against it. (though i am quite sure the PM is now a lot less popular as when he started and I feel the same)

That is an interesting definition of what constitutes a good coup. The people who feel strongly enough win. 

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, tomta said:

That is an interesting definition of what constitutes a good coup. The people who feel strongly enough win. 

 

IMHO a good coup is a coop with no loss of life and not opposed too much. That means it was a good coop and has a lot of support opposed to coup fought with lots of life.. that is a bad coup with lot of resistance. 

[wakeupplease]

3 minutes ago, tomta said:

Yes, if a Dr put me under restraint because of self harm and I resisted being put under restraint, violence would have to be used. Violence - and the threat of violence - can be justified, I have no problem with that. You think that the threat of violence  - the coup - was necessary. I don't. However, there were also many instances of implied violence and, I would say, actual violence in the aftermath of the coup. People were taken for so-called attitude adjustment. Why did they go? Because they understood the implicit threat. If you read Pravit Rohjanaphruk's stories about his two attitude adjustment sessions you will see that no physical violence was used. Psychological violence was used though. As I said, implied violence is real violence.Without  the recipient actually believing in the possibility that violence will be meted out to him, then the recipient will not do as he is told. If the redshirts had not believed that the possibility of real death or physical injury was possible, they would have maintained visible opposition to the coup. BUt they had a history of violence to remind them that the threat of violence was not an empty one.

 

There was no need for a coup, and violence proves nothing but thuggery in small minds. in 2010 i walked past and through the so called red shirts and they where fine with me even getting out of my way and giving us directions. I spoke to a few at this time and asked what was going on and understood their answers, very much the same as any other countries problems. In 14 two days and power was seized nothing could be achieved in two days and the consensus of opinion outside is it was planned. It was. There are over 67 million in the country but the minority rule and have done for years, what is fair in that?

[robblok]

36 minutes ago, wakeupplease said:

See what I mean,

 

English is not a strong point here again those trees stop you seeing the wood, There Will be no change in one country but in others its happening now big time.

 

Trade Minster

 

What you believe is what you believe and that's, up to you, but sadly for you it happened and there where 3 other witnesses to it and no trees.

 

"Your one of these guys that loves to pass himself off as important and educated so your points hold more value"

 

No I am not important, just a normal guy who went to a normal school with normal people but when he wants to know something finds out by doing research and always has an open mind until prof is found.

 

Politicians and the others are all the same, not all are corrupt but by now I would hope all had learned their lesson and for the sake of the country, its reputation but more so the people get on and do the job for one and all and not for the few, If they have not then what the trade minster said will happen No Change in this country. But here its a blame one side all the time formula of bull.

 

Did you notice that when intelligent conversion (written in this case) runs out in, derogatory remarks start appearing. Very Sad for people who do this, just talk and express yourself with out slagging off if you can.

 

My old mum RIP top me many years ago, stupid is stupid and you can't change that. I am still trying to work out what she meant. but I believe I am close to understanding her now.

At least I dont start off insulting people who don't agree with me like you did.. you call that intelligent conversation.. I don't.

 

Your the one constantly calling people stupid who don't agree with them.. not much intelligence in that.

 

I stick with my opinion that amnesties of politicians and no punishment will only make it worse next time because they know there is no punishment. Jattuporn proved my point.. not sure if you followed it.. but he was breaking his word and agreements all the tine.. and got put in jail.. bail not agreed for a few times.. and after that he was changed and kept to his word. Because he knew there was a price to pay. 

 

Thai politicians will keep on breaking the laws.. and being corrupt until they understand there is a price to pay.. that wont happen if they get let off all the time. 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, wakeupplease said:

There was no need for a coup, and violence proves nothing but thuggery in small minds. in 2010 i walked past and through the so called red shirts and they where fine with me even getting out of my way and giving us directions. I spoke to a few at this time and asked what was going on and understood their answers, very much the same as any other countries problems. In 14 two days and power was seized nothing could be achieved in two days and the consensus of opinion outside is it was planned. It was. There are over 67 million in the country but the minority rule and have done for years, what is fair in that?

 

Not what other people saw.. the black-shirts have been proven.. it has been proven they shot at the army.. but sure.. you know better. 

 

in 2014.. many poor anti goverment protesters died at the hands of the red shirts while the capo led by the honorable Charmlem told them to go home he could not protect them (of course not he was not going to help them again his allies killing them). 

 

Of course no coup was needed to stop this corrupt goverment with their secret army let loose on the anti government protesters. No real democratic governments have secret armed wings.. but the PTP does.. and they are not afraid to use and support them. Had they not done this the army would not have a excuse for the coup.